Politics of grading.
Bankerbob56
Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭
Over the years I have heard a few of the Registry Set players complain about their coins "not making the grade".
While my Washington quarter set "howaboutthesequarters" is only ranked 9th on the current finest list, I am not too concerned about moving up the registry boards. I do like nice high-end coins, but not just to move up the list. Others, however, strive to move up and are apparently convinced that "who" sends the coin in for grading is often times a deciding factor on the ultimate grade. Having seen some of the coins with top pop grades, I too wonder, how did that coin get that grade! Especially if I see much nicer coins with lower grades. For the sake of this discussion, please spare me rancor about grading being an opinion, and all of the other "noise" associated with grading.
Do any of you think that the "who" in the coin submission impacts final grades?
I'll answer first.
Yes, I do believe that it does.....
While my Washington quarter set "howaboutthesequarters" is only ranked 9th on the current finest list, I am not too concerned about moving up the registry boards. I do like nice high-end coins, but not just to move up the list. Others, however, strive to move up and are apparently convinced that "who" sends the coin in for grading is often times a deciding factor on the ultimate grade. Having seen some of the coins with top pop grades, I too wonder, how did that coin get that grade! Especially if I see much nicer coins with lower grades. For the sake of this discussion, please spare me rancor about grading being an opinion, and all of the other "noise" associated with grading.
Do any of you think that the "who" in the coin submission impacts final grades?
I'll answer first.
Yes, I do believe that it does.....
What we've got here is failure to communicate.....
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Comments
I am sure that PCGS is aware of how important it is to not give this impression of their service. Continuous due diligence is required on their part to assure the rest of their clientele that coins are graded on merit, not relationships.
Just my two cents worth....
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
<< <i>I have heard it been said... the graders do not know the source of the coins? True? >>
That is what I have always heard. I think certain people seem to get those choice grades due to their talent
and the number of coins they go through to find those high end coins.
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>If you know the series and believe in the coin, you will eventually get it in the right holder. I would like some of those back that I gave up on and found out later they either upgraded or got in the right holder. >>
I take a different tact now, for coins I'm keeping. If I think they are under-graded I send to CAC and if it stickers, I just put it away for later as I know if I take a couple shots at the services eventually they'll upgrade, if it doesn't sticker then I know it's the old, "ownership adds a point" phenomenon
There are really no politics of grading ... it is what it is ... 2-3 really experienced people's opinion on any given day.
I do it myself. I sometimes look at coins critically, and sometimes liberally, never massively different, but I can sway between an AU53 and a 55 for example, or VG10 or F12...It's never XF40 or AU50, though.
If you surround your monster quality coin in a large submission with essentially a pile of junk, the likely result is a lower grade for your monster quality coin than if it was submitted in a large group of wonderful coins, one nicer than the next. There are many reasons for this, including the fact that grading, once again, is "an art" and the graders attention will be maintained to a higher level when he/she is reviewing a submission filled with wonderful coins.
There are myriad principles to follow in the "science" of coin submitting. I have probably submitted the better part of one million coins myself over the past 16+ years with PCGS. Many principles have been learned through those submissions. In fact, I could write a book on them all if I wanted to.
Just like there are world class graders in the coin biz and world class experts in a particular coin series, etc., I also believe there are "world class" coin submittors. I know of a few to be sure and I personally work very hard to make sure "my game" is at the highest level possible as well.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
I think of myself as an above average grader when dealing with brand new out-of-the-box Roosevelt Dimes. I searched about 3,000+ Dimes to find 10 or so top quality specimens to send in and really believed that I had 10 2008-D's that would grade MS67FB-MS68FB. Here are the last 4 Dimes in that submission:
7 12XXXX77 394930 2008-D 10C USA MS68FB
8 12XXXX78 394929 2008-D 10C USA MS67
9 12XXXX79 394929 2008-D 10C USA MS67
10 12XXXX80 394930 2008-D 10C USA MS64FB
Total Items: 23
Date Received: 1/13/2009
Date Shipped: 2/10/2009
Now how do you suppose that Paul, having collected Roosevelt Dimes for a few years, sending in virtually Brand New Dimes, would get 2 different Dimes, 4 full grades apart, so close together on 1 submission. Now I do not own the coins at this time and have no idea where they are to compare them, and for HIPPA laws (Look it up if you have to, it is medical
Later, Paul.
David
<< <i>It occurred to me tonight that while coin grading itself is an "art and not a science", coin submitting is more of "a science and not an art". I'll give you one example ...
If you surround your monster quality coin in a large submission with essentially a pile of junk, the likely result is a lower grade for your monster quality coin than if it was submitted in a large group of wonderful coins, one nicer than the next. There are many reasons for this, including the fact that grading, once again, is "an art" and the graders attention will be maintained to a higher level when he/she is reviewing a submission filled with wonderful coins.
There are myriad principles to follow in the "science" of coin submitting. I have probably submitted the better part of one million coins myself over the past 16+ years with PCGS. Many principles have been learned through those submissions. In fact, I could write a book on them all if I wanted to.
Just like there are world class graders in the coin biz and world class experts in a particular coin series, etc., I also believe there are "world class" coin submitters. I know of a few to be sure and I personally work very hard to make sure "my game" is at the highest level possible as well.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin >>
Well said Wondercoin. I had a discussion with one of the leading submitters/graders in the country back in 2004 and he explained to me that they closely watched who was grading in any particular week. They kept scorecards on coins vs. graders. It is truly a science. It also doesn't hurt if you are a big time submitter with lots of high powered stuff. I often noted back in the 1988-1989 era that major auction submissions from the top players at that time were often 20 to 100 coins long (applicable to only NGC serial numbers). I was often surprised at the grades some of those high serial numbered coins received. In my mind I don't see how the graders couldn't be aware of the owner of a high powered submission....or at least the fact that this owner is a high powered submitter and therefore a major revenue source for the TPG. Of course that was in the days of nearly 100% raw coins going in. Now it's mostly a game of regrades. But the tenets are still similar. To answer the OP's original question....my opinion is YES, even if it just skews their odds in their favor from say 50-50.... to 55-45 or 60-40.
If you know the series and believe in the coin, you will eventually get it in the right holder. I would like some of those back that I gave up on and found out later they either upgraded or got in the right holder.
Yes, but how long do you try for? 5 yrs, 10 yrs, 15 yrs? I had some coins I tried 4X over 5-15 years. I believed in them. The person that got the upgrades were the ones right after me....lol. At some point you just run out of time and/or money. I would also submit that if it takes you more than 3 submissions to get the grade you wanted or thought you deserved.....it was probably the WRONG grade. Getting an upgrade after 3, 4, 5, or even 10 or more attempts is not the right grade. It is certainly the wrong grade if it only occurred <25% of the time. But, the coin will stay in that holder and the market will perceive it as a reasonable grade, in most cases. A coin is graded correctly imo if it comes back the same grade at least 50-65% of the time. Those coins that come back the same grade <75% of the time (3 out of 4 or better) are actually quite hard to find. Those are solid for the grade coins (or PQish) that nearly most everyone would recognize as such. It tends to be those coins that get submitted 5X to 20X over the years until they achieve an upgrade under ideal circumstances. Sending a coin in for a cross is not a legitimate grade assignment/evaluation. I wouldn't even count those as that's also a political thing. The only thing that should really count are regrades of the TPG's holders or raw coins/crack outs.
That is what I was hoping board members might do. Thank you David for your "$200" comment as well.
And Roadrunner's stories are "right on" as well. But, I do have this story for RR....
I once bought a near six figure coin for a customer that finally upgraded on the 63rd time through the grading company (edited to add that this is obviously hearsay and I obviously did not see 62 separate submission forms spanning several years, but knowing the submittor it is certainly believable). And, the original submittor finally sold it after the 62nd (failed) attempt for a price close to half way between the two grade points. It upgraded for the next submittor the first time through! Anyway, the upgrade made the pop of this cool coin 3/0 and I was lucky enough to be offered two out of the three coins in the world at the same time. including the one that took 63 tries to finally upgrade. They were priced at about the same price and I personally liked the one that took 63 tries better than the one that worked the first time through! I gave all of the details to my customer (would you want to find out later that a coin you bought took 63x to make the grade!) and he had a neat take on the subject. He said that the since the guy who tried the one coin 62x was a world class upgrader, he would simply assume the coin was solid for the grade it had finally upgraded to and so if I liked that one better, he was perfectly fine going with that one. I performed a little more due diligence (that I will tell over some beers) and then bought the one that took 63x to upgrade over the one that worked the first time through. Interesting, both of these coins sold at a major public auction since that time and the one I picked for that customer sold for a lot more money than the other coin. My customer made a great return on this coin and you should have seen the auction write up on it!
Moral of this story ... never give up on a coin you truly believe in (but only if you are a world class grader; otherwise the grading bills might eat you alive)!
Wondercoin
Same happens on CAC submissions. Send in 1 coin, good luck! Send in 3 coins, 2 ok amd one really nice, good luck. Send in 6 really nice coins, you will get 3+ stickers.
Grading is as much ranking and context as it is a pure evaluation. I do the same thing when seeing a lot of coins at a show...I tend to gravitate to the nicer ones of what I saw, not necessarily the nicest ones in an absolute context.
<< <i>Over the years I have heard a few of the Registry Set players complain about their coins "not making the grade".
While my Washington quarter set "howaboutthesequarters" is only ranked 9th on the current finest list, I am not too concerned about moving up the registry boards. I do like nice high-end coins, but not just to move up the list. Others, however, strive to move up and are apparently convinced that "who" sends the coin in for grading is often times a deciding factor on the ultimate grade. Having seen some of the coins with top pop grades, I too wonder, how did that coin get that grade! Especially if I see much nicer coins with lower grades. For the sake of this discussion, please spare me rancor about grading being an opinion, and all of the other "noise" associated with grading.
Do any of you think that the "who" in the coin submission impacts final grades?
I'll answer first.
Yes, I do believe that it does..... >>
I believe it does as well but not for what some may consider the "obvious reasons".
I believe it does solely because if a person KNOWS their series than they also KNOW what the best coin to submit is when they find it. By that, I don't mean "The Best of Five" or even the "The Best of Fifty" but more like "The Best of the Thousands that have been Viewed".
The name is LEE!
I think Wondercoin makes some great points. Think about it before you send in your next submission.
I love Steve's attitude. That's what it's all about.
Wondercoin
I always send my best stuff to set up a monster. Once you've shown them several 67 plus coins and the next one is better...its 68 time.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
<< <i> I have probably submitted the better part of one million coins myself over the past 16+ years with PCGS.
Wondercoin >>
So every business day for 16 years, you have somehow sent in 30 coins per hour (looked up coin number. put coin in approved baggie in
approved flip, filled out form) 8 hours a day, 5 days a week...AND HAD TIME FOR NOTHING ELSE.... amazing
Modern bulk accounts for a sizeable percentage of the coins. I can submit 1,000 coins and write them up in less than 30 minutes.
Wondercoin
I have a 65RB that I can't stand to look at. I don't know what to do with it because it seems wrong to inflict it on someone else. Just "tuition" if you will.
The moral of the story here is, it is the coin and how you feel about it first. The grade, while very important is 2nd to those considerations. I think this is the best way to enjoy your coins. They are coins first that happen to be graded. Not numbered slabs that happen to have coins in them.
(Yipes, that sounded a little harsh but just trying to make a point)
Learn the series and what TPG looks for in connection with those series.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Wondercoin is 100 percent on the mark.
I always send my best stuff to set up a monster. Once you've shown them several 67 plus coins and the next one is better...its 68 time.
This idea of "set up a monster" really intrigues me! How do you set up a coin? Submit several 67's and the next one is a 68? What if they look at your "68" first, and they call it a 67? Are the rest of your 67's then 66's? Obviously, I lack the sophistication of many submitters.....
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
Sorry, but can you explain how this happens? Just does not pass the smell test.
Me personally - I do less of the constant submitting and simply wait more time to resubmit many of my coins - especially those I am keeping in a set I have no interest in selling. I have a number of coins in my collection that took 10 years to achieve the grade I was looking for. I spoke about this yesterday with a fellow collector. He had a coin that would be worth a fortune extra if it upgraded. I told him I thought his chances were good to achieve the upgrade if he gave himself a 5-10 year time horizon to achieve the upgrade.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
I have the opposite problem,,,,always getting too HIGH a grade for my lowball set.
But, since I'm just a "renter" of the coins it really does not matter in the long run for me.
I understand the dollars and cents of regrading but just don't play the game. The coins are what they are and no more or less.
bob
impartial service look at the coins.
Almost all my coins are CAC for this exact reason.
CAC is not perfect but in general their coins are all strong for the grade
which is what you want.
Most NGC/CAC coins will never cross in the holder but maybe 75% will
if you crack them and have the look PCGS likes, not too dark and more.
My last set of reconsiderations did not do well and only one of ten upgraded, and all were either CAC or low SN from way back.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
If that does not work you can crack it. However it usually works better when the coins you want to upgrade are sent in with others that do not matter as much.
it is a tough game. I find that I need to give my coins to others to do this rather than submitting myself. Sure I try but I do not well.
You have to eat all the fees and play the game. A 62 to a 63 should be one of the easier coins to work.
mostly CAC coins. There is 100% no favoritism there, no regrades etc.
While you might not always agree with CAC you will 90% of the time.
If more and more people only purchased CAC coins it would force the
grading service to be much more consistent and careful as to which coins they
upgrade. Look at NGC. Their coins usually bring substantially less.
We all know why. Many CAC coins are cracked to try and get the next grade.
That is common sense as people who crack want to try with the best coins.
Stick with PCGS/CAC and forget the rest. There are enough of these for
any budget, and yes, you can build top sets or close using all CAC as I have
done it. The dealers would not like this but they would adjust. If more and more
customers demand CAC they would have to.
Another way that PCGS could stop all the nonsense would be to only use
their secure service. I believe this service will 100% identify a coin that was previously graded if it comes in to be graded raw. They can't do this as the grading fees would drop substantially.
1) Submitting a coin which is at the high-end of the grade, with those of the same date/MM which are average for the grade. It makes the high end coin look like it should be the next grade up (usually applied to MS coins).
2) Submitting in bulk.
3) Submitting the same coin multiple times (the old crack-out game)
Wondercoin is 100 percent on the mark.
I always send my best stuff to set up a monster. Once you've shown them several 67 plus coins and the next one is better...its 68 time.
This idea of "set up a monster" really intrigues me! How do you set up a coin? Submit several 67's and the next one is a 68? What if they look at your "68" first, and they call it a 67? Are the rest of your 67's then 66's? Obviously, I lack the sophistication of many submitters.....
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
Wondercoin is 100 percent on the mark.
I always send my best stuff to set up a monster. Once you've shown them several 67 plus coins and the next one is better...its 68 time.
This idea of "set up a monster" really intrigues me! How do you set up a coin? Submit several 67's and the next one is a 68? What if they look at your "68" first, and they call it a 67? Are the rest of your 67's then 66's? Obviously, I lack the sophistication of many submitters.....
Still no one has attempted to "splain this one to me Lucy?!"
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
Wondercoin is 100 percent on the mark.
I always send my best stuff to set up a monster. Once you've shown them several 67 plus coins and the next one is better...its 68 time.
This idea of "set up a monster" really intrigues me! How do you set up a coin? Submit several 67's and the next one is a 68? What if they look at your "68" first, and they call it a 67? Are the rest of your 67's then 66's? Obviously, I lack the sophistication of many submitters.....
Still no one has attempted to "splain this one to me Lucy?!"
I will answer as to how I have set up submissions in the past. I also imagine that there are a number of different "set up" strategies and that some might actually work.
Back when I would send in 20-40 high grade, really nicely toned Roosevelt dimes and Washington quarters on an invoice there would always seem to be one or two coins that I thought were undergraded both in absolute terms and in relative terms compared to the other coins on the invoice.
For example, as part of an invoice I might have had five wonderfully toned 1949-D Washington quarters that all came back MS66, but I thought two were MS66 one was a liner MS66/67 and two were slam dunk MS67 coins. I would crack the coins out and later resubmit the two MS66 coins on an invoice with some or all of the undergraded coins. In this example I resubmitted all five coins together and only included those five coins on the invoice because I wanted the graders to be looking at only wonderfully toned, high grade Washington quarters that all had the same strike characteristics. I would crack the coins out and then put what I thought was the weaker MS66 first, the stronger MS66 second and then follow that up with the liner MS66/67 and the weaker and stronger MS67 coins. The flips would be labeled as "coin one", "coin two", etc...In other words, from least to greatest in terms of grade. My thinking was that the two MS66 pieces were no brainer examples of really choice MS66 coins and they would easily regrade as MS66. The liner MS66/67 would immediately follow with the goal that it might pop to MS67 because it was clearly nicer than the pair of choice MS66 coins that had just been graded and, if it didn't pop to MS67 and stayed MS66, that it would form an upper limit in the minds of the graders as to what an MS66 could be with anything nicer receiving a higher grade. Then the two MS67 coins would follow.
I had success using this strategy, but keep in mind that success using this strategy does not prove the strategy works. Rather, these coins might have truly been liner coins in the eyes of PCGS graders and on any given day these coins might have had more wobble in their grade than the vast bulk of coins that go through the grading process. Therefore, even without the strategy they might have received the higher grade upon resubmission.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson