Heritage NEWP: Antiochus VIII Epiphanes-Grypus (125-96 BC). AR Tetradrachm
Zohar
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Bought this on last night's Heritage auction as another Seleucid piece. While I didn't see this one in hand, it seems to have the iridescent eye appeal.
SELEUCID KINGDOM. Antiochus VIII Epiphanes-Grypus (125-96 BC). AR Tetradrachm (28mm, 16.62 gm, 12h). Akko-Ptolemaïs, ca. 121/0-113 BC. Obv: Diademed head of Antiochus right Rev: Zeus Uranius standing left, holding star and scepter; M to outer left; all within laurel wreath. HGC 9, 1197h. SC 2335.2. Toned. NGC Choice AU* 5/5 - 5/5.
SELEUCID KINGDOM. Antiochus VIII Epiphanes-Grypus (125-96 BC). AR Tetradrachm (28mm, 16.62 gm, 12h). Akko-Ptolemaïs, ca. 121/0-113 BC. Obv: Diademed head of Antiochus right Rev: Zeus Uranius standing left, holding star and scepter; M to outer left; all within laurel wreath. HGC 9, 1197h. SC 2335.2. Toned. NGC Choice AU* 5/5 - 5/5.
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Zohar: <<Bought this on last night's Heritage auction as another Seleucid piece>>
This is an interesting coin. Admittedly, I do not know much about it. Mostly, I write about coins that were minted from 1400 to the early 20th century. Even so, I wonder if Zohar or other members of this forum bid on many coins, from various societies and time periods, in this Heritage auction. I viewed many of the coins, though was unable to travel to CA this time. I am curious as to the outcomes of the auciton.
Did forum members find the prices realized to be strong in their respective areas of interest. I particularly like the following coin:
Rare 1681 silver Halfcrown of King Charles II, with mark of the Royal African Company
Choice, historical British Coins Auctioned in New York
The Fabulous Eric Newman Collection, part 9: European Coins
<< <i>Zohar: <<Bought this on last night's Heritage auction as another Seleucid piece>>
This is an interesting coin. Admittedly, I do not know much about it. Mostly, I write about coins that were minted from 1400 to the early 20th century. Even so, I wonder if Zohar or other members of this forum bid on many coins, from various societies and time periods, in this Heritage auction. I viewed many of the coins, though was unable to travel to CA this time. I am curious as to the outcomes of the auciton.
Did forum members find the prices realized to be strong in their respective areas of interest. I particularly like the following coin:
Rare 1681 silver Halfcrown of King Charles II, with mark of the Royal African Company
Choice, historical British Coins Auctioned in New York
The Fabulous Eric Newman Collection, part 9: European Coins >>
I bid on four ancients, winning two and losing two. Of the two I lost, one went for slightly more than I expected but not unreasonably high. The other went for an extremely strong price, on a book bid - someone clearly wanted it badly! Of the two I won, one was an impulse buy as it was very inexpensive for the type. My main focus for the auction went for 40% discount to my prepared max bid.
Of the coins I was not personally interested in, prices were overall rather strong. There were several standout pieces with exceptionally high prices, likely due at least in part to their NGC slab grades. There is a shifting tide of preference emerging within the ancient market where buyers are preferring coins that are already slabbed. This is currently limited primarily to the US market, however, and most major auctions still occur in Europe so there will likely be a bifurcation of collecting approaches (and prices to a degree) for the foreseeable future.
My core collection - Holy Roman Empire Talers saw some strong bids for the choice material. Examples -
Hogmouth Taler - NGC MS-65
1857 2 Taler Franz Joseph PCGS MS-63
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
SmEagle1795: <<There is a shifting tide of preference emerging within the ancient market where buyers are preferring coins that are already slabbed. This is currently limited primarily to the US market ...>>
Do a large percentage of U.S. citizens who collect ancient coins now prefer certified coins, or just a growing number from a small percentage to a slighter larger small percentage?
SmEagle1795: << ... most major auctions still occur in Europe so there will likely be a bifurcation of collecting approaches (and prices to a degree) for the foreseeable future>>
Are most European collectors of ancients uncomfortable with the idea of encapsulation?
Would you guess that European collectors of ancient are opposed to or baffled by the grades assigned ATS, even if such coins were not encapsulated? (I am not criticizing the grades of ancients assigned ATS, which may be fair. I am asking about the current perspectives of European collectors.)
Do you know any European collectors who prefer to buy ancients in NGC holders?
Zohar: <<Middle tier has lost momentum while choice coins are getting a premium.>>
How are "middle tier" coins defined in this context? Are prices for these, whatever they are, holding steady?
EVP: << a Hogmouth taler in 65 seems to be stuck at the mid-3k range for the past 2 years>>
Do buyers tend to accept the PCGS or ATS grades for these, and figure bids without thinking much about the physical characteristics of the respective coins. In another words, is EVP saying that the holders are and have been worth prices in the mid 3k range? Is EVP referring to average quality for PCGS or ATS graded "MS-65" Hogmouth Talers?
Do such coins with apparent, medium to deep natural toning command a premium over coins that apparently were dipped within the last half-century?
Rare 1681 silver Halfcrown of King Charles II, with mark of the Royal African Company
Choice, historical British Coins Auctioned in New York
The Fabulous Eric Newman Collection, part 9: European Coins
<< <i>Zohar: <<Middle tier has lost momentum while choice coins are getting a premium.>> How are "middle tier" coins defined in this context? Are prices for these, whatever they are, holding steady? >>
Middle tier is defined (by me) as readily available coins - XF-AU and even low mint state. Of course very scarce issues carry a premium at any level. We are basing this observation solely on the US auction houses, in particular Heritage, who tends to place these more common pieces in "the back of the bus", non floor auctions. There is bidder fatigue at the end of the auction when compared with the floor auction interest level.
<< <i>Do buyers tend to accept the PCGS or ATS grades for these, and figure bids without thinking much about the physical characteristics of the respective coins. In another words, is EVP saying that the holders are and have been worth prices in the mid 3k range? Is EVP referring to average quality for PCGS or ATS graded "MS-65" Hogmouth Talers? >>
These are the 2 relevant grading services. Of course original eye appealing pieces carry a premium and I would dare to say that a cleaned piece will not make it into the MS-65 slab. At this level of collecting and price points you need to like the coin and the slab grade. No one pays just for a number.
<< <i>Do such coins with apparent, medium to deep natural toning command a premium over coins that apparently were dipped within the last half-century? >>
Always.
<< <i>Do a large percentage of U.S. citizens who collect ancient coins now prefer certified coins, or just a growing number from a small percentage to a slighter larger small percentage? >>
I don't have precise empirical data but through anecdotes from many dealers, it's clear that there are a large number of new collectors of ancients with a preference toward slabbed coins, likely due to their familiarity with the concept of slabbing when coming over from the US market. Overall, the number of ancient collectors in the US has paled in comparison to the number in Europe, but I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see more and more collectors asking for slabbed coins, especially in the $1K-10K range, where I think slabbing has the most positive potential to help reach more collectors.
<< <i>Are most European collectors of ancients uncomfortable with the idea of encapsulation? >>
Correct - they (and I) believe that coins should be held to be fully enjoyed and they don't want the barrier of permanent plastic encapsulation. There are circumstances where this isn't ideal, and slabs do indeed provide considerable added protection against wear/damage but the mentality is that if a coin has survived 2,000 years, it is unlikely that it would be destroyed by a careful collector.
I'll admit that I was nearly going to get my collection slabbed as it would make it easier to store (due to the high relief of coins) but was stopped due to cost: NGC is charging a 1% fee for coins over $50K. While that may seem like a small cost, it adds up quickly in a collection of multiple six-figure coins, especially when it is appears highly unlikely that the resultant, eventual buyers will take the slab cost into consideration as added value (in addition to the current slabs obscuring detail on the coins and the lessened enjoyment of the physical connection to history).
In some of their recent larger ancient sales, Heritage has been "certifying" coins with only photo certificates from NGC, leaving them out of the holders and only slabbing them if the buyer requests it. This is likely due to several market-making dealers saying they wouldn't bid on any of the coins if they couldn't examine them in-hand.
<< <i>Would you guess that European collectors of ancient are opposed to or baffled by the grades assigned ATS, even if such coins were not encapsulated? (I am not criticizing the grades of ancients assigned ATS, which may be fair. I am asking about the current perspectives of European collectors.) >>
Grading ancient coins is much more difficult than US coins as strike irregularities can be easily interpreted as wear, and vice-versa. I've seen coins sell in Europe as "Good Fine", then sell at a US ancient dealer as "Very Fine", then be slabbed "AU". The NGC slabs, and the grades given by auction houses, are generally an opinion determined by a small number of people. As long as their opinion is consistent, then it provides value, but there have been several cases recently of widely varied NGC grades in high-profile auctions which some have said has hurt their image.
<< <i>Do you know any European collectors who prefer to buy ancients in NGC holders? >>
I don't know of any and would be rather surprised to hear of any more than a couple anomalous collectors at this point. I also know of only one US-based collector with substantial holdings (several $100K+ coins) who has slabbed coins but his dealer is actively working on convincing him that it isn't needed. He wants the added authenticity check, which is valid, but there are other places which offer true authenticity checks (like David Sear) whereas NGC just won't slab something it feels is fake, but does not in fact guarantee the authenticity of slabbed coins.