71 rack pack

ldferg

Calling 71 rack pack guys: this was at a local mall card show today. Does this look legit? I took pics of the only 'unopened' material this seller had. He had a 69 and 70 cello that were plain clear cello (no Topps emblem or other notation). Is this the way 69 and 70 cello's were packaged?

Dpeck100

I was under the impression rack packs had a header card. I don't see one for the 1971 pack.

Is this a year where this is not the case?

ldferg

dpeck,
Some years they used a single card as the header card. This is one of those examples. The header card has the 'poke-thru' to hang on a rack. It may be difficult to see in the picture.

Dpeck100

<< <i>dpeck,
Some years they used a single card as the header card. This is one of those examples. The header card has the 'poke-thru' to hang on a rack. It may be difficult to see in the picture. >>



Thanks for the response.

I like to learn these things.

PaulMaul

This looks like the display of Floyd Soeder (fscards1 on eBay). I believe everything he has is legitimate. Are you in the North Carolina area?

grote15

The player header card racks were essentially unique for 1971. Check the seams between sections--Topps used wider seams prior to 1974 to support the 54 cards in the rack. There is some debate about 71 racks with player header cards but there are definitely authentic ones, as Moran ripped one and pulled a Rose which followed the sequence from the sheet. That said, they are obviously easier to fabricate because it's much easier to find a player card for the header rather than an actual 71 Topps header card. Topps used a circular punch hole in the header card until the 4th series in 1971 at which point they transitioned over to the more familiar cross-hatch punch hole. No one really seems to know why these 71 racks were packaged with actual cards as headers instead of header cards, but they almost certainly weren't intended for retail sale in stores because there are no price markings or Topps product codes on the packaging.

ldferg

I'm in TN, but this guy is from NC. I purchased some wax packs from him last year (75 minis, 77s, and 78s) along with some 80 rack packs. The 77s and minis came back as altered while the 78 was slabbed. I did not purchase anything from him today due to my experience last time. As I was speaking with him someone came in with a personal collection for him to review. The collection consisted of 4 tote boxes full of sets. I saw him pull a 67 set from one of the totes.

PaulMaul

I've always found him to be honest, but I guess I have no way of knowing his expertise level with unopened. It just goes to show what I've said in the past: just because a seller is trustworthy doesn't guarantee that his unopened product is.

Dpeck100

<< <i>The player header card racks were essentially unique for 1971. Check the seams between sections--Topps used wider seams prior to 1974 to support the 54 cards in the rack. There is some debate about 71 racks with player header cards but there are definitely authentic ones, as Moran ripped one and pulled a Rose which followed the sequence from the sheet. That said, they are obviously easier to fabricate because it's much easier to find a player card for the header rather than an actual 71 Topps header card. Topps used a circular punch hole in the header card until the 4th series in 1971 at which point they transitioned over to the more familiar cross-hatch punch hole. No one really seems to know why these 71 racks were packaged with actual cards as headers instead of header cards, but they almost certainly weren't intended for retail sale in stores because there are no price markings or Topps product codes on the packaging. >>




Great info.

grote15

Regarding 69 and 70 cellos in clear wrap:

1969 cellos were packaged in clear cello and contained 12 cards per pack. They were priced at 10c.

1970 cellos were also packaged in clear cello but contain 33 cards and were also housed in a green outer cardboard box. There was no gum in these packs. They were priced at 25c.

ldferg

<< <i>Regarding 69 and 70 cellos in clear wrap:

1969 cellos were packaged in clear cello and contained 12 cards per pack. They were priced at 10c.

1970 cellos were also packaged in clear cello but contain 33 cards and were also housed in a green outer cardboard box. There was no gum in these packs. They were priced at 25c. >>



Should the packs show any pricing or mfgr info? These 2 (shown in one of the scans above), are in clear cello front/back.

PaulMaul

I examined all this at the last White Plains show. I believe the '70 cello was a grocery cello, not a real 33-card cello.

jmoran19

<< <i>The player header card racks were essentially unique for 1971. Check the seams between sections--Topps used wider seams prior to 1974 to support the 54 cards in the rack. There is some debate about 71 racks with player header cards but there are definitely authentic ones, as Moran ripped one and pulled a Rose which followed the sequence from the sheet. That said, they are obviously easier to fabricate because it's much easier to find a player card for the header rather than an actual 71 Topps header card. Topps used a circular punch hole in the header card until the 4th series in 1971 at which point they transitioned over to the more familiar cross-hatch punch hole. No one really seems to know why these 71 racks were packaged with actual cards as headers instead of header cards, but they almost certainly weren't intended for retail sale in stores because there are no price markings or Topps product codes on the packaging. >>



Correction, I pulled 2 Pete Roses

One got a straight 8 and the other a 9 OC

grote15

<< <i>

<< <i>Regarding 69 and 70 cellos in clear wrap:

1969 cellos were packaged in clear cello and contained 12 cards per pack. They were priced at 10c.

1970 cellos were also packaged in clear cello but contain 33 cards and were also housed in a green outer cardboard box. There was no gum in these packs. They were priced at 25c. >>



Should the packs show any pricing or mfgr info? These 2 (shown in one of the scans above), are in clear cello front/back. >>



No pricing info on the cello itself, but all 12-card cellos from 1970 forward are not authentic and not produced by Topps.

cincyredlegs

<< <i>This looks like the display of Floyd Soeder (fscards1 on eBay). I believe everything he has is legitimate. Are you in the North Carolina area? >>




I have also dealt with Floyd. Very nice and honest gentlemen. I have bought un-opened from him in the past when I first started collecting wax/cellos. Some things were good while others were bad. I don't believe he tried to deceive me but rather just didn't know.

Mark

ldferg

<< <i>

<< <i>This looks like the display of Floyd Soeder (fscards1 on eBay). I believe everything he has is legitimate. Are you in the North Carolina area? >>




I have also dealt with Floyd. Very nice and honest gentlemen. I have bought un-opened from him in the past when I first started collecting wax/cellos. Some things were good while others were bad. I don't believe he tried to deceive me but rather just didn't know. >>



For clarification, I do not know if this is Floyd. He typically sets up at this local mall show (I think it may be quarterly). I will find out the next time the show comes thru. He did say the 75 cello's were from the Conlon collection.

ldferg

moran/grote/cpamike/etc....,
Do the cards in the cell match correctly for a 71 rack?

grote15

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>This looks like the display of Floyd Soeder (fscards1 on eBay). I believe everything he has is legitimate. Are you in the North Carolina area? >>




I have also dealt with Floyd. Very nice and honest gentlemen. I have bought un-opened from him in the past when I first started collecting wax/cellos. Some things were good while others were bad. I don't believe he tried to deceive me but rather just didn't know. >>



For clarification, I do not know if this is Floyd. He typically sets up at this local mall show (I think it may be quarterly). I will find out the next time the show comes thru. He did say the 75 cello's were from the Conlon collection. >>



Mini cellos, correct?

ldferg

<< <i>Mini cellos, correct? >>



Correct. 3 mini's. He said he purchased one of the boxes.

MikeyP

<< <i>This looks like the display of Floyd Soeder (fscards1 on eBay). >>



If this is in fact who he is, none of his 1978 Topps Baseball unopened packs are listed on eBay. I just checked to see how much he may be listing them for.

grote15

<< <i>moran/grote/cpamike/etc....,
Do the cards in the cell match correctly for a 71 rack? >>



1971 racks were packaged by series~all cards showing in this pack are from 2nd series. Unlike mid to late 70s all series racks in which certain cards were typically found in a specific cell or section based on the sheet, racks from this era house cards in any section but from one specific series in that if it's a mixed or single series rack, all cards in that particular section or cell should be from that same series.

PLEHR

<< <i>This looks like the display of Floyd Soeder (fscards1 on eBay). I believe everything he has is legitimate. Are you in the North Carolina area? >>



Does anyone know for sure if this stuff belongs to fscards1? There is a pack in that case I'm interested in.

mikelowell25

David (LD_ferg) and PLEHR: i can say with 100% certainty that yes, all of this stuff without a doubt belongs to floyd aka fscards; as soon as I saw the first pic in the thread and the 71 rack and the cards that were in it, I knew immediately it was his stuff; I looked at that 71 rack at rich altmans boston show at the end of march and almost bought it but after a conversation with tim (grote15) i decided to hold out for one with the regular (ie yellow) header card opposed to the regular 71 card. I also recognized all the other packs in his case that hes had for quite some time, namely the 59 fleer tw psa 6 pack and the 58 cello, plus his 76-77 raw basketball packs. I've been buying from him for years on ebay and at shows and he's definitely a reputable seller and a stand-up guy. Although if my memory serves me correctly, the only unopened I've ever bought from him were two 79 hockey wax trays that i bought from him last november and when I bought them I told my friend who was with me at the time (and floyd too) that you need to be careful with these as people have been known to reseal them and make them; then I got home from the show and started thinking about the trays a little more and realized that what I meant to say to him was that there is no certainty that topps even manufactured these back in 79 (steve hart has even said its not certain that topps made these); I then found the thread on here from a few years ago regarding the discussion about them and said to myself "Sh!t, maybe I shouldnt have bought them!!" but almost a year later and after conversations with a couple board members regarding them I believe they are legit and that topps did in fact produce these back in the day.

ldferg

Mike,
Looking at the 59tw pack in my pic vs one being sold currently from fscards1, it does appear these packs were in the same submission.

PaulMaul

They are 100% from fscards1. His show inventory and his eBay inventory are largely different.

robert67

.

PaulMaul

<< <i>

<< <i>moran/grote/cpamike/etc....,
Do the cards in the cell match correctly for a 71 rack? >>



1971 racks were packaged by series~all cards showing in this pack are from 2nd series. Unlike mid to late 70s all series racks in which certain cards were typically found in a specific cell or section based on the sheet, racks from this era house cards in any section but from one specific series in that if it's a mixed or single series rack, all cards in that particular section or cell should be from that same series. >>



Shouldn't the cells still have "asterisk consistency", or no?

PaulMaul

<< <i>David, did you ask how much he wanted for his 75 mini cellos? He quoted me $125 this Spring and told me the same story about them being from the Conlon collection.

I have dealt with him many times over the years at that show and he seems like a good dealer. >>



$125 is what I paid him for one.

jmoran19

I don't like the 71 rack. Although there are multiple examples of raks with 2 sections from one series and the 3rd section from the next series like this rak (Don wert and Denny Doyle section are 3rd series cards) at least one and usually 2 of the sections move logically on one side of the 264 card sheet, either 18 or 19 cards deep. Not one of the sections on the rak shown does this. Huge red flag in my feeble mind

John

gemint

What was he asking for the '57 and '58 cello packs?

grote15

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>moran/grote/cpamike/etc....,
Do the cards in the cell match correctly for a 71 rack? >>



1971 racks were packaged by series~all cards showing in this pack are from 2nd series. Unlike mid to late 70s all series racks in which certain cards were typically found in a specific cell or section based on the sheet, racks from this era house cards in any section but from one specific series in that if it's a mixed or single series rack, all cards in that particular section or cell should be from that same series. >>



Shouldn't the cells still have "asterisk consistency", or no? >>



A card in a specific series pre-1975 rack can appear in different sections. I believe the Roses that Moran pulled from the 1st series rack he opened were in two separate sections.

grote15

One other issue, too, is that this rack, as series 2/3 rack, should have a circular punch hole in player header card. Topps did not begin using cross-hatch punch hole till 4th series in 1971.

I believe John also has an example of a 71 rack with circular punch holed in player header card.

summerof68

<< <i>Shouldn't the cells still have "asterisk consistency", or no? >>


All the authentic 1971 (series 1) packs that I have come across over the years have had the *, **, * cell sequence. In the recent show me your racks thread from a few days ago member (gem mint) showed pictures of his four series one '71 racks and all had this correct sequence.

Since the '71 rack in question is a series 2/3 I am not sure what the asterisk series should be--perhaps others here can help.

jmoran19

Jeez you stalking me Tim? LOL

You are correct, I pulled the Roses (as well as 2 Davey C) from different sections of the rak. 2 of the sections ran in sequence, one was 18 cards And all came from the right side of the 264 card series 1 sheet and other one was 19 cards (pretty normal for 1971), all from the left half of the 264 card sheet. 3rd section moved between 2 halves

Both raks I was lucky enough to obtain have a player card as the head with a standard circular hole punch, not the cross hatch type hole. My theory is the headers they planned on using either didn't arrive on time for the first series raks or they planned on using the cross hatch method but it had issues. For series 2 and 3 i think they used left over 1970 headers but I need to look at my notes.

John

jmoran19

<< <i>

<< <i>Shouldn't the cells still have "asterisk consistency", or no? >>


All the authentic 1971 (series 1) packs that I have come across over the years have had the *, **, * cell sequence. In the recent show me your racks thread from a few days ago member (gem mint) showed pictures of his four series one '71 racks and all had this correct sequence.

Since the '71 rack in question is a series 2/3 I am not sure what the asterisk series should be--perhaps others here can help. >>



I've seen at least 3 1971 first series raks opened and they all had one section of cards exclusively from the left half of the 264 card sheet, one section exclusively from the right half and then the 3rd section flopped between the 2 sheets, almost like a vending box. 2-3 cards in sequence from one side then 2-3 from somewhere else...

ldferg

$125 on the 75 mini cellos.

$975 on 71 rack

$135 on 78 racks

$50 on 81fb rack

I did not inquire on the 50s and 60s unopened.

MikeyP

Thanks for posting the prices. Hopefully he will list the 1978 Topps Baseball rack pack on eBay.

PLEHR

<< <i>$125 on the 75 mini cellos.

$975 on 71 rack

$135 on 78 racks

$50 on 81fb rack

I did not inquire on the 50s and 60s unopened. >>



Do you know what price he had on the 1973 cello? Did he have any other 1973 wax, cellos or racks?

summerof68

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Shouldn't the cells still have "asterisk consistency", or no? >>


All the authentic 1971 (series 1) packs that I have come across over the years have had the *, **, * cell sequence. In the recent show me your racks thread from a few days ago member (gem mint) showed pictures of his four series one '71 racks and all had this correct sequence.

Since the '71 rack in question is a series 2/3 I am not sure what the asterisk series should be--perhaps others here can help. >>



I've seen at least 3 1971 first series raks opened and they all had one section of cards exclusively from the left half of the 264 card sheet, one section exclusively from the right half and then the 3rd section flopped between the 2 sheets, almost like a vending box. 2-3 cards in sequence from one side then 2-3 from somewhere else... >>




Thanks for the info John. I've always been very cautious regarding '71 baseball racks because of the potential value of those pesky black-bordered cards and the temptation for them to have been searched.

summerof68

<< <i>. $135 on 78 racks >>




Not a bad price for that Palmer rack.

PaulMaul

<< <i>

<< <i>$125 on the 75 mini cellos.

$975 on 71 rack

$135 on 78 racks

$50 on 81fb rack

I did not inquire on the 50s and 60s unopened. >>



Do you know what price he had on the 1973 cello? Did he have any other 1973 wax, cellos or racks? >>



I'm not sure but I think the '73 cello was around $225.

PLEHR

Thanks! At $225 I'm a buyer if the back looks good.