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When does a shipping fee of slabs become exorbitant?

Had an issue very recently with eBay mega seller Probstein123. I decided to dwell into '77 Topps baseball when I noticed a nice high quality set break Probstein was auctioning on eBay. At the end of the day, I won 196 slabs (for over $2k). They were won over different days. He created 6 invoices and charged shipping fees on each. The fees totaled $83. I asked him to combine and reduce the fee and after about 15 different eBay messages back and forth, at the end of the day, he did not reduce the fee one cent. He claimed he was bound by eBay rules as they limit invoices to 40 items. Obviously we all know this, as I have been collecting for years and have utilized Ebay for over 2000 slab purchases myself, which have included several purchases of 100 or more slabs from various sellers in the past. I pointed out that when Prewar, Novella, or the likes ship large lots, they do combine shipping fees in that they will charge for shipping on one of the 40 lot invoices and just charge zero on others. Seller Probstein skirted this example and reasoning stating they possibly didn't understand eBay rules and this was not allowed and could further jeopardize his power seller ratings. He argued and refused to combine and reduce the rate. I know those 196 slabs could easily pack and fit in two large USPS Priority flat rate boxes and be sent for a cost of under $33. I explained that to him and he still refused - standing his ground that eBay would not allow it. Of course when I called and spoke to an eBay supervisor they disagreed. Several times during our correspondence Probstein offered just to cancel everything, and initially I refused in hopes I could reason with him to reduce the fee to some reasonable amount. I even advised him that on 7/21/14 I had won 113 slabs on eBay from seller Apple383. Over three invoices Mike charged $12.50, free and free to ship them all. More than fair, right? Probstein blew that off as perhaps he didn't understand eBay rules. Lastly, I advised that after 8 years of buying and spending thousands of $$$$ with him, I would just cease if he failed to combine shipping. He could care less.......Bottom line, collectors need to be aware of the major sellers who want to profit on shipping fees, particularly on large purchases.............If any collectors have a take on this, I would love to hear them.

Comments

  • cards651cards651 Posts: 665 ✭✭
    I can easily fit three PSA boxes in a flat rate Medium USPS box. That's 54 to 72 cards (depending on old or new slabs) anywhere in the US for $11.30. That's 3 or 4 Medium flat rate boxes for 196 slabs or $33 to $44. This range would seem fair. Many sellers will lower this further because of the time savings of shipping 196 cards to one person. Whenever this happens to me, I assume the seller is hurting. They aren't getting the prices they need so they need to chisel you on shipping. Good luck. $83 is too high.
  • cards651cards651 Posts: 665 ✭✭
    btw -- PSA itself will often stuff 4 boxes into a Medium Rate box. That's 72 to 96 cards!! (again depending on old or new slab)
  • cards651cards651 Posts: 665 ✭✭
    Just after posting, I received a package from you! (I thought the name looked familiar.) Very fair shipping which makes it difficult when others are not being fair. Thanks for the '76 Topps football and good luck with '77 baseball.
  • Yep, I agree. He should just charge what he thinks is fair. Then send you a free card or voucher to make it up. Poor business ...he would save that much in time
  • elsnortoelsnorto Posts: 2,013
    Be careful, I know someone who had a similar experience as you with the exorbitant combined shipping and could get no where with customer service. They dinged the stars for shipping costs and apparently Probstein got them banned for a couple weeks because of it somehow? If I recall correctly, they called and got reinstated, but refuse to do business with them since.

    They listed a "master set" once, but the provided pictures didn't show a number of the inserts. I e-mailed them to clarify as if the "master set" included the autographed and game used inserts as well, which they confirmed was indeed the case. I won the auction and when it arrived, it did not include those insert sets. All they told me was I could return the set, at my own expense, for their mistake.

    Their listings are often inaccurate and the "item descriptions" are 5% about the item listed and 95% about consigning with Probstein. It seems like he has a bunch of cheap labor working for him that have minimal hobby knowledge, interest, or attention to detail. They are all about churn and burn.

    Then, of course, as has been discussed many times on these forums the bid history on many of their listings seem... let's just say "odd". But, in fairness, the same can be (and has been) said about other consignment sellers.

    Personally, with these and all the other stories I've read on various forums, I've gotten to the point where I just won't bid on their listings unless they are truly unique, hard to find items. image

    Snorto~
  • Went through the same crap with them earlier in the year when they had a 78 Topps set break. Refused to reduce the shipping on multiple invoices. I'm still amazed at how he stays so popular. I guess for sellers he does well. Buying from him is a joke. He charges 12-15 dollars shipping when you win 20 - 30 cards at one time, then ships them in a USPS flat rate regional box. When I look this up, the shipping is only $6.00. Unlike most sellers, he is still trying to make money on the shipping charges.
  • cards651cards651 Posts: 665 ✭✭
    As metsfan notes, most sellers do not try to profit on shipping. There's a guy out in LA, Greg Morris Cards that has flat shipping --

    $3.00 flat shipping no matter how many cards purchased. Total shipping cost will be $3.00 whether you win 1 card or all my cards.

    I know there are others as well and I realize these are raw cards as opposed to graded slabs. But as a buyer, I always appreciate the approach and I tend to put in more bids. I may not bid higher but I do bid on more cards. Overall, it's a more pleasant experience so I try to support sellers that take this approach.

  • mdkuommdkuom Posts: 969 ✭✭✭
    A large flat rate box can hold about 200 PSA cards for $17.45
  • cards651cards651 Posts: 665 ✭✭
    You may be right on sizing but I'm always a little wary of 200 PSA holders in a large flat rate box. I really think it gets to the size where someone in the chain will drop it, perhaps purposely, and then you're risking damage. I'm sort of partial to the Medium Flat Rate boxes.
  • macboubemacboube Posts: 336 ✭✭
    Regardless of what size box is optimum, the fact remains seller Probstein123 clearly continues to feel that he can afford to lose customers who are serious PSA collectors. I hope it bites him hard!
  • Never had a problem with him combining shipping...but I have not bought more than a dozen or so at a crack. Sorry to hear your experience sucked, a good dealer would realize that customer service is key to returning business. I had a similar experience with PSA when trying to negotiate bulk prices...they know they are at the top of the food chain when it comes to collectors wanting their cards in their slabs so customer service (at least at the National) was not even a consideration. Corporate arrogance it's called. Perhaps Mr. Probstein knows he is one if not the top auctions going on eBay and don't care if he loses a customer or two. We were treated so badly at the National that my wife wants me to switch to Beckett because they treated us like a valued customer vs. PSA treating us like we should be glad they were even taking our money.
  • macboubemacboube Posts: 336 ✭✭
    Agree re. PSA bulk rates dissipating. 2.5 years ago I paid $4.25 per for standard under $100 pre '56's. Last year I paid $5. This year they want like $6 to $8.......F 'em !!!!
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,479 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How in the world would offering free shipping on an invoice jeopardize his power seller status or fun afoul of ebay regulations?? Ebay WANTS sellers to offer free shipping on ALL purchases. That doesn't make any sense at all.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • Went thru the same thing on a 100+ card purchase last year from Probstein. He gave me the same BS line about eBay not allowing him to combine invoices.
    From what I can tell, 707 is the DOLLAR STORE compared to deans_cards. For what that guy charges, if I ever bought anything from him I would expect it to be delivered to me in a frickin' limo.
    ~WalterSobchak
  • lostdart58lostdart58 Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭
    We will not hear from probstein in this thread......he only comes posts here to self-promote.
    Collector of:Baseball
    1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better

    Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
    Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
    Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete


  • BoopottsBoopotts Posts: 6,784 ✭✭


    << <i>A large flat rate box can hold about 200 PSA cards for $17.45 >>




    True, but to anyone out there who hasn't tried this I would not recommend it. I've done this 4 or 5 times, and each time I've had slabs cracked in transit.
  • milbrocomilbroco Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭
    If someone purchased $2K in cards from me, I would give them free shipping.......especially if I knew it would only cost about 20 bucks to ship.
    Robert
    ebay seller name milbroco
    email bcmiller7@comcast.net
  • I'm running into this issue right now. I just won 3 1977 PSA commons - about $7 each, from the same seller. He sends me an invoice charging me $6 for shipping for 3 slabs USPS first class. Honestly, it's one of the most egregious excessive shipping costs I've seen for such a light order. Anyway, I ask him if he can knock down the shipping to something more reasonable, and his response is "We don't offer combined shipping. This policy is due to excessive Ebay fees, Paypal fees, and shipping fees".

    So this is great...he basically is admitting that he is charging excessive shipping fees to reimburse himself (plus a lot extra) for eBay selling fees. Not going to out him just yet as I am still trying to cancel the order.
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,171 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I'm running into this issue right now. I just won 3 1977 PSA commons - about $7 each, from the same seller. He sends me an invoice charging me $6 for shipping for 3 slabs USPS first class. Honestly, it's one of the most egregious excessive shipping costs I've seen for such a light order. Anyway, I ask him if he can knock down the shipping to something more reasonable, and his response is "We don't offer combined shipping. This policy is due to excessive Ebay fees, Paypal fees, and shipping fees".

    So this is great...he basically is admitting that he is charging excessive shipping fees to reimburse himself (plus a lot extra) for eBay selling fees. Not going to out him just yet as I am still trying to cancel the order. >>



    Were his shipping charges clearly stated in his auction description? If so, you are probably not going to get much sympathy. Seller is losing money on these cards if he had them graded. $6.00 shipping is not unreasonable under the circumstances.

    Please do yourself a favor and either honor your commitments or contact seller before you bid to find out if he/she combines shipping.

    It's amazing to me when people do their negotiating AFTER the auction closes. I do not believe sellers are required to combine shipping.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set


  • << <i>

    << <i>I'm running into this issue right now. I just won 3 1977 PSA commons - about $7 each, from the same seller. He sends me an invoice charging me $6 for shipping for 3 slabs USPS first class. Honestly, it's one of the most egregious excessive shipping costs I've seen for such a light order. Anyway, I ask him if he can knock down the shipping to something more reasonable, and his response is "We don't offer combined shipping. This policy is due to excessive Ebay fees, Paypal fees, and shipping fees".

    So this is great...he basically is admitting that he is charging excessive shipping fees to reimburse himself (plus a lot extra) for eBay selling fees. Not going to out him just yet as I am still trying to cancel the order. >>



    Were his shipping charges clearly stated in his auction description? If so, you are probably not going to get much sympathy. Seller is losing money on these cards if he had them graded. $6.00 shipping is not unreasonable under the circumstances.

    Please do yourself a favor and either honor your commitments or contact seller before you bid to find out if he/she combines shipping.

    It's amazing to me when people do their negotiating AFTER the auction closes. I do not believe sellers are required to combine shipping. >>



    Yes, it says he provides discounts for combined shipping, which he did - $0.75, knocking down his shipping for 3 slabs from $6.75 to $6.00. Not looking for sympathy either, just thought I'd add to the conversation.
  • MiniDuffMiniDuff Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭
    $2.16 to ship three slabs... to each his own, but I simply will not buy from a seller who tries to turn shipping into a profit center.
    1975 Mini Collector
    ebay id Duffs_Dugout
    My Ebay Auctions
  • Wish Ebay allowed you to sort by Free shipping...I'd bid on those cards all day long. For now I look at the bid w/ shipping included and only bid up as much as I am wanting to pay for the card with shipping as part of the price. Likewise on the free shipped cards I will pay more for. I do feel your pain that the guy said he combines shipping and then basically doesn't all he does is discount it. I've not sold a card on ebay (yet) but if I did I think I'd not list a card for any less then I would take for it plus my costs...trying to make up your operating losses by gouging shipping seems wrong and I'd think that would drive away bidders in the long run. I don't make a living off of card sales so I come at this as a consumer...I could imagine if this was how you made your living you'd try to squeeze every dime out of it.
  • MiniDuffMiniDuff Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭
    It is just bad business all around. You squeeze the last dollar out of someone and you have a profitable transaction. You treat them fairly and you hopefully build a profitable relationship. Big difference a LOT of folks don't get.

    1975 Mini Collector
    ebay id Duffs_Dugout
    My Ebay Auctions
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,171 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It is just bad business all around. You squeeze the last dollar out of someone and you have a profitable transaction. You treat them fairly and you hopefully build a profitable relationship. Big difference a LOT of folks don't get. >>



    This is very true.

    On the other hand I get more annoyed when high dollar cards have a big shipping charge. On any item I sell over $50.00, I ship for free in a Priority Mail box. On cards that are this cheap why whine about a couple of dollars? You get a great deal on slabbed cards and then want a great deal on shipping as well. Give the seller a break.

    edited to add; if this is such a big deal for you, simply contact seller BEFORE you bid and then you have the information. Sellers and buyers have been having these issues forever, so be part of the solution instead of a part of the problem. Becoming upset after the fact and refusing to honor your purchase because you didn't do your "homework" is much worse to me than his SLIGHTLY high shipping charge.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • Exactly, that is why I shouted out this topic re 123Prob. $2k spent and $83 shp chg for a max cost of $33. Xtra $50 profit for Rich Rick.......Nonsense.
  • KbKardsKbKards Posts: 1,782 ✭✭✭
    How were the 196 cards valued at $2000 shipped to you, or did you not honor your purchase? If you didn't honor your purchase you don't know how the cards would have been shipped to you so you don't know what the max cost would have been. For Ebay/Paypal protection it's likely that each separate large invoice required its own unique tracking number, meaning 6 separate boxes all requiring signature confirmation and insured(either paid for or covered under their purchased policy), and $83 wouldn't be out of line. While all cards could have been jammed into one big box, it would have provided only one tracking number for one invoice and covering himself for only a fraction of the value.
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,171 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Exactly, that is why I shouted out this topic re 123Prob. $2k spent and $83 shp chg for a max cost of $33. Xtra $50 profit for Rich Rick.......Nonsense. >>



    Sorry to be part of derailing the thread. $50.00 is too much in the example you cited. I had 123prob sell some cards for me and in the end I decided to list them myself.

    I feel that I do a much better job of posting photos (always at least 2) and I actually write a description about the item.

    There are advantages to consigning cards. I tried it and didn't like the results, especially if you want to get creative with your auctions.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • Agree with J Banzai on all fronts. KB you stand corrected. As so many other major powersellers do - like Prewar (brent) and Apple (mike) as they have charged me under $35 for similar purchases. 200 standard slabs lets say total value $2,000. You just ship 100 in a lg flat rate priority box for about $17. They fit in 4 standard psa boxes which is safe and fits nicely in the USPS Priority flat rate. Send it sign. req'd for $2 more........... We know eBay limits to 40 per invoice, so just charge for shipping on two of the five invoices, the other three invoices charge zero - just like Prewar and Apple do. It is not rocket science, it is simple and fair. You believe in the same fallacy that Prob does if you think eBay requires you to chg for shipping on every invoice....................I called and spoke to TWO eBay supervisors, they agreed with me - $83 ridiculous rip off attempt.
  • tbonewillytbonewilly Posts: 424 ✭✭✭
    200 Neutral/neg feedbacks on shipping might do the trick too!
    Ken - Volunteered to work in Florida Keys, now freezing in Ohio
    Work in progress - Unopened Racks/Cello/Wax with star power for Baseball, Football and Basketball
    Collecting unopened 80's boxes and graded packs
    I may be hoarding too much 80's junk wax but I like it!
  • mknezmknez Posts: 1,991 ✭✭✭


    << <i>200 Neutral/neg feedbacks on shipping might do the trick too! >>



    All that will do is cause a blocked bidder, and most likely, removal of the feedback.

    ------
    stupid print dots

  • KbKardsKbKards Posts: 1,782 ✭✭✭
    You just ship 100 in a lg flat rate priority box for about $17.

    USPS published rates for a Large Flat rate box is $17.90, Signature Confirmation $2.90, $1000 Insurance $14.25 (either paid for or covered under their own policy), $35.05 total. 2 boxes required, so $70.10 total cost to ship 196 valued at over $2000 per your instructions of seller using 2 large flat rate boxes(except for not thinking about providing insurance on the shipment for you).

    It doesn't matter how other sellers ship similar items to you. They're all free to ship any way they like. Probstein lists 3.50 shipping per item, along with a note "Probstein123 reduces shipping costs if you win multiple auctions ! please wait for the invoice ...." If I'm bidding on 196+ cards it would be a very good thing to know exactly how much $686 in listed shipping costs will be reduced to. Will it be free, $34, or $83. Buying 196 cards worth over $2000 and then pressuring the seller to ship them in a way and cost you demand is wrong. If all 196 cards arrived media mail with $12 postage on it then I can see why you would feel you didn't get excellent value from the $83 shipping charge. How exactly were the cards shipped to you?
  • I don't know, I look at the total shipping costs per item, in the OP's case, you were charged $83 for 196 slabs,
    that works out to 42 cents per item. I would call that very reasonable overall. Plus don't forget, ebay takes a 9% cut
    of all shipping charges now, so really Probstein is netting $75.53 for the actual shipping costs in your example.
    Which if packaged correctly and insured, would come out to over $60 in my estimation. I know Probstein packages items very well,
    unlike 90% of other sellers on ebay.

    Also, remember he's a consignment seller, these are not his own cards he's selling. He has employees he has to pay to
    actually do the work there, which involves scanning, listing, invoicing, packaging, etc..... these expenditures all
    cost money. He's running a business. I expect a seller to make some $$ on the shipping. That's how they're able to stay in
    business and offer up reasonable consignment rates and keep attracting various consignors to his business model on ebay.

    So he made $15-20 profit on shipping out 196 graded cards, big freaking deal. After all the costs are factored in, he might
    have made 10 cents shipping profit per card on your order.

    The next time you buy on ebay, ask the seller who's charging $5-6 on one card if they'll take only $2 to ship it instead.
    That seller will tell you to get bent.

    I just got an invoice from Probstein, two cards shipped for $3.75 . He only charged me a quarter for the second card.
    Solid seller. I'll be back for more.
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,171 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> Buying 196 cards worth over $2000 and then pressuring the seller to ship them in a way and cost you demand is wrong. >>



    Good point.

    Shipping charges have been, and continue to be, a big issue. Some sellers try to make a profit on shipping, I don't agree with that, however some buyers seem to think sellers aren't even allowed to cover the cost of supplies and postage.

    If shipping charges are clearly stated in auction and you think they are too high, contact the seller and politely inquire about them. If you are not willing to make any effort, then you should simply pay the amount billed.

    In my opinion sellers should be able to cover the cost of supplies and postage only, other expenses should come out of his profits. Paying employees should NEVER be done by inflating shipping charges, insurance is also the sellers responsibility.
    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set


  • << <i>I don't know, I look at the total shipping costs per item, in the OP's case, you were charged $83 for 196 slabs,
    that works out to 42 cents per item. I would call that very reasonable overall. Plus don't forget, ebay takes a 9% cut
    of all shipping charges now, so really Probstein is netting $75.53 for the actual shipping costs in your example.
    Which if packaged correctly and insured, would come out to over $60 in my estimation. I know Probstein packages items very well,
    unlike 90% of other sellers on ebay.

    Also, remember he's a consignment seller, these are not his own cards he's selling. He has employees he has to pay to
    actually do the work there, which involves scanning, listing, invoicing, packaging, etc..... these expenditures all
    cost money. He's running a business. I expect a seller to make some $$ on the shipping. That's how they're able to stay in
    business and offer up reasonable consignment rates and keep attracting various consignors to his business model on ebay.

    So he made $15-20 profit on shipping out 196 graded cards, big freaking deal. After all the costs are factored in, he might
    have made 10 cents shipping profit per card on your order.

    The next time you buy on ebay, ask the seller who's charging $5-6 on one card if they'll take only $2 to ship it instead.
    That seller will tell you to get bent.

    I just got an invoice from Probstein, two cards shipped for $3.75 . He only charged me a quarter for the second card.
    Solid seller. I'll be back for more. >>



    Very good points and I think that puts a fork in this conversation...someone mention Nazis


  • << <i>KbKards
    Collector

    You just ship 100 in a lg flat rate priority box for about $17.

    USPS published rates for a Large Flat rate box is $17.90, Signature Confirmation $2.90, $1000 Insurance $14.25 (either paid for or covered under their own policy), $35.05 total. 2 boxes required, so $70.10 total cost to ship 196 valued at over $2000 per your instructions of seller using 2 large flat rate boxes(except for not thinking about providing insurance on the shipment for you).

    It doesn't matter how other sellers ship similar items to you. They're all free to ship any way they like. Probstein lists 3.50 shipping per item, along with a note "Probstein123 reduces shipping costs if you win multiple auctions ! please wait for the invoice ...." If I'm bidding on 196+ cards it would be a very good thing to know exactly how much $686 in listed shipping costs will be reduced to. Will it be free, $34, or $83. Buying 196 cards worth over $2000 and then pressuring the seller to ship them in a way and cost you demand is wrong. If all 196 cards arrived media mail with $12 postage on it then I can see why you would feel you didn't get excellent value from the $83 shipping charge. How exactly were the cards shipped to you? >>



    KB - again, I will correct you. Please try to get on board with the facts and not defend the fact that seller Prob attempted to profit $50 on this transaction in shipping fees. 1) I cancelled the transaction in its entirety to show my position and integrity as a buyer, and in an attempt to understand how to treat your better, frequent repeat purchase customers - of which he could care less. 2) In the past, over several thousands of dollars worth of purchases, Prob has never once shipped me an order that was insured. Furthermore it is generally not necessary, as shipping "signature required" ostensibly achieves proof of safe delivery (and this is how so many major sellers ship things). So no insurance costs were EVER factored in to this $83 equation. Anyone can easily fit 100 slabs in MED flat rate priority box (let alone a LG) - quickly, safely and inexpensively - well packed and good to go. So with his eBay USPS shipping discount and two fees for SIGN REQD, Probs costs were less than $30 - and believe me, if you dont think he knows that, I've got several bridges avail. for your purchase. 3) It does matter how other peers and COMPETITORS ship, if you care to retain your customer base in large qty transactions. As I am living proof of this, and I spend lots of $$$ collecting slabs. There is no question in my mind and other knowledgeable collectors minds that this example of shipping was exorbitant and un-necessary.


  • << <i>

    << <i> In my opinion sellers should be able to cover the cost of supplies and postage only, other expenses should come out of his profits. Paying employees should NEVER be done by inflating shipping charges, insurance is also the sellers responsibility. >>



    So True!
  • MiniDuffMiniDuff Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭
    You can cut and paste a tracking number to as many listings you want, no need to create multiple labels, even if you have multiple invoices.

    I don't own a pitchfork, but I also don't understand the blind loyalty.
    1975 Mini Collector
    ebay id Duffs_Dugout
    My Ebay Auctions
  • estangestang Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭
    Why not clearly state on items won within XX time period and for XX number of items will receive $XX shipping/handling rates in each of his listings.

    I don't believe that a seller should be shipping/handling items at a loss, let alone free, in an auction environment - so just reset expectations on this and problem solved.

    eBay should also clear list this in their rules.
    Enjoy your collection!
    Erik
  • jradke4jradke4 Posts: 3,573 ✭✭✭
    i just factor shipping into the total cost of the auction and bid accordingly. if i win a slabbed card for $4 and pay $3 for shipping that is probably cheaper than winning the card at $1, paying shipping and sending to PSA.
    Packers Fan for Life
    Collecting:
    Brett Favre Master Set
    Favre Ticket Stubs
    Favre TD Reciever Autos
    Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
    Football HOF Rc's
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