1) Hound the OP about what HE's going to do next, and how HE thinks the HPA applies to random objects, (as if he's the only person involved)
2) And at the same time, complain that the FTC hasn't properly defined many of their terms.
At the very least, this legal action WILL better define the HPA!
Don't like, or are nervous about the litigation? Fine. Personally, I think that "win or lose", things will be clearer....by at least a small margin....after the rulings are made. >>
I "believe" that the HPA was enacted to protect "collectible coins" of value. I do NOT believe that it was enacted to persecute Silver Round sellers or sellers of "altered US coins"
As for the HPA being used in this litigation? The HPA will NOT be any clearer than it ever was "because" the outcome of this litigation will not "rewrite" that law. It will only "interpret" that law.
"IF" this interpretation encompasses ALL artistic attempts at manufacturing coins, then literally EVERYTHING which could possibly be confused or seen as a coin or "numismatic item" will be required to have the word COPY on it. This includes Chucky Cheese and gaming tokens. It includes Casino Tokens. It will include, and probably kill, Hobo Nickels and the product of ANYBODY that carves or alters an authentic US Coin.
Again, you cannot teach people, via vague laws, simple, basic, common sense.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
1) Hound the OP about what HE's going to do next, and how HE thinks the HPA applies to random objects, (as if he's the only person involved)
2) And at the same time, complain that the FTC hasn't properly defined many of their terms.
At the very least, this legal action WILL better define the HPA!
Don't like, or are nervous about the litigation? Fine. Personally, I think that "win or lose", things will be clearer....by at least a small margin....after the rulings are made. >>
I "believe" that the HPA was enacted to protect "collectible coins" of value. I do NOT believe that it was enacted to persecute Silver Round sellers or sellers of "altered US coins"
As for the HPA being used in this litigation? The HPA will NOT be any clearer than it ever was "because" the outcome of this litigation will not "rewrite" that law. It will only "interpret" that law.
"IF" this interpretation encompasses ALL artistic attempts at manufacturing coins, then literally EVERYTHING which could possibly be confused or seen as a coin or "numismatic item" will be required to have the word COPY on it. This includes Chucky Cheese and gaming tokens. It includes Casino Tokens. It will include, and probably kill, Hobo Nickels and the product of ANYBODY that carves or alters an authentic US Coin.
Again, you cannot teach people, via vague laws, simple, basic, common sense. >>
so if I bought a Ford truck that had a chevy emblem I can take legal action? Yes So all them flip in dealers cases that say AU50 or MS if they don't come back from are host we can file? YES, YES, YES This is BS........
1) Hound the OP about what HE's going to do next, and how HE thinks the HPA applies to random objects, (as if he's the only person involved)
2) And at the same time, complain that the FTC hasn't properly defined many of their terms.
At the very least, this legal action WILL better define the HPA!
Don't like, or are nervous about the litigation? Fine. Personally, I think that "win or lose", things will be clearer....by at least a small margin....after the rulings are made. >>
I "believe" that the HPA was enacted to protect "collectible coins" of value. I do NOT believe that it was enacted to persecute Silver Round sellers or sellers of "altered US coins"
As for the HPA being used in this litigation? The HPA will NOT be any clearer than it ever was "because" the outcome of this litigation will not "rewrite" that law. It will only "interpret" that law.
"IF" this interpretation encompasses ALL artistic attempts at manufacturing coins, then literally EVERYTHING which could possibly be confused or seen as a coin or "numismatic item" will be required to have the word COPY on it. This includes Chucky Cheese and gaming tokens. It includes Casino Tokens. It will include, and probably kill, Hobo Nickels and the product of ANYBODY that carves or alters an authentic US Coin.
Again, you cannot teach people, via vague laws, simple, basic, common sense. >>
I do appreciate some of your responses but some parts are just not correct and could confuse people as in :"It will include, and probably kill, Hobo Nickels and the product of ANYBODY that carves or alters an authentic US Coin." This is not about actual US currency which hobo nickels are and so does not belong here.
This statement is correct even though I don't think you thought about what you actually wrote.:""IF" this interpretation encompasses ALL artistic attempts at manufacturing coins, then literally EVERYTHING which could possibly be confused or seen as a coin or "numismatic item" will be required to have the word COPY on it. This includes Chucky Cheese and gaming tokens. It includes Casino Tokens. It will include, and probably kill, Hobo Nickels and the product of ANYBODY that carves or alters an authentic US Coin.
This statement also is not correct:"As for the HPA being used in this litigation? The HPA will NOT be any clearer than it ever was "because" the outcome of this litigation will not "rewrite" that law. It will only "interpret" that law."
This is because when a judge interprets the law and sites a section of that Law while stating on the record a change or clarification that Law is then from that point changed if it is published. This is because that section of Law stated by the judge is now usable as legal president in argument for and against any motion brought in court pertaining to that section."
I state this because if an item could purport to be a United States issued coin or a copy of said coin then yes this Law would encompass that item but only then so the other items you mention would not apply unless they were copying a US minted coin.
So you do make some good points in part of your argument.
Who's court will it go to after this ? Providing one side wins and the other appeals, or finds another judge in the court system, as it is, and as it will always be ?
I know they're legitimate questions, but it's rhetoric, gents/ ladies.
<< <i>As far as Dan's numerous examples of others doing the same or close to the same thing, just because someone else is doing it does not make it legal. It's no different than if everyone is speeding and I am the one who gets caught. I was still breaking the law even if I was only going 5 over. >>
What if a government entity (the Smithsonian) is the one doing it ? Perhaps the government interprets the laws differently ?
Still does not make it right. No different than my Senator getting caught for drinking and driving while on the job. Just because they are doing it does not make it legal. The government itself is not above the law. It is just harder to apply the law because they are part of the system that makes the laws. Ask someone like Nixon.
<< <i>I'm sure I am going to get flamed for my opinion but I still think the OP is taking a beating when all he is trying to do is get the seller to follow the law. If the seller did not need to put the word copy on the coin, why did they change the design to include it after the lawsuit? Mea Culpa! >>
The OP's case cited the FTSD. Why did the makers and sellers of the FTSD NOT put "COPY" on them after losing the lawsuits ? And how is it that they were able to continue minting and selling the FTSD without "COPY" for six more years without any interference ?
Why do people continue to drink and drive even after getting 5 tickets? I have no idea and it is their choice but it still does not make it legal
But why is the OP bothering to go after these particular inconsequential silver rounds when there are a bunch of non-silver counterfeit Morgan dollars from China being sold on eBay at any given time ? >>
My guess is because he lives right by them in Minnesota so it impacts him more directly than China. If he can get the courts to agree with him, it may set a precedent that could be used on a greater scale.
When someone states that someone is to stupid or would not make a mistake etc, they are making decisions for people they don't know and have no information on, I have never understood how that is even possible and have it be an intelligible statement.
This lawsuit is attempting to make exactly that type of decision for people and a business they don't know about and have no information on.
How about some positive replies that could help fix some of the real problems.
Using your logic the OP should be forming an organization at his expense to educate the public instead of clogging up the court system with a specious class action suit that he isn't funding himself. And you should be shoulder to shoulder with him, funding this educational organization for the benefit of the public.
It would be better than this attempted kangaroo court proceeding.
What is the injury? The proponents of this idiotic suit still haven't laid out the damages. Who got hurt here? If it's all a hypothetical about someone like lostincoins mom, what's the real problem? There is none. If she is a smart lady, she's buying silver after finding out how to do it. One of the first things she will do is find out the difference between a Silver Eagle and a silver round. She might opt to buy the silver round because she gets a better price per ounce in buying generic silver.
This is suggesting a remedy for a problem that is nonexistent. The question is "why"?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>When someone states that someone is to stupid or would not make a mistake etc, they are making decisions for people they don't know and have no information on, I have never understood how that is even possible and have it be an intelligible statement.
This lawsuit is attempting to make exactly that type of decision for people and a business they don't know about and have no information on.
How about some positive replies that could help fix some of the real problems.
Using your logic the OP should be forming an organization at his expense to educate the public instead of clogging up the court system with a specious class action suit that he isn't funding himself. And you should be shoulder to shoulder with him, funding this educational organization for the benefit of the public.
It would be better than this attempted kangaroo court proceeding.
What is the injury? The proponents of this idiotic suit still haven't laid out the damages. Who got hurt here? If it's all a hypothetical about someone like lostincoins mom, what's the real problem? There is none. If she is a smart lady, she's buying silver after finding out how to do it. One of the first things she will do is find out the difference between a Silver Eagle and a silver round. She might opt to buy the silver round because she gets a better price per ounce in buying generic silver.
This is suggesting a remedy for a problem that is nonexistent. The question is "why"? >>
Because it is against the law. See post above. The law is pretty clear.
I am not injured when someone speeds down my road but it is still the law to follow the speed limit. I don't see the difference here.
How is this different than the big coin firms going after coin doctors?
How is this different than the big coin firms going after fakes from China?
Why do we applaud the industry giants and then pile on the little guy? Aren't they trying to accomplish the same thing here?
I can't say I'm necessarily in agreement with the lawsuit but the legal foundation seems valid. If a favorable decision here sets a precedent which may possibly in the future be leveraged against counterfeiters and the venues which facilitate them, then the end justifies the means.
Proudly upholding derelict standards for five decades.
I'm trying to understand this from the view point of someone deciding to produce a .999 1 oz. silver round with the intent of selling it to the public. My first and most important decision is the design. I want it to catch the eye of prospective customers so do I create a totally unique design or do I take an existing well known design and alter it a bit? Now, assuming I'm a completely honest and ethical individual, creating a unique new design would be the simplest up front approach. Reworking an existing well known design, say the ASE, puts me in the gray zone. Why am I choosing this already well known design in the first place? Obviously to catch the customer's attention. What is enough altering? How close to the edge can I get? Why am I doing this? What is the most efficient up front solution to the potential problem? Put a disclaimer on the coin. It doesn't detract from my round's appearance. It's full disclosure. No gray area.
As mentioned by 19Lyd's earlier post on page 11 Westminster Mint has now included "Copy" on the 1 oz round. Why did they do that? Does it detract from their product? No. Is the general public better served? Yes.
<< <i>Because it is against the law. See post above. The law is pretty clear.
I am not injured when someone speeds down my road but it is still the law to follow the speed limit. I don't see the difference here.
How is this different than the big coin firms going after coin doctors?
How is this different than the big coin firms going after fakes from China?
Why do we applaud the industry giants and then pile on the little guy? Aren't they trying to accomplish the same thing here? >>
Speeding is a criminal (misdemeanor) activity. A victimless crime is still a crime, yes. I doesn't matter if there are no injuries or damages - it is still a crime.
This particular lawsuit, however, is a civil matter. A civil matter requires actual damages to have been suffered.
<< <i>I'm trying to understand this from the view point of someone deciding to produce a .999 1 oz. silver round with the intent of selling it to the public. My first and most important decision is the design. I want it to catch the eye of prospective customers so do I create a totally unique design or do I take an existing well known design and alter it a bit? Now, assuming I'm a completely honest and ethical individual, creating a unique new design would be the simplest up front approach. Reworking an existing well known design, say the ASE, puts me in the gray zone. Why am I choosing this already well known design in the first place? Obviously to catch the customer's attention. What is enough altering? How close to the edge can I get? Why am I doing this? What is the most efficient up front solution to the potential problem? Put a disclaimer on the coin. It doesn't detract from my round's appearance. It's full disclosure. No gray area.
As mentioned by 19Lyd's earlier post on page 11 Westminster Mint has now included "Copy" on the 1 oz round. Why did they do that? Does it detract from their product? No. Is the general public better served? Yes. >>
A private mint looking at this might think that they could come up with a new design, but they would have to hire a graphic artist to do it. Or they could "borrow" an existing public-domain design an modify it a bit. The latter would be a little quicker and a little cheaper.
<< <i>Because it is against the law. See post above. The law is pretty clear.
I am not injured when someone speeds down my road but it is still the law to follow the speed limit. I don't see the difference here.
How is this different than the big coin firms going after coin doctors?
How is this different than the big coin firms going after fakes from China?
Why do we applaud the industry giants and then pile on the little guy? Aren't they trying to accomplish the same thing here? >>
Speeding is a criminal (misdemeanor) activity. A victimless crime is still a crime, yes. I doesn't matter if there are no injuries or damages - it is still a crime.
This particular lawsuit, however, is a civil matter. A civil matter requires actual damages to have been suffered. >>
Not necessarily. Sometimes the government gives ordinary citizens the right to enforce statutes as though they were an Attorney General. In California (and other states) there are PAGA laws (Private Attorney General Act) that allow ordinary citizens to bring civil claims to enforce laws that the State cannot get around to enforcing. As part of the enforcement the plaintiff gets a % of the damages and fines imposed by the Judge. Its a way to give citizens a monetary incentive the enforce laws. You need a better attorney.... sorry. He/she should be telling you these things. You shouldnt be getting legal information from coin message boards.
<< <i>Because it is against the law. See post above. The law is pretty clear.
I am not injured when someone speeds down my road but it is still the law to follow the speed limit. I don't see the difference here.
How is this different than the big coin firms going after coin doctors?
How is this different than the big coin firms going after fakes from China?
Why do we applaud the industry giants and then pile on the little guy? Aren't they trying to accomplish the same thing here? >>
Speeding is a criminal (misdemeanor) activity. A victimless crime is still a crime, yes. I doesn't matter if there are no injuries or damages - it is still a crime.
This particular lawsuit, however, is a civil matter. A civil matter requires actual damages to have been suffered. >>
Not necessarily. Sometimes the government gives ordinary citizens the right to enforce statutes as though they were an Attorney General. In California (and other states) there are PAGA laws (Private Attorney General Act) that allow ordinary citizens to bring civil claims to enforce laws that the State cannot get around to enforcing. As part of the enforcement the plaintiff gets a % of the damages and fines imposed by the Judge. Its a way to give citizens a monetary incentive the enforce laws. You need a better attorney.... sorry. He/she should be telling you these things. You shouldnt be getting legal information from coin message boards. >>
The Hobby Protection Act (HPA) has one of these Private Attorney General clauses. It states that any interested party can sue for an HPA violation, and if they win the violator is responsible for all attorney fees.
<< <i>The Hobby Protection Act (HPA) has one of these Private Attorney General clauses. It states that any interested party can sue for an HPA violation, and if they win the violator is responsible for all attorney fees. >>
Well there you go. And thank you for taking the time and making the effort to do this. Anyone that wants to step up and protect the hobby has my respect.
I realize from your first post in this thread that you've been "troubled" by silver rounds that utilize design themes found on government-issue coins (designs which are not copyrighted and are public domain, by the way). >>
Daniel,
If what you say is actually true, and I would be fairly shocked if it is, you just opened the door to saying that there is no such thing as 'counterfeiting' money? Counterfeiters use the same 'design themes' as, say, on Federally issued coinage, to make their counterfeits. Rarely do the counterfeiters get every detail perfectly accurate, and therefore their work could be considered a slight variation on a 'design theme'. >>
Counterfeiters break laws beyond just potential copyright issues. They are committing fraud. >>
Sounds pretty cut-and-dry then (which it isn't). The OP should win his court case without issue since you, davideo, agree that the people/company making those silver rounds are committing fraud/counterfeiting Federally issued coins. >>
No, that is not at all what I'm saying and I don't appreciate what I think was a pretty clear statement being twisted. Counterfeiters are committing fraud. It seems like you changed "they" do mean "the people/company making those silver rounds". Based on my limited information on the details it seems pretty clear that there isn't any fraud being committed.
<< <i>Because it is against the law. See post above. The law is pretty clear.
I am not injured when someone speeds down my road but it is still the law to follow the speed limit. I don't see the difference here.
How is this different than the big coin firms going after coin doctors?
How is this different than the big coin firms going after fakes from China?
Why do we applaud the industry giants and then pile on the little guy? Aren't they trying to accomplish the same thing here? >>
Speeding is a criminal (misdemeanor) activity. A victimless crime is still a crime, yes. I doesn't matter if there are no injuries or damages - it is still a crime.
This particular lawsuit, however, is a civil matter. A civil matter requires actual damages to have been suffered. >>
Not necessarily. Sometimes the government gives ordinary citizens the right to enforce statutes as though they were an Attorney General. In California (and other states) there are PAGA laws (Private Attorney General Act) that allow ordinary citizens to bring civil claims to enforce laws that the State cannot get around to enforcing. As part of the enforcement the plaintiff gets a % of the damages and fines imposed by the Judge. Its a way to give citizens a monetary incentive the enforce laws. You need a better attorney.... sorry. He/she should be telling you these things. You shouldnt be getting legal information from coin message boards. >>
The Hobby Protection Act (HPA) has one of these Private Attorney General clauses. It states that any interested party can sue for an HPA violation, and if they win the violator is responsible for all attorney fees. >>
So would it have been necessary for you to actually order the rounds ?
PS: Did you try to reach a resolution or equitable solution with the seller of those rounds prior to filing the lawsuit ?
A member said something to me very recently and I think it holds true here on this thread and well everywhere "I just remind myself that I have to be the change I want the world to be. ". What a wonderful way of thinking and that is what is needed more.
As to this legal proceeding as stated you do not have to have damage in all civil cases when a question of law that is decided civilly is to be determined. We as citizens have a right in most questions of law to question those laws or to ask for enforcement of those laws.
To those that say I should be shoulder to shoulder with the OP, I am currently doing what I can as I do not get out and around very much because of medical problems, I have my good days and some more often than not very bad days. So I comment here and try my best to address the issue here which is a possible violation of Law which is now supported by those being accused changing the silver round that copies parts of the ASE to say copy. It was asked why they did not do this on the canadian coin and that is the answer, it is canadian and until someone from canada challenges the silver round/ coin copy it does not have to change.
Just as we have a right to complain about all the laws we do not agree with we also have a right to challenge those laws if we believe them to be unjust. DC could bring counter suit instead of asking questions here that need legal interpretation considering this could have a very direct impact on his lively hood.
I am just a lowly keyboard warrior offering my opinion and supporting positive change as best I can for now, how many can at least claim that? (more for personal thought than actual response as no direct attack was intended.)
<< <i> So would it have been necessary for you to actually order the rounds ?
PS: Did you try to reach a resolution or equitable solution with the seller of those rounds prior to filing the lawsuit ? >>
You are misunderstanding the intent of the law. This isnt a normal civil lawsuit. It is the enforcement of a federal statute by a private individual who stands in the shoes of the US Attorney's Office (assuming there is a PAGA aspect to HPA) .
Do you think that that the federal govt would need to actually buy the rounds from the defendant private mint before they could enforce their own laws ? No that would be ridiculous. This situation appears to be no different.
And no the federal US govt doesnt have a requirement to try and settle before bringing their enforcement action. Nor does the plaintiff need to here.
You (as an owner of a private mint who does coin medals/tokens that dont have copy stamped on them) can simply wake up one morning to a lawsuit like this one with no warning. This lawsuit is your warning. And if plaintiff wins, that might signal the beginning of the end of your fantasy pieces.
If I were you I would start saving up to hire a very good appellate attorney to file amicus briefs on your behalf, when and if necessary (and allowed), since I would assume that if plaintiff wins this one - it will be going up on appeal at the request of defendant.
According to what I can see the defendant has added the word copy as per the HPA regs and has stopped the sales of the timber wolf item. Could others verify this and report back? Edit to add that some items do not have the copy on them but do have the spot marked out where it should go. also this wording is interesting to me as it does not state what mint they are referring to.
The famous American Silver eagle design has been captured on these magnificent half troy ounce silver bullion rounds. These rounds measures 30mm in diameter and are minted from half a troy ounce of .999 pure silver. Each round is individually hallmark stamped for weight and purity. These rounds are easy to buy, sell, stack and store and are ideal for first time buyers and experienced investors alike. These are mint fresh rounds direct from the mint and are manufactured to the highest possible quality.
1) Hound the OP about what HE's going to do next, and how HE thinks the HPA applies to random objects, (as if he's the only person involved)
2) And at the same time, complain that the FTC hasn't properly defined many of their terms.
At the very least, this legal action WILL better define the HPA!
Don't like, or are nervous about the litigation? Fine. Personally, I think that "win or lose", things will be clearer....by at least a small margin....after the rulings are made. >>
I "believe" that the HPA was enacted to protect "collectible coins" of value. I do NOT believe that it was enacted to persecute Silver Round sellers or sellers of "altered US coins"
As for the HPA being used in this litigation? The HPA will NOT be any clearer than it ever was "because" the outcome of this litigation will not "rewrite" that law. It will only "interpret" that law.
"IF" this interpretation encompasses ALL artistic attempts at manufacturing coins, then literally EVERYTHING which could possibly be confused or seen as a coin or "numismatic item" will be required to have the word COPY on it. This includes Chucky Cheese and gaming tokens. It includes Casino Tokens. It will include, and probably kill, Hobo Nickels and the product of ANYBODY that carves or alters an authentic US Coin.
Again, you cannot teach people, via vague laws, simple, basic, common sense. >>
I do appreciate some of your responses but some parts are just not correct and could confuse people as in :"It will include, and probably kill, Hobo Nickels and the product of ANYBODY that carves or alters an authentic US Coin." This is not about actual US currency which hobo nickels are and so does not belong here.
This statement is correct even though I don't think you thought about what you actually wrote.:""IF" this interpretation encompasses ALL artistic attempts at manufacturing coins, then literally EVERYTHING which could possibly be confused or seen as a coin or "numismatic item" will be required to have the word COPY on it. This includes Chucky Cheese and gaming tokens. It includes Casino Tokens. It will include, and probably kill, Hobo Nickels and the product of ANYBODY that carves or alters an authentic US Coin.
This statement also is not correct:"As for the HPA being used in this litigation? The HPA will NOT be any clearer than it ever was "because" the outcome of this litigation will not "rewrite" that law. It will only "interpret" that law."
This is because when a judge interprets the law and sites a section of that Law while stating on the record a change or clarification that Law is then from that point changed if it is published. This is because that section of Law stated by the judge is now usable as legal president in argument for and against any motion brought in court pertaining to that section."
I state this because if an item could purport to be a United States issued coin or a copy of said coin then yes this Law would encompass that item but only then so the other items you mention would not apply unless they were copying a US minted coin.
So you do make some good points in part of your argument. >>
But it is about Hobo nickels as well as other "numismatic pieces" because someone, somewhere could conceivably believe that these are authentic US Mint products which they are not. They will need protecting.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>When someone states that someone is to stupid or would not make a mistake etc, they are making decisions for people they don't know and have no information on, I have never understood how that is even possible and have it be an intelligible statement.
This lawsuit is attempting to make exactly that type of decision for people and a business they don't know about and have no information on.
How about some positive replies that could help fix some of the real problems.
Using your logic the OP should be forming an organization at his expense to educate the public instead of clogging up the court system with a specious class action suit that he isn't funding himself. And you should be shoulder to shoulder with him, funding this educational organization for the benefit of the public.
It would be better than this attempted kangaroo court proceeding.
What is the injury? The proponents of this idiotic suit still haven't laid out the damages. Who got hurt here? If it's all a hypothetical about someone like lostincoins mom, what's the real problem? There is none. If she is a smart lady, she's buying silver after finding out how to do it. One of the first things she will do is find out the difference between a Silver Eagle and a silver round. She might opt to buy the silver round because she gets a better price per ounce in buying generic silver.
This is suggesting a remedy for a problem that is nonexistent. The question is "why"? >>
Because it is against the law. >>
THAT
remains to be seen.
In other words, just because you say so.........doesn't make it so which is why its in court in the first place.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Because it is against the law. See post above. The law is pretty clear.
I am not injured when someone speeds down my road but it is still the law to follow the speed limit. I don't see the difference here.
How is this different than the big coin firms going after coin doctors?
How is this different than the big coin firms going after fakes from China?
Why do we applaud the industry giants and then pile on the little guy? Aren't they trying to accomplish the same thing here? >>
Speeding is a criminal (misdemeanor) activity. A victimless crime is still a crime, yes. I doesn't matter if there are no injuries or damages - it is still a crime.
This particular lawsuit, however, is a civil matter. A civil matter requires actual damages to have been suffered. >>
Amen.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Because it is against the law. See post above. The law is pretty clear.
I am not injured when someone speeds down my road but it is still the law to follow the speed limit. I don't see the difference here.
How is this different than the big coin firms going after coin doctors?
How is this different than the big coin firms going after fakes from China?
Why do we applaud the industry giants and then pile on the little guy? Aren't they trying to accomplish the same thing here? >>
Speeding is a criminal (misdemeanor) activity. A victimless crime is still a crime, yes. I doesn't matter if there are no injuries or damages - it is still a crime.
This particular lawsuit, however, is a civil matter. A civil matter requires actual damages to have been suffered. >>
Not necessarily. Sometimes the government gives ordinary citizens the right to enforce statutes as though they were an Attorney General. In California (and other states) there are PAGA laws (Private Attorney General Act) that allow ordinary citizens to bring civil claims to enforce laws that the State cannot get around to enforcing. As part of the enforcement the plaintiff gets a % of the damages and fines imposed by the Judge. Its a way to give citizens a monetary incentive the enforce laws. You need a better attorney.... sorry. He/she should be telling you these things. You shouldnt be getting legal information from coin message boards. >>
HUH?
Didn't you just state that the plaintiff gets a percentage of the damages and fines imposed by the judge with no mention of criminal charges against the defendant?
That kinda still sounds like a civil matter to me.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
But it is about Hobo nickels as well as other "numismatic pieces" because someone, somewhere could conceivably believe that these are authentic US Mint products which they are not. They will need protecting. The above statement is wrong because hobo nickels are US minted nickels or did you not know that?
Even though this is a civil case it is still going to call for the interpretation of Law and if you don't understand that then you need some help as the legal issues regarding this have been stated. My recommendation is for you to talk to a litigation attorney to get the best answers as you are not understanding the answers being given here in fairly plain terms. Beyond this I am done with your repeated statements of the same issue that has been shown to be incorrect. Thank you for your time and consideration.
There seems to be a disproportionate amount of ex safety boys and hall monitors amongst coin collectors.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>The above statement is wrong because hobo nickels are US minted nickels or did you not know that? >>
Based on a strict literal interpretation of the law that some people on this forum hold, "hobo" nickel carving is illegal.
<< <i>18 U.S. Code § 331 - Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. >>
The act of "carving" a nickel involves removing metal from it ("lightening"). When I previously pointed out that the word "fraudulently" was a key qualifier, and that intent plays a major role, I was told that would not be a solid defense.
Regardless, many enthusiasts today collect and carve "hobo" nickels. There is even a club devoted to them - the OHNS (I mint their club token every year). The ANA offers a well-received Hobo nickel carving class at their Summer Seminar.
I hope these people are not going to be denied their enjoyment in this field of privately-altered US coins.
<< <i>The above statement is wrong because hobo nickels are US minted nickels or did you not know that? >>
Based on a strict literal interpretation of the law that some people on this forum hold, "hobo" nickel carving is illegal.
<< <i>18 U.S. Code § 331 - Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. >>
The act of "carving" a nickel involves removing metal from it ("lightening"). When I previously pointed out that the word "fraudulently" was a key qualifier, and that intent plays a major role, I was told that would not be a solid defense.
Regardless, many enthusiasts today collect and carve "hobo" nickels. There is even a club devoted to them - the OHNS (I mint their club token every year). The ANA offers a well-received Hobo nickel carving class at their Summer Seminar.
I hope these people are not going to be denied their enjoyment in this field of privately-altered US coins. >>
The provision you are quoting is not the HPA, it looks to be an anti-counterfeiting law. I don't see fraudulent intent listed as a requirement in the HPA, although it is clearly included in this anti-counterfeiting provision.
<< <i>The above statement is wrong because hobo nickels are US minted nickels or did you not know that? >>
Based on a strict literal interpretation of the law that some people on this forum hold, "hobo" nickel carving is illegal.
<< <i>18 U.S. Code § 331 - Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. >>
The act of "carving" a nickel involves removing metal from it ("lightening"). When I previously pointed out that the word "fraudulently" was a key qualifier, and that intent plays a major role, I was told that would not be a solid defense.
Regardless, many enthusiasts today collect and carve "hobo" nickels. There is even a club devoted to them - the OHNS (I mint their club token every year). The ANA offers a well-received Hobo nickel carving class at their Summer Seminar.
I hope these people are not going to be denied their enjoyment in this field of privately-altered US coins. >>
They just might as you keep using it as a way to make a point for yourself which is damaging. But you do what you want. Is their intent to defraud if so then yes it is not legal. Have you checked that defense with a litigation attorney Dan instead of constantly saying well a member this and a member that? If you believe it is illegal then stop doing it.
<< <i>... Even though this is a civil case it is still going to call for the interpretation of Law ... >>
And therein is the crux. Different people have different interpretations. Your interpretation may not be the same as the judge. And one judge may have a different interpretation than another judge.
<< <i>They just might as you keep using it as a way to make a point for yourself which is damaging. But you do what you want. Is their intent to defraud if so then yes it is not legal. Have you checked that defense with a litigation attorney Dan instead of constantly saying well a member this and a member that? If you believe it is illegal then stop doing it. >>
How is citing the obvious "damaging" ?
If I thought altering coins was illegal (in the manner that I do it and in the manner that hobo nickel carvers do it), I never would have started doing it in the first place.
<< <i>But it is about Hobo nickels as well as other "numismatic pieces" because someone, somewhere could conceivably believe that these are authentic US Mint products which they are not. They will need protecting. The above statement is wrong because hobo nickels are US minted nickels or did you not know that?
Even though this is a civil case it is still going to call for the interpretation of Law and if you don't understand that then you need some help as the legal issues regarding this have been stated. My recommendation is for you to talk to a litigation attorney to get the best answers as you are not understanding the answers being given here in fairly plain terms. Beyond this I am done with your repeated statements of the same issue that has been shown to be incorrect. Thank you for your time and consideration. >>
You are quite welcome oh Wise one.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
If tomthecoinguy has his way, it may soon be forbidden to use "LIBERTY" or "IN GOD WE TRUST" on any privately-minted bullion.
This case is a frivolous waste of court involvement since there's been no fraud or no harm to anyone, particularly to tomthecoinguy. The case should be dropped.
The provision in the law that allows one citizen to use the Feds to harass another citizen should be stricken from the law as it promotes legal mischief for no reason other than personal bias. There's been no injury here.
tomthecoinguy should drop his suit. At the very minimum, he should have to finance his own suit instead of having taxpayers finance it.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I got word from my lawyers that a settlement has been reached in my case against the Westminster Mint, and the settlement has been filed with the court. This is an agreement between my lawyers representing the class and the defendants, and it is still subject to court approval. Here are some of the elements as I understand them.
Going forward the defendants agree they will not sell either of the silver rounds in the suit, unless they are marked copy.
Westminster Mint will send an e-mail with a class notification to all the people that purchased them from them, and the defendants will also take out ads in the USA Today, Coin World, Numismatist, and World Coin News.
The class members will have the option of either sending in their rounds, and having the defendants replace them with rounds that are marked copy, or they have the option of returning the rounds and receiving a refund based on the closing spot price on the day it is received by the settlement agent.
The defendant will pay for all shipping charges relating to the exchange or refunds.
The defendant agrees to pay attorney fees.
This is obviously a major step in the case, but it is not over since the court must approve the settlement. As such I will still just be sticking to the facts in my posts, as the case is still ongoing.
So in essence the lawyers were the only ones who won. God bless America.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
So no precedent is established, they don't admit any guilt, the settlement only applies to two specific designs and if you return them, they only pay current spot regardless of what you paid?
lots of sound and fury signifying nothing.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Any judge worth his salt should realize that without a date and a denomination struck on the round it is just "similar" to an actual coin. At worst it's a copyright violation of the images if they are in fact copyrighted.
Should you not be discussing the settlement?
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>So no precedent is established, they don't admit any guilt, the settlement only applies to two specific designs and if you return them, they only pay current spot regardless of what you paid?
lots of sound and fury signifying nothing. >>
Or you can send the coin back to them and they will replace it with one marked copy. Brilliant.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Quite a lot of reading in this post, wow. It is very interesting to see all the opinions that have been stated. I was a bit surprised to see the amount of negativity from hobbyists and dealers towards someone trying to make the hobby better, of course that is my opinion. It would appear that the defendants fully believe they are more likely to lose than to prevail in the prosecution of this case.
The benefit to settling is the limitation of future prosecution of the same items of concern and not having a loosing case on court record which could affect the business and any other dealings they have ( has anyone looked up some of the history on this private mint and their associated business and dealings if not you should, it is interesting).
I understand that these were silver rounds, not actual coins, that this mint is not the worst of the worst but you have to start someplace, it is usually better to start on level ground than to start by climbing a mile high cliff.
<< <i>Any judge worth his salt should realize that without a date and a denomination struck on the round it is just "similar" to an actual coin. At worst it's a copyright violation of the images if they are in fact copyrighted.
Should you not be discussing the settlement? >>
Hmmmm. Your statement just made me think of this commemorative coin:
Or was it a medal?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Any judge worth his salt should realize that without a date and a denomination struck on the round it is just "similar" to an actual coin. At worst it's a copyright violation of the images if they are in fact copyrighted.
Should you not be discussing the settlement? >>
Hmmmm. Your statement just made me think of this commemorative coin:
Or was it a medal? >>
That is now my question being that you brought it up, was this usable to make purchases or is it considered a token/medal?
Comments
<< <i>I think it's totally unreasonable to:
1) Hound the OP about what HE's going to do next, and how HE thinks the HPA applies to random objects, (as if he's the only person involved)
2) And at the same time, complain that the FTC hasn't properly defined many of their terms.
At the very least, this legal action WILL better define the HPA!
Don't like, or are nervous about the litigation? Fine. Personally, I think that "win or lose", things will be clearer....by at least a small margin....after the rulings are made. >>
I "believe" that the HPA was enacted to protect "collectible coins" of value. I do NOT believe that it was enacted to persecute Silver Round sellers or sellers of "altered US coins"
As for the HPA being used in this litigation? The HPA will NOT be any clearer than it ever was "because" the outcome of this litigation will not "rewrite" that law. It will only "interpret" that law.
"IF" this interpretation encompasses ALL artistic attempts at manufacturing coins, then literally EVERYTHING which could possibly be confused or seen as a coin or "numismatic item" will be required to have the word COPY on it. This includes Chucky Cheese and gaming tokens. It includes Casino Tokens. It will include, and probably kill, Hobo Nickels and the product of ANYBODY that carves or alters an authentic US Coin.
Again, you cannot teach people, via vague laws, simple, basic, common sense.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>I think it's totally unreasonable to:
1) Hound the OP about what HE's going to do next, and how HE thinks the HPA applies to random objects, (as if he's the only person involved)
2) And at the same time, complain that the FTC hasn't properly defined many of their terms.
At the very least, this legal action WILL better define the HPA!
Don't like, or are nervous about the litigation? Fine. Personally, I think that "win or lose", things will be clearer....by at least a small margin....after the rulings are made. >>
I "believe" that the HPA was enacted to protect "collectible coins" of value. I do NOT believe that it was enacted to persecute Silver Round sellers or sellers of "altered US coins"
As for the HPA being used in this litigation? The HPA will NOT be any clearer than it ever was "because" the outcome of this litigation will not "rewrite" that law. It will only "interpret" that law.
"IF" this interpretation encompasses ALL artistic attempts at manufacturing coins, then literally EVERYTHING which could possibly be confused or seen as a coin or "numismatic item" will be required to have the word COPY on it. This includes Chucky Cheese and gaming tokens. It includes Casino Tokens. It will include, and probably kill, Hobo Nickels and the product of ANYBODY that carves or alters an authentic US Coin.
Again, you cannot teach people, via vague laws, simple, basic, common sense. >>
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think it's totally unreasonable to:
1) Hound the OP about what HE's going to do next, and how HE thinks the HPA applies to random objects, (as if he's the only person involved)
2) And at the same time, complain that the FTC hasn't properly defined many of their terms.
At the very least, this legal action WILL better define the HPA!
Don't like, or are nervous about the litigation? Fine. Personally, I think that "win or lose", things will be clearer....by at least a small margin....after the rulings are made. >>
I "believe" that the HPA was enacted to protect "collectible coins" of value. I do NOT believe that it was enacted to persecute Silver Round sellers or sellers of "altered US coins"
As for the HPA being used in this litigation? The HPA will NOT be any clearer than it ever was "because" the outcome of this litigation will not "rewrite" that law. It will only "interpret" that law.
"IF" this interpretation encompasses ALL artistic attempts at manufacturing coins, then literally EVERYTHING which could possibly be confused or seen as a coin or "numismatic item" will be required to have the word COPY on it. This includes Chucky Cheese and gaming tokens. It includes Casino Tokens. It will include, and probably kill, Hobo Nickels and the product of ANYBODY that carves or alters an authentic US Coin.
Again, you cannot teach people, via vague laws, simple, basic, common sense. >>
I do appreciate some of your responses but some parts are just not correct and could confuse people as in :"It will include, and probably kill, Hobo Nickels and the product of ANYBODY that carves or alters an authentic US Coin." This is not about actual US currency which hobo nickels are and so does not belong here.
This statement is correct even though I don't think you thought about what you actually wrote.:""IF" this interpretation encompasses ALL artistic attempts at manufacturing coins, then literally EVERYTHING which could possibly be confused or seen as a coin or "numismatic item" will be required to have the word COPY on it. This includes Chucky Cheese and gaming tokens. It includes Casino Tokens. It will include, and probably kill, Hobo Nickels and the product of ANYBODY that carves or alters an authentic US Coin.
This statement also is not correct:"As for the HPA being used in this litigation? The HPA will NOT be any clearer than it ever was "because" the outcome of this litigation will not "rewrite" that law. It will only "interpret" that law."
This is because when a judge interprets the law and sites a section of that Law while stating on the record a change or clarification that Law is then from that point changed if it is published. This is because that section of Law stated by the judge is now usable as legal president in argument for and against any motion brought in court pertaining to that section."
I state this because if an item could purport to be a United States issued coin or a copy of said coin then yes this Law would encompass that item but only then so the other items you mention would not apply unless they were copying a US minted coin.
So you do make some good points in part of your argument.
I know they're legitimate questions, but it's rhetoric, gents/ ladies.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>As far as Dan's numerous examples of others doing the same or close to the same thing, just because someone else is doing it does not make it legal. It's no different than if everyone is speeding and I am the one who gets caught. I was still breaking the law even if I was only going 5 over. >>
What if a government entity (the Smithsonian) is the one doing it ?
Perhaps the government interprets the laws differently ?
Still does not make it right. No different than my Senator getting caught for drinking and driving while on the job. Just because they are doing it does not make it legal. The government itself is not above the law. It is just harder to apply the law because they are part of the system that makes the laws. Ask someone like Nixon.
<< <i>I'm sure I am going to get flamed for my opinion but I still think the OP is taking a beating when all he is trying to do is get the seller to follow the law.
If the seller did not need to put the word copy on the coin, why did they change the design to include it after the lawsuit? Mea Culpa! >>
The OP's case cited the FTSD. Why did the makers and sellers of the FTSD NOT put "COPY" on them after losing the lawsuits ?
And how is it that they were able to continue minting and selling the FTSD without "COPY" for six more years without any interference ?
Why do people continue to drink and drive even after getting 5 tickets? I have no idea and it is their choice but it still does not make it legal
But why is the OP bothering to go after these particular inconsequential silver rounds when there are a bunch of non-silver counterfeit Morgan dollars from China being sold on eBay at any given time ? >>
My guess is because he lives right by them in Minnesota so it impacts him more directly than China. If he can get the courts to agree with him, it may set a precedent that could be used on a greater scale.
now if he went for the major issues( fake coins, fake coin makers, sellers and such) it would be talk worthy
but this is not even worth the bandwidth it takes up
offline for **serious **family issues
This lawsuit is attempting to make exactly that type of decision for people and a business they don't know about and have no information on.
How about some positive replies that could help fix some of the real problems.
Using your logic the OP should be forming an organization at his expense to educate the public instead of clogging up the court system with a specious class action suit that he isn't funding himself. And you should be shoulder to shoulder with him, funding this educational organization for the benefit of the public.
It would be better than this attempted kangaroo court proceeding.
What is the injury? The proponents of this idiotic suit still haven't laid out the damages. Who got hurt here? If it's all a hypothetical about someone like lostincoins mom, what's the real problem? There is none. If she is a smart lady, she's buying silver after finding out how to do it. One of the first things she will do is find out the difference between a Silver Eagle and a silver round. She might opt to buy the silver round because she gets a better price per ounce in buying generic silver.
This is suggesting a remedy for a problem that is nonexistent. The question is "why"?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>When someone states that someone is to stupid or would not make a mistake etc, they are making decisions for people they don't know and have no information on, I have never understood how that is even possible and have it be an intelligible statement.
This lawsuit is attempting to make exactly that type of decision for people and a business they don't know about and have no information on.
How about some positive replies that could help fix some of the real problems.
Using your logic the OP should be forming an organization at his expense to educate the public instead of clogging up the court system with a specious class action suit that he isn't funding himself. And you should be shoulder to shoulder with him, funding this educational organization for the benefit of the public.
It would be better than this attempted kangaroo court proceeding.
What is the injury? The proponents of this idiotic suit still haven't laid out the damages. Who got hurt here? If it's all a hypothetical about someone like lostincoins mom, what's the real problem? There is none. If she is a smart lady, she's buying silver after finding out how to do it. One of the first things she will do is find out the difference between a Silver Eagle and a silver round. She might opt to buy the silver round because she gets a better price per ounce in buying generic silver.
This is suggesting a remedy for a problem that is nonexistent. The question is "why"? >>
Because it is against the law. See post above. The law is pretty clear.
I am not injured when someone speeds down my road but it is still the law to follow the speed limit. I don't see the difference here.
How is this different than the big coin firms going after coin doctors?
How is this different than the big coin firms going after fakes from China?
Why do we applaud the industry giants and then pile on the little guy? Aren't they trying to accomplish the same thing here?
As mentioned by 19Lyd's earlier post on page 11 Westminster Mint has now included "Copy" on the 1 oz round. Why did they do that? Does it detract from their product? No. Is the general public better served? Yes.
<< <i>Because it is against the law. See post above. The law is pretty clear.
I am not injured when someone speeds down my road but it is still the law to follow the speed limit. I don't see the difference here.
How is this different than the big coin firms going after coin doctors?
How is this different than the big coin firms going after fakes from China?
Why do we applaud the industry giants and then pile on the little guy? Aren't they trying to accomplish the same thing here? >>
Speeding is a criminal (misdemeanor) activity. A victimless crime is still a crime, yes. I doesn't matter if there are no injuries or damages - it is still a crime.
This particular lawsuit, however, is a civil matter. A civil matter requires actual damages to have been suffered.
<< <i>I'm trying to understand this from the view point of someone deciding to produce a .999 1 oz. silver round with the intent of selling it to the public. My first and most important decision is the design. I want it to catch the eye of prospective customers so do I create a totally unique design or do I take an existing well known design and alter it a bit? Now, assuming I'm a completely honest and ethical individual, creating a unique new design would be the simplest up front approach. Reworking an existing well known design, say the ASE, puts me in the gray zone. Why am I choosing this already well known design in the first place? Obviously to catch the customer's attention. What is enough altering? How close to the edge can I get? Why am I doing this? What is the most efficient up front solution to the potential problem? Put a disclaimer on the coin. It doesn't detract from my round's appearance. It's full disclosure. No gray area.
As mentioned by 19Lyd's earlier post on page 11 Westminster Mint has now included "Copy" on the 1 oz round. Why did they do that? Does it detract from their product? No. Is the general public better served? Yes. >>
A private mint looking at this might think that they could come up with a new design, but they would have to hire a graphic artist to do it.
Or they could "borrow" an existing public-domain design an modify it a bit.
The latter would be a little quicker and a little cheaper.
<< <i>
<< <i>Because it is against the law. See post above. The law is pretty clear.
I am not injured when someone speeds down my road but it is still the law to follow the speed limit. I don't see the difference here.
How is this different than the big coin firms going after coin doctors?
How is this different than the big coin firms going after fakes from China?
Why do we applaud the industry giants and then pile on the little guy? Aren't they trying to accomplish the same thing here? >>
Speeding is a criminal (misdemeanor) activity. A victimless crime is still a crime, yes. I doesn't matter if there are no injuries or damages - it is still a crime.
This particular lawsuit, however, is a civil matter. A civil matter requires actual damages to have been suffered. >>
Not necessarily. Sometimes the government gives ordinary citizens the right to enforce statutes as though they were an Attorney General. In California (and other states) there are PAGA laws (Private Attorney General Act) that allow ordinary citizens to bring civil claims to enforce laws that the State cannot get around to enforcing. As part of the enforcement the plaintiff gets a % of the damages and fines imposed by the Judge. Its a way to give citizens a monetary incentive the enforce laws. You need a better attorney.... sorry. He/she should be telling you these things. You shouldnt be getting legal information from coin message boards.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Because it is against the law. See post above. The law is pretty clear.
I am not injured when someone speeds down my road but it is still the law to follow the speed limit. I don't see the difference here.
How is this different than the big coin firms going after coin doctors?
How is this different than the big coin firms going after fakes from China?
Why do we applaud the industry giants and then pile on the little guy? Aren't they trying to accomplish the same thing here? >>
Speeding is a criminal (misdemeanor) activity. A victimless crime is still a crime, yes. I doesn't matter if there are no injuries or damages - it is still a crime.
This particular lawsuit, however, is a civil matter. A civil matter requires actual damages to have been suffered. >>
Not necessarily. Sometimes the government gives ordinary citizens the right to enforce statutes as though they were an Attorney General. In California (and other states) there are PAGA laws (Private Attorney General Act) that allow ordinary citizens to bring civil claims to enforce laws that the State cannot get around to enforcing. As part of the enforcement the plaintiff gets a % of the damages and fines imposed by the Judge. Its a way to give citizens a monetary incentive the enforce laws. You need a better attorney.... sorry. He/she should be telling you these things. You shouldnt be getting legal information from coin message boards. >>
The Hobby Protection Act (HPA) has one of these Private Attorney General clauses. It states that any interested party can sue for an HPA violation, and if they win the violator is responsible for all attorney fees.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
<< <i>The Hobby Protection Act (HPA) has one of these Private Attorney General clauses. It states that any interested party can sue for an HPA violation, and if they win the violator is responsible for all attorney fees. >>
Well there you go. And thank you for taking the time and making the effort to do this. Anyone that wants to step up and protect the hobby has my respect.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Tomthecoinguy,
I realize from your first post in this thread that you've been "troubled" by silver rounds that utilize design themes found on government-issue coins (designs which are not copyrighted and are public domain, by the way). >>
Daniel,
If what you say is actually true, and I would be fairly shocked if it is, you just opened the door to saying that there is no such thing as 'counterfeiting' money? Counterfeiters use the same 'design themes' as, say, on Federally issued coinage, to make their counterfeits. Rarely do the counterfeiters get every detail perfectly accurate, and therefore their work could be considered a slight variation on a 'design theme'. >>
Counterfeiters break laws beyond just potential copyright issues. They are committing fraud. >>
Sounds pretty cut-and-dry then (which it isn't). The OP should win his court case without issue since you, davideo, agree that the people/company making those silver rounds are committing fraud/counterfeiting Federally issued coins. >>
No, that is not at all what I'm saying and I don't appreciate what I think was a pretty clear statement being twisted. Counterfeiters are committing fraud. It seems like you changed "they" do mean "the people/company making those silver rounds". Based on my limited information on the details it seems pretty clear that there isn't any fraud being committed.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Because it is against the law. See post above. The law is pretty clear.
I am not injured when someone speeds down my road but it is still the law to follow the speed limit. I don't see the difference here.
How is this different than the big coin firms going after coin doctors?
How is this different than the big coin firms going after fakes from China?
Why do we applaud the industry giants and then pile on the little guy? Aren't they trying to accomplish the same thing here? >>
Speeding is a criminal (misdemeanor) activity. A victimless crime is still a crime, yes. I doesn't matter if there are no injuries or damages - it is still a crime.
This particular lawsuit, however, is a civil matter. A civil matter requires actual damages to have been suffered. >>
Not necessarily. Sometimes the government gives ordinary citizens the right to enforce statutes as though they were an Attorney General. In California (and other states) there are PAGA laws (Private Attorney General Act) that allow ordinary citizens to bring civil claims to enforce laws that the State cannot get around to enforcing. As part of the enforcement the plaintiff gets a % of the damages and fines imposed by the Judge. Its a way to give citizens a monetary incentive the enforce laws. You need a better attorney.... sorry. He/she should be telling you these things. You shouldnt be getting legal information from coin message boards. >>
The Hobby Protection Act (HPA) has one of these Private Attorney General clauses. It states that any interested party can sue for an HPA violation, and if they win the violator is responsible for all attorney fees. >>
So would it have been necessary for you to actually order the rounds ?
PS:
Did you try to reach a resolution or equitable solution with the seller of those rounds prior to filing the lawsuit ?
As to this legal proceeding as stated you do not have to have damage in all civil cases when a question of law that is decided civilly is to be determined. We as citizens have a right in most questions of law to question those laws or to ask for enforcement of those laws.
To those that say I should be shoulder to shoulder with the OP, I am currently doing what I can as I do not get out and around very much because of medical problems, I have my good days and some more often than not very bad days. So I comment here and try my best to address the issue here which is a possible violation of Law which is now supported by those being accused changing the silver round that copies parts of the ASE to say copy. It was asked why they did not do this on the canadian coin and that is the answer, it is canadian and until someone from canada challenges the silver round/ coin copy it does not have to change.
Just as we have a right to complain about all the laws we do not agree with we also have a right to challenge those laws if we believe them to be unjust. DC could bring counter suit instead of asking questions here that need legal interpretation considering this could have a very direct impact on his lively hood.
I am just a lowly keyboard warrior offering my opinion and supporting positive change as best I can for now, how many can at least claim that? (more for personal thought than actual response as no direct attack was intended.)
<< <i>
So would it have been necessary for you to actually order the rounds ?
PS:
Did you try to reach a resolution or equitable solution with the seller of those rounds prior to filing the lawsuit ? >>
You are misunderstanding the intent of the law. This isnt a normal civil lawsuit. It is the enforcement of a federal statute by a private individual who stands in the shoes of the US Attorney's Office (assuming there is a PAGA aspect to HPA) .
Do you think that that the federal govt would need to actually buy the rounds from the defendant private mint before they could enforce their own laws ? No that would be ridiculous. This situation appears to be no different.
And no the federal US govt doesnt have a requirement to try and settle before bringing their enforcement action. Nor does the plaintiff need to here.
You (as an owner of a private mint who does coin medals/tokens that dont have copy stamped on them) can simply wake up one morning to a lawsuit like this one with no warning. This lawsuit is your warning. And if plaintiff wins, that might signal the beginning of the end of your fantasy pieces.
If I were you I would start saving up to hire a very good appellate attorney to file amicus briefs on your behalf, when and if necessary (and allowed), since I would assume that if plaintiff wins this one - it will be going up on appeal at the request of defendant.
The famous American Silver eagle design has been captured on these magnificent half troy ounce silver bullion rounds. These rounds measures 30mm in diameter and are minted from half a troy ounce of .999 pure silver. Each round is individually hallmark stamped for weight and purity. These rounds are easy to buy, sell, stack and store and are ideal for first time buyers and experienced investors alike.
These are mint fresh rounds direct from the mint and are manufactured to the highest possible quality.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I think it's totally unreasonable to:
1) Hound the OP about what HE's going to do next, and how HE thinks the HPA applies to random objects, (as if he's the only person involved)
2) And at the same time, complain that the FTC hasn't properly defined many of their terms.
At the very least, this legal action WILL better define the HPA!
Don't like, or are nervous about the litigation? Fine. Personally, I think that "win or lose", things will be clearer....by at least a small margin....after the rulings are made. >>
I "believe" that the HPA was enacted to protect "collectible coins" of value. I do NOT believe that it was enacted to persecute Silver Round sellers or sellers of "altered US coins"
As for the HPA being used in this litigation? The HPA will NOT be any clearer than it ever was "because" the outcome of this litigation will not "rewrite" that law. It will only "interpret" that law.
"IF" this interpretation encompasses ALL artistic attempts at manufacturing coins, then literally EVERYTHING which could possibly be confused or seen as a coin or "numismatic item" will be required to have the word COPY on it. This includes Chucky Cheese and gaming tokens. It includes Casino Tokens. It will include, and probably kill, Hobo Nickels and the product of ANYBODY that carves or alters an authentic US Coin.
Again, you cannot teach people, via vague laws, simple, basic, common sense. >>
I do appreciate some of your responses but some parts are just not correct and could confuse people as in :"It will include, and probably kill, Hobo Nickels and the product of ANYBODY that carves or alters an authentic US Coin." This is not about actual US currency which hobo nickels are and so does not belong here.
This statement is correct even though I don't think you thought about what you actually wrote.:""IF" this interpretation encompasses ALL artistic attempts at manufacturing coins, then literally EVERYTHING which could possibly be confused or seen as a coin or "numismatic item" will be required to have the word COPY on it. This includes Chucky Cheese and gaming tokens. It includes Casino Tokens. It will include, and probably kill, Hobo Nickels and the product of ANYBODY that carves or alters an authentic US Coin.
This statement also is not correct:"As for the HPA being used in this litigation? The HPA will NOT be any clearer than it ever was "because" the outcome of this litigation will not "rewrite" that law. It will only "interpret" that law."
This is because when a judge interprets the law and sites a section of that Law while stating on the record a change or clarification that Law is then from that point changed if it is published. This is because that section of Law stated by the judge is now usable as legal president in argument for and against any motion brought in court pertaining to that section."
I state this because if an item could purport to be a United States issued coin or a copy of said coin then yes this Law would encompass that item but only then so the other items you mention would not apply unless they were copying a US minted coin.
So you do make some good points in part of your argument. >>
But it is about Hobo nickels as well as other "numismatic pieces" because someone, somewhere could conceivably believe that these are authentic US Mint products which they are not. They will need protecting.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>minor gamble nothing important
now if he went for the major issues( fake coins, fake coin makers, sellers and such) it would be talk worthy
but this is not even worth the bandwidth it takes up >>
Perhaps but then it "could" become a precedent which is based upon a "faulty" precedent which was legally interpreted as a violation of the HPA.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>When someone states that someone is to stupid or would not make a mistake etc, they are making decisions for people they don't know and have no information on, I have never understood how that is even possible and have it be an intelligible statement.
This lawsuit is attempting to make exactly that type of decision for people and a business they don't know about and have no information on.
How about some positive replies that could help fix some of the real problems.
Using your logic the OP should be forming an organization at his expense to educate the public instead of clogging up the court system with a specious class action suit that he isn't funding himself. And you should be shoulder to shoulder with him, funding this educational organization for the benefit of the public.
It would be better than this attempted kangaroo court proceeding.
What is the injury? The proponents of this idiotic suit still haven't laid out the damages. Who got hurt here? If it's all a hypothetical about someone like lostincoins mom, what's the real problem? There is none. If she is a smart lady, she's buying silver after finding out how to do it. One of the first things she will do is find out the difference between a Silver Eagle and a silver round. She might opt to buy the silver round because she gets a better price per ounce in buying generic silver.
This is suggesting a remedy for a problem that is nonexistent. The question is "why"? >>
Because it is against the law. >>
THAT
remains to be seen.
In other words, just because you say so.........doesn't make it so which is why its in court in the first place.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>Because it is against the law. See post above. The law is pretty clear.
I am not injured when someone speeds down my road but it is still the law to follow the speed limit. I don't see the difference here.
How is this different than the big coin firms going after coin doctors?
How is this different than the big coin firms going after fakes from China?
Why do we applaud the industry giants and then pile on the little guy? Aren't they trying to accomplish the same thing here? >>
Speeding is a criminal (misdemeanor) activity. A victimless crime is still a crime, yes. I doesn't matter if there are no injuries or damages - it is still a crime.
This particular lawsuit, however, is a civil matter. A civil matter requires actual damages to have been suffered. >>
Amen.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Because it is against the law. See post above. The law is pretty clear.
I am not injured when someone speeds down my road but it is still the law to follow the speed limit. I don't see the difference here.
How is this different than the big coin firms going after coin doctors?
How is this different than the big coin firms going after fakes from China?
Why do we applaud the industry giants and then pile on the little guy? Aren't they trying to accomplish the same thing here? >>
Speeding is a criminal (misdemeanor) activity. A victimless crime is still a crime, yes. I doesn't matter if there are no injuries or damages - it is still a crime.
This particular lawsuit, however, is a civil matter. A civil matter requires actual damages to have been suffered. >>
Not necessarily. Sometimes the government gives ordinary citizens the right to enforce statutes as though they were an Attorney General. In California (and other states) there are PAGA laws (Private Attorney General Act) that allow ordinary citizens to bring civil claims to enforce laws that the State cannot get around to enforcing. As part of the enforcement the plaintiff gets a % of the damages and fines imposed by the Judge. Its a way to give citizens a monetary incentive the enforce laws. You need a better attorney.... sorry. He/she should be telling you these things. You shouldnt be getting legal information from coin message boards. >>
HUH?
Didn't you just state that the plaintiff gets a percentage of the damages and fines imposed by the judge with no mention of criminal charges against the defendant?
That kinda still sounds like a civil matter to me.
The name is LEE!
But it is about Hobo nickels as well as other "numismatic pieces" because someone, somewhere could conceivably believe that these are authentic US Mint products which they are not. They will need protecting.
The above statement is wrong because hobo nickels are US minted nickels or did you not know that?
Even though this is a civil case it is still going to call for the interpretation of Law and if you don't understand that then you need some help as the legal issues regarding this have been stated. My recommendation is for you to talk to a litigation attorney to get the best answers as you are not understanding the answers being given here in fairly plain terms. Beyond this I am done with your repeated statements of the same issue that has been shown to be incorrect. Thank you for your time and consideration.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
why is it people think they know things and yet have little or no clue on what they claim to know?
offline for **serious **family issues
<< <i>The above statement is wrong because hobo nickels are US minted nickels or did you not know that? >>
Based on a strict literal interpretation of the law that some people on this forum hold, "hobo" nickel carving is illegal.
<< <i>18 U.S. Code § 331 - Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. >>
The act of "carving" a nickel involves removing metal from it ("lightening").
When I previously pointed out that the word "fraudulently" was a key qualifier, and that intent plays a major role, I was told that would not be a solid defense.
Regardless, many enthusiasts today collect and carve "hobo" nickels. There is even a club devoted to them - the OHNS (I mint their club token every year).
The ANA offers a well-received Hobo nickel carving class at their Summer Seminar.
I hope these people are not going to be denied their enjoyment in this field of privately-altered US coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>The above statement is wrong because hobo nickels are US minted nickels or did you not know that? >>
Based on a strict literal interpretation of the law that some people on this forum hold, "hobo" nickel carving is illegal.
<< <i>18 U.S. Code § 331 - Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. >>
The act of "carving" a nickel involves removing metal from it ("lightening").
When I previously pointed out that the word "fraudulently" was a key qualifier, and that intent plays a major role, I was told that would not be a solid defense.
Regardless, many enthusiasts today collect and carve "hobo" nickels. There is even a club devoted to them - the OHNS (I mint their club token every year).
The ANA offers a well-received Hobo nickel carving class at their Summer Seminar.
I hope these people are not going to be denied their enjoyment in this field of privately-altered US coins. >>
The provision you are quoting is not the HPA, it looks to be an anti-counterfeiting law. I don't see fraudulent intent listed as a requirement in the HPA, although it is clearly included in this anti-counterfeiting provision.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
<< <i>
<< <i>The above statement is wrong because hobo nickels are US minted nickels or did you not know that? >>
Based on a strict literal interpretation of the law that some people on this forum hold, "hobo" nickel carving is illegal.
<< <i>18 U.S. Code § 331 - Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. >>
The act of "carving" a nickel involves removing metal from it ("lightening").
When I previously pointed out that the word "fraudulently" was a key qualifier, and that intent plays a major role, I was told that would not be a solid defense.
Regardless, many enthusiasts today collect and carve "hobo" nickels. There is even a club devoted to them - the OHNS (I mint their club token every year).
The ANA offers a well-received Hobo nickel carving class at their Summer Seminar.
I hope these people are not going to be denied their enjoyment in this field of privately-altered US coins. >>
They just might as you keep using it as a way to make a point for yourself which is damaging. But you do what you want. Is their intent to defraud if so then yes it is not legal. Have you checked that defense with a litigation attorney Dan instead of constantly saying well a member this and a member that? If you believe it is illegal then stop doing it.
<< <i>... Even though this is a civil case it is still going to call for the interpretation of Law ... >>
And therein is the crux. Different people have different interpretations. Your interpretation may not be the same as the judge. And one judge may have a different interpretation than another judge.
<< <i>They just might as you keep using it as a way to make a point for yourself which is damaging. But you do what you want. Is their intent to defraud if so then yes it is not legal. Have you checked that defense with a litigation attorney Dan instead of constantly saying well a member this and a member that? If you believe it is illegal then stop doing it. >>
How is citing the obvious "damaging" ?
If I thought altering coins was illegal (in the manner that I do it and in the manner that hobo nickel carvers do it), I never would have started doing it in the first place.
<< <i>But it is about Hobo nickels as well as other "numismatic pieces" because someone, somewhere could conceivably believe that these are authentic US Mint products which they are not. They will need protecting.
The above statement is wrong because hobo nickels are US minted nickels or did you not know that?
Even though this is a civil case it is still going to call for the interpretation of Law and if you don't understand that then you need some help as the legal issues regarding this have been stated. My recommendation is for you to talk to a litigation attorney to get the best answers as you are not understanding the answers being given here in fairly plain terms. Beyond this I am done with your repeated statements of the same issue that has been shown to be incorrect. Thank you for your time and consideration. >>
You are quite welcome oh Wise one.
The name is LEE!
I knew it would happen.
This case is a frivolous waste of court involvement since there's been no fraud or no harm to anyone, particularly to tomthecoinguy. The case should be dropped.
The provision in the law that allows one citizen to use the Feds to harass another citizen should be stricken from the law as it promotes legal mischief for no reason other than personal bias. There's been no injury here.
tomthecoinguy should drop his suit. At the very minimum, he should have to finance his own suit instead of having taxpayers finance it.
I knew it would happen.
Settlement. Hmmmmmm.
Honesty is the best policy.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Going forward the defendants agree they will not sell either of the silver rounds in the suit, unless they are marked copy.
Westminster Mint will send an e-mail with a class notification to all the people that purchased them from them, and the defendants will also take out ads in the USA Today, Coin World, Numismatist, and World Coin News.
The class members will have the option of either sending in their rounds, and having the defendants replace them with rounds that are marked copy, or they have the option of returning the rounds and receiving a refund based on the closing spot price on the day it is received by the settlement agent.
The defendant will pay for all shipping charges relating to the exchange or refunds.
The defendant agrees to pay attorney fees.
This is obviously a major step in the case, but it is not over since the court must approve the settlement. As such I will still just be sticking to the facts in my posts, as the case is still ongoing.Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
lots of sound and fury signifying nothing.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Should you not be discussing the settlement?
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>So no precedent is established, they don't admit any guilt, the settlement only applies to two specific designs and if you return them, they only pay current spot regardless of what you paid?
lots of sound and fury signifying nothing. >>
Or you can send the coin back to them and they will replace it with one marked copy. Brilliant.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
The benefit to settling is the limitation of future prosecution of the same items of concern and not having a loosing case on court record which could affect the business and any other dealings they have ( has anyone looked up some of the history on this private mint and their associated business and dealings if not you should, it is interesting).
I understand that these were silver rounds, not actual coins, that this mint is not the worst of the worst but you have to start someplace, it is usually better to start on level ground than to start by climbing a mile high cliff.
<< <i>Any judge worth his salt should realize that without a date and a denomination struck on the round it is just "similar" to an actual coin. At worst it's a copyright violation of the images if they are in fact copyrighted.
Should you not be discussing the settlement? >>
Hmmmm. Your statement just made me think of this commemorative coin:
Or was it a medal?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>Any judge worth his salt should realize that without a date and a denomination struck on the round it is just "similar" to an actual coin. At worst it's a copyright violation of the images if they are in fact copyrighted.
Should you not be discussing the settlement? >>
Hmmmm. Your statement just made me think of this commemorative coin:
Or was it a medal? >>
That is now my question being that you brought it up, was this usable to make purchases or is it considered a token/medal?