1975 Topps Mini Rack--is it legit or counterfeit???
summerof68
Posts: 748 ✭
A couple weeks back I had the pleasure of speaking with a long time vintage rack collector who has decided to liquidate his cherished rack collection due to his frustration with the amount of bad racks he's been seeing on ebay. He directed me to his private website where he shows off his extensive rack collection going back to 1974. On his website he also has a tab which takes you to his own teachings on how to spot a fake rack and what to look for.
On his website he includes a picture of the below pictured 1975 Topps mini rack pack which he says is the pride of his collection and is not for sale. He said he purchased it many years ago and has had several "multi-thousand dollar offers" for it but refuses to sell. He also adds that he has looked the rack over extensively and says the seals have not been compromised and the rack is legit in his expert opinion.
I thought I would post this thread as an educational tool for those who wish to learn more in regards to what to look for to help determine if a rack is legit or counterfeit. I have my own opinion on this rack but I thought I would let others chime in and offer their expertise for the benefit of less experienced & educated vintage pack collectors:
On his website he includes a picture of the below pictured 1975 Topps mini rack pack which he says is the pride of his collection and is not for sale. He said he purchased it many years ago and has had several "multi-thousand dollar offers" for it but refuses to sell. He also adds that he has looked the rack over extensively and says the seals have not been compromised and the rack is legit in his expert opinion.
I thought I would post this thread as an educational tool for those who wish to learn more in regards to what to look for to help determine if a rack is legit or counterfeit. I have my own opinion on this rack but I thought I would let others chime in and offer their expertise for the benefit of less experienced & educated vintage pack collectors:
"You tell 'em I'm coming...and hell's coming with me"--Wyatt Earp
0
Comments
We've discussed this many times on these boards, but the best way to spot a fake is based purely on the amount of yellowing on the pack. Most fakes I've seen are in a very un-brittle "sandwich bag" type of material. The othe way is the asterick */** confiuration on the back.
The astericks on the back are probably 95% accurate. There are times when you see cards faced forward/backward within a pack. . . and this can throw the astericks off. I have two 1975 racks in my possession that I purchased 25 years ago. . well before anyone would mess around with these, and their astericks are in the incorrect spots. But I have no worries about their legitimacy.
However, to this day, because I play the odds, if the astericks are in the wrong cells, I move on.
One final thought. If you look closely at the corners of the cards within each cell, typically a shiney crisp card is on top. . and the middle cards have dinged corners on fakes. It is cost prohibitive now days to put 42 crisp cards in a fake rack, and make only $400.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i> both regular and mini racks were packaged with same sequencing.) >>
Thanks Tim for making this important point. I can see where some people might assume that since the mini's were a different type of set then perhaps the sequencing of minis might be different than that of the regulars as well.
<< <i>Pardon the ignorant question but I am assuming by header you mean the first section below the tab? >>
The header is the large red cardboard advertising piece and the header section is the section containing the header.
<< <i>
<< <i> both regular and mini racks were packaged with same sequencing.) >>
Thanks Tim for making this important point. I can see where some people might assume that since the mini's were a different type of set then perhaps the sequencing of minis might be different than that of the regulars as well. >>
I concur and I'd also be interested to see the product code on the header card. All that glitters is not gold.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i> All that glitters is not gold. >>
Those words sound quite familiar but I can't seem to recall where I heard them.
<< <i>
<< <i>Pardon the ignorant question but I am assuming by header you mean the first section below the tab? >>
The header is the large red cardboard advertising piece and the header section is the section containing the header. >>
So McNally is in the header section?
<< <i>So McNally is in the header section? >>
Correct. "header section" simply refers to the stack of cards located adjacent to the header.
<< <i>
<< <i>So McNally is in the header section? >>
Correct. "header section" simply refers to the stack of cards located adjacent to the header. >>
Not to be confused with the middle section or far section.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>And let me say there is NO such thing as an ignorant question. This is the very reason why I wrote this post so that any and all could learn from it--that's what I'm about. >>
Well stated and most refreshing.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So McNally is in the header section? >>
Correct. "header section" simply refers to the stack of cards located adjacent to the header. >>
Not to be confused with the middle section or far section.
Good deal so now I know the proper terms for the sections!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So McNally is in the header section? >>
Correct. "header section" simply refers to the stack of cards located adjacent to the header. >>
Not to be confused with the middle section or far section.
Good deal so now I know the proper terms for the sections! >>
It took guys months to think of those technical terms. In all seriousness, questions like this are great as it benefits other guys who may have felt to embarrassed to ask. With the amount of money flying around with unopened, the more you know, the better off you'll be.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>Good deal so now I know the proper terms for the sections! >>
The "sections" are also referred to as "cells".
This is known as “bad luck.”
<< <i>He has a cello with Brett on the front, but I generally thought that Brett and Yount could only fall on the back of a cello, based on how the cellos were packaged. >>
This is a correct statement although you might get some fevered arguments from folks who own (and paid a lot of $$ for) such packs.
<< <i>I have a pretty good idea who you are talking about. This 1975 mini is definitely of concern, however, he has some other great packs that I believe are fine. You'd have to post each one though.
We've discussed this many times on these boards, but the best way to spot a fake is based purely on the amount of yellowing on the pack. Most fakes I've seen are in a very un-brittle "sandwich bag" type of material. The othe way is the asterick */** confiuration on the back.
The astericks on the back are probably 95% accurate. There are times when you see cards faced forward/backward within a pack. . . and this can throw the astericks off. I have two 1975 racks in my possession that I purchased 25 years ago. . well before anyone would mess around with these, and their astericks are in the incorrect spots. But I have no worries about their legitimacy.
However, to this day, because I play the odds, if the astericks are in the wrong cells, I move on.
One final thought. If you look closely at the corners of the cards within each cell, typically a shiney crisp card is on top. . and the middle cards have dinged corners on fakes. It is cost prohibitive now days to put 42 crisp cards in a fake rack, and make only $400. >>
There is a known aberration which appears in both 75 and 77 racks in which cards from the two ** sheets appear in both middle and far sections of the rack (instead of just the far section of the rack), with cards from the one * sheet appearing in their customary header section, as usual. But even in these cases, cards from the same corresponding sheets should always appear on top and bottom of both middle and far sections. Even in the case of anomalies (and there are a similar ones for 1979 and 1980, that I have found, too, but with letters instead of asterisks designating the sheets), there should always be consistency--there should never be cards from mixed sheets/sections in the same section, and I would certainly pass on any rack that doesn't follow that rule. Invariably, whenever you encounter this, too, it's a star pack in question, for obvious reasons. Resealing has been going on since at least the early 80s, if not earlier, from a very reliable source.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I will never be able to keep up with all you guys know...
I can't remember - does this rack have a "guarantee" of an Ozzie or just a good probability? It was in my "saved" photos and I can't remember why. It's in one of the rack boxes I have.
<< <i>
<< <i>He has a cello with Brett on the front, but I generally thought that Brett and Yount could only fall on the back of a cello, based on how the cellos were packaged. >>
This is a correct statement although you might get some fevered arguments from folks who own (and paid a lot of $$ for) such packs. >>
I would think you would get the biggest argument from Steve and PSA on this subject. There are plenty of them in PSA slabs.
<< <i>While we're on racks - I've got a question.
I will never be able to keep up with all you guys know...
I can't remember - does this rack have a "guarantee" of an Ozzie or just a good probability? It was in my "saved" photos and I can't remember why. It's in one of the rack boxes I have.
Hi Mike,
Cooper is in one of the sequences that lead to Ozzie but it is several cards deeper and not guaranteed to run true to that point or definitely lead to Smith--there are a couple other possibilities as well. So in short, there MAY be an Ozzie in that cell, and your odds are favorable, but it is defitely not guaranteed.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Thanks for the link. >>
No problem! I sent the owner of the collection an email and told him to join the discussion. It would be great to get his input.
<< <i>Resealing has been going on since at least the early 80s, if not earlier, from a very reliable source. >>
It was with the advent of GAI pack slabbing that resealing really took on momentum as it provided a vehicle by which highly skilled resealers could see profits never before imagined.
<< <i>Thanks for the link. In checking out the site, he commented on his 82 Topps Ripken cello that is missing the the word "Baseball" on the packaging. I was not aware there was this type of variation in the 82 Topps cellos. A quick perusal of ebay shows only a few 82 cellos missing "Baseball". >>
That is a known variation for 82 Topps baseball cellos.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
This is my collection of racks/cellos being discussed and I'll chime in here to provide clarity on whatever I can.
So, my entire collections has been purchased in the last 10-12 years over eBay. I have probably spent who knows but in the neighborhood of 15-20K on unopened racks and cellos. I am not liquidating my entire collection, but rather, trying to liquidate the lower value items I have, including individual cards (mostly individual cards actually) and others I don't have room to display. That being said, the amount of fraud that goes in this sub-hobby is disturbing, and much too widespread in my opinion. So, I have learned an awful lot over the past weeks and have had discussions with Steve Hart and others regarding the probable legitimacy of items in my collection. Here is everything I know:
1.) The 1975 mini rack with Brett/Yount on top, which some have suggested, is likely RESEALED according to Steve Hart. He cited the same Brett/Yount collation pattern that others on this forum have. So, I guess for all intents and purposes we can consider it a fake, although the cards themselves from what I can see are very high-grade and I can't see any overt signs of tampering or any yellowing at all. The seaems look intact and the rack has the typical cracking of racks from that era. I am not going to break it open, just keep it I guess. I have had multiple offers for it, including 3 and 4K. But don't worry, I'll never release it into the market. I paid $900 way back in 2001 for it. It was when I was a teacher - a first year teacher so that was a ton of money for me then.
2.) I also pulled the 1976 Topps rack with Carter top/Brett back from eBay when one person on this forum told me it was showing an aberrant collation pattern as well after it had been bid up over $300 in a couple of days. This seemed questionable to me as the Brett card was in the right place, but the Carter (lesser card) was apparently not, but I deferred here to someone who knows more about this than I did, and to prevent anyone from getting something not real.
4.) According to Steve Hart, the remainder of my collection looks very legit, including the 75 topps with Ryan/Yount on top and all of the other 70s and early 80s racks. I am sending them in for formal authentication.
5.) There is no reason a 75 cello cannot have Brett on top and the 82 cello wrapper is perfectly legit too. I am certain these cellos are real.
6.) The bottom line is that everyone who collects unopened racks and cellos likely has some fakes. The first time I brought up anything about Elsipep I was more or less laughed off the forum. I know that guy has sold tons of racks and cellos to people on this forum. A lot people have/are likely buying from B*******L on ebay as well, and everything produced there is likely fake too. None of the fakes I bought were from either of those sellers, so there are plenty more fake racks/cellos being traded. Some are so good, it is nearly impossible to tell what's real from what's fake. See Elsipep
I am happy to answer any questions that anyone has about the items I own or anything else. I hope this helps.
<< <i>The first time I brought up anything about Elsipep I was more or less laughed off the forum. >>
You were ahead of your time with your warning!
<< <i>5.) There is no reason a 75 cello cannot have Brett on top. >>
Curious about this statement. What facts do you have to support this as there are a few of us who have busted and recorded the order 1975 cellos produce and this contradicts our actual data?
John
Current obsession, all things Topps 1969 - 1972
<< <i>I'm curious as to what happened to all the packs board members bought off of Jose? >>
I was reimbursed for 3 PSA graded cello packs. They were purchased from 3 different sources - none directly from Jose. Since then, I've divested of most of my packs - I just cant get excited about any packs that people post any more b/c I know there's a good chance they're fake. (Although I have not had anyone question the 75 Reggie pack that I have on the BST board).
<< <i>
6.) A lot people have/are likely buying from B*******L on ebay as well, and everything produced there is likely fake too. >>
Bruingirl. No need to worry about outing someone without a factual basis. Stuff sold by Bruingirl is 100% fake.
Worse, the buyers are doing absolutely ZERO research. A simple google search on the name "Bruingirl ebay" brings up threads here and at Net54. So the buyers themselves are terrible....and lazy.
I saw stuff Bruingirl had a few years ago that looked great and was inexpensive. First thing I did was a google search and forum searches on about five different collecting websites. also did it for dugoutwax, kazoo, and others who sold unopened. Its not difficult and should be the most basic part of any collectors due dilligence.
fficial&client=firefox-a&channel=nts#channel=nts&q=bruingirl+ebay&rls=org.mozilla:en-US
<< <i>I don't know as much as many of you but with all the discussion of where cards should be in what cell, how do you explain some of the packs that are known to be legit but are weird when it comes to that. For example and this maybe a bad one. BBCE has an 84 FB rack with Dickerson on front in both cels. So if that pack exists and is the real McCoy, how come a 76 with carter on front and Brett on back couldn't? Obviously there may have been some sheet variance in 84 that allows it but while many older packs are fake, there are those one in a million packs that do exist. I believe there is a psa graded 79 cello with Ozzie on front and back as well. Another weird one but it's out there. >>
Not my area of expertise, but isn't football a MUCH smaller set and therefore the chances of the same card appearing in the front of a rack all that much higher?
and link above should be Google search for "Bruingirl ebay"
<< <i>I tolerated his constant flood of high-end vintage star cellos & racks for three years >>
Huh?
Edit: If anyone is questioning the context of my post, this question was in response to the deleted post by summerof68
<< <i>Deleted as to not cause issues on board. >>
That was quite the edit you did there! I had other comments and questions about things you wrote and then deleted. I guess I will keep them to myself.
<< <i>Hi All,
This is my collection of racks/cellos being discussed and I'll chime in here to provide clarity on whatever I can.
So, my entire collections has been purchased in the last 10-12 years over eBay. I have probably spent who knows but in the neighborhood of 15-20K on unopened racks and cellos. I am not liquidating my entire collection, but rather, trying to liquidate the lower value items I have, including individual cards (mostly individual cards actually) and others I don't have room to display. That being said, the amount of fraud that goes in this sub-hobby is disturbing, and much too widespread in my opinion. So, I have learned an awful lot over the past weeks and have had discussions with Steve Hart and others regarding the probable legitimacy of items in my collection. Here is everything I know:
1.) The 1975 mini rack with Brett/Yount on top, which some have suggested, is likely RESEALED according to Steve Hart. He cited the same Brett/Yount collation pattern that others on this forum have. So, I guess for all intents and purposes we can consider it a fake, although the cards themselves from what I can see are very high-grade and I can't see any overt signs of tampering or any yellowing at all. The seaems look intact and the rack has the typical cracking of racks from that era. I am not going to break it open, just keep it I guess. I have had multiple offers for it, including 3 and 4K. But don't worry, I'll never release it into the market. I paid $900 way back in 2001 for it. It was when I was a teacher - a first year teacher so that was a ton of money for me then.
2.) I also pulled the 1976 Topps rack with Carter top/Brett back from eBay when one person on this forum told me it was showing an aberrant collation pattern as well after it had been bid up over $300 in a couple of days. This seemed questionable to me as the Brett card was in the right place, but the Carter (lesser card) was apparently not, but I deferred here to someone who knows more about this than I did, and to prevent anyone from getting something not real.
4.) According to Steve Hart, the remainder of my collection looks very legit, including the 75 topps with Ryan/Yount on top and all of the other 70s and early 80s racks. I am sending them in for formal authentication.
5.) There is no reason a 75 cello cannot have Brett on top and the 82 cello wrapper is perfectly legit too. I am certain these cellos are real.
6.) The bottom line is that everyone who collects unopened racks and cellos likely has some fakes. The first time I brought up anything about Elsipep I was more or less laughed off the forum. I know that guy has sold tons of racks and cellos to people on this forum. A lot people have/are likely buying from B*******L on ebay as well, and everything produced there is likely fake too. None of the fakes I bought were from either of those sellers, so there are plenty more fake racks/cellos being traded. Some are so good, it is nearly impossible to tell what's real from what's fake. See Elsipep
I am happy to answer any questions that anyone has about the items I own or anything else. I hope this helps. >>
Hamilton,
I just hope you don't "lose the faith" and depart from collecting unopened. Sounds like you have not, but appreciate your contribution to this situation you have gone thru. You are correct, we all probably have some fakes. I have a fake 1975 rack pack with a Yount on top that I keep in my collection as a constant reminder. (I posted it on a thread on here a while back).
As upsetting as fakes are, I do sometimes think it creates widespread panic that everything is fake (or a majority), which is not true. I totally agree we have to all be cautious and do our due diligence and expose people on these boards. Guess I'm just sayin' there is still plenty of legit stuff out there. . especially from 1975 to present.
<< <i>
<< <i>Hi All,
This is my collection of racks/cellos being discussed and I'll chime in here to provide clarity on whatever I can.
So, my entire collections has been purchased in the last 10-12 years over eBay. I have probably spent who knows but in the neighborhood of 15-20K on unopened racks and cellos. I am not liquidating my entire collection, but rather, trying to liquidate the lower value items I have, including individual cards (mostly individual cards actually) and others I don't have room to display. That being said, the amount of fraud that goes in this sub-hobby is disturbing, and much too widespread in my opinion. So, I have learned an awful lot over the past weeks and have had discussions with Steve Hart and others regarding the probable legitimacy of items in my collection. Here is everything I know:
1.) The 1975 mini rack with Brett/Yount on top, which some have suggested, is likely RESEALED according to Steve Hart. He cited the same Brett/Yount collation pattern that others on this forum have. So, I guess for all intents and purposes we can consider it a fake, although the cards themselves from what I can see are very high-grade and I can't see any overt signs of tampering or any yellowing at all. The seaems look intact and the rack has the typical cracking of racks from that era. I am not going to break it open, just keep it I guess. I have had multiple offers for it, including 3 and 4K. But don't worry, I'll never release it into the market. I paid $900 way back in 2001 for it. It was when I was a teacher - a first year teacher so that was a ton of money for me then.
2.) I also pulled the 1976 Topps rack with Carter top/Brett back from eBay when one person on this forum told me it was showing an aberrant collation pattern as well after it had been bid up over $300 in a couple of days. This seemed questionable to me as the Brett card was in the right place, but the Carter (lesser card) was apparently not, but I deferred here to someone who knows more about this than I did, and to prevent anyone from getting something not real.
4.) According to Steve Hart, the remainder of my collection looks very legit, including the 75 topps with Ryan/Yount on top and all of the other 70s and early 80s racks. I am sending them in for formal authentication.
5.) There is no reason a 75 cello cannot have Brett on top and the 82 cello wrapper is perfectly legit too. I am certain these cellos are real.
6.) The bottom line is that everyone who collects unopened racks and cellos likely has some fakes. The first time I brought up anything about Elsipep I was more or less laughed off the forum. I know that guy has sold tons of racks and cellos to people on this forum. A lot people have/are likely buying from B*******L on ebay as well, and everything produced there is likely fake too. None of the fakes I bought were from either of those sellers, so there are plenty more fake racks/cellos being traded. Some are so good, it is nearly impossible to tell what's real from what's fake. See Elsipep
I am happy to answer any questions that anyone has about the items I own or anything else. I hope this helps. >>
Hamilton,
I just hope you don't "lose the faith" and depart from collecting unopened. Sounds like you have not, but appreciate your contribution to this situation you have gone thru. You are correct, we all probably have some fakes. I have a fake 1975 rack pack with a Yount on top that I keep in my collection as a constant reminder. (I posted it on a thread on here a while back).
As upsetting as fakes are, I do sometimes think it creates widespread panic that everything is fake (or a majority), which is not true. I totally agree we have to all be cautious and do our due diligence and expose people on these boards. Guess I'm just sayin' there is still plenty of legit stuff out there. . especially from 1975 to present. >>
Very well said and I totally agree with your statement. When the whole Jose pack resealing issue came to light, it turned a lot of people off to it. I, however, decided to continue to educate myself and learn from it. Any part of this hobby has dirtbags, but we should not let it discourage us or have us leave the hobby altogether. I'm a collector and in it for the long haul.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>
As upsetting as fakes are, I do sometimes think it creates widespread panic that everything is fake (or a majority), which is not true. I totally agree we have to all be cautious and do our due diligence and expose people on these boards. Guess I'm just sayin' there is still plenty of legit stuff out there. . especially from 1975 to present. >>
Actually the most knowledgable unopened collectors here, and I believe Steve Hart as well, have said that the majority of 1970's era unopened on eBay is fake. Due to prices, I'd also think 1980 falls into that category as well.
In 2010 REA - these 3 rack cases went for $4700.
That wouldn't even get ya 2 79T rack boxes today.
edit: I apologize for putting it in this thread - but there's no other thread discussing this stuff.
<< <i>
<< <i>
As upsetting as fakes are, I do sometimes think it creates widespread panic that everything is fake (or a majority), which is not true. I totally agree we have to all be cautious and do our due diligence and expose people on these boards. Guess I'm just sayin' there is still plenty of legit stuff out there. . especially from 1975 to present. >>
Actually the most knowledgable unopened collectors here, and I believe Steve Hart as well, have said that the majority of 1970's era unopened on eBay is fake. Due to prices, I'd also think 1980 falls into that category as well. >>
Just because Steve Hart says so, doesn't make it gospel.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
<< <i>
<< <i>
As upsetting as fakes are, I do sometimes think it creates widespread panic that everything is fake (or a majority), which is not true. I totally agree we have to all be cautious and do our due diligence and expose people on these boards. Guess I'm just sayin' there is still plenty of legit stuff out there. . especially from 1975 to present. >>
Actually the most knowledgable unopened collectors here, and I believe Steve Hart as well, have said that the majority of 1970's era unopened on eBay is fake. Due to prices, I'd also think 1980 falls into that category as well. >>
It's a broad statement. I didn't say anything about ebay. I purchase most of my unopened off-line. And what I do purchase on ebay is sealed by BBCE. . . and ususally from someone I have done business with. So, maybe we are saying the same thing. . Do I just throw down money for some 1977 rack I see on ebay, usually not. But I highly doubt the 1981 topps unopened wax I just bought sealed by BBCE was fake.
<< <i>Very well said and I totally agree with your statement. When the whole Jose pack resealing issue came to light, it turned a lot of people off to it. I, however, decided to continue to educate myself and learn from it. Any part of this hobby has dirtbags, but we should not let it discourage us or have us leave the hobby altogether. I'm a collector and in it for the long haul. >>
Very well said as well. My feelings precisely!!