how many 75 topps mini wax cases remain? other 70s wax cases?
lseecon
Posts: 318 ✭✭
I know this topic has been discussed before (probably profusely in prior threads) but it seems that now with "group purchases" and take downs of wax cases and boxes, the number of truly sealed 70s was cases is going to go the way of dinosaurs even more rapidly. A 75 topps mini wax case at 50k might have sat on the BBCE website for quite some time because there are very few individuals who can afford a 50k case that simply want to buy the case and keep it unopened. However, there are plenty of individuals who can afford a $3,000 box of cards and don't think twice about buying them from a sealed case. I wonder how many cases remain out there of 75 product and other years in the 70s. Are there some big stashes of 75 mini cases somewhere still or have they slowly been brought to market and broken down and sold?
Are there still more than 30 75 topps mini wax cases out there? what about regular 75 topps wax cases? I never see these? More than 30 of those out there? Perhaps there are still hundreds. Dealers, like BBCE, would probably have the best idea based on what calls they get and what walks through their doors.
On the flip side, while the sealed cases may be disappearing as folks buy boxes from them, I would guess most of the individual boxes will not be opened at these prices. So perhaps while sealed cases are becoming non-existent from the 70s, unopened boxes are not disappearing at anywhere near the same rate, they are just becoming dispersed amongst collectors/investors/flippers, etc.
Are there still more than 30 75 topps mini wax cases out there? what about regular 75 topps wax cases? I never see these? More than 30 of those out there? Perhaps there are still hundreds. Dealers, like BBCE, would probably have the best idea based on what calls they get and what walks through their doors.
On the flip side, while the sealed cases may be disappearing as folks buy boxes from them, I would guess most of the individual boxes will not be opened at these prices. So perhaps while sealed cases are becoming non-existent from the 70s, unopened boxes are not disappearing at anywhere near the same rate, they are just becoming dispersed amongst collectors/investors/flippers, etc.
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Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I personally do not know of a collector that has a 1975 Topps case (Baseball) of any form and other than Fritsch there is not a dealer that has one that I am aware of either. If a dealer had a case he would have sold it a long time ago-unless he thought the case was undervalued. Very few dealers are collectors and most sell at the drop of the hat especially when they have a big buyer on the hook.
If I were to guess how many cases exists in the market. Here it is
1971-older > 1
1972 >5
1973 >6
1974 >3
1975 >5
1975 Mini >20
1976 >3
1977 >12
1978 >50
1979 >50
I know the 1978 and 1979 Topps seems high but I have to think one person per state has one in their possession.
1968 cello
1969 cello
1970 cello (they have a lot of these)
1973 cello (though they haven't sold any of these in several years now, at least)
1975 cello (by far, their most plentiful year)
1973 wax
1979 rack
I have never seen any 75 mini wax or cello packs for sale by Fritsch, or regular 75 wax, for that matter, just 75 cellos.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Is that like a 200K+ item?
<< <i>WOW I can't even imagine what the 1971 Topps case would go for.
Is that like a 200K+ item? >>
Even more than that, depending on series.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>WOW I can't even imagine what the 1971 Topps case would go for.
Is that like a 200K+ item? >>
Even more than that, depending on series. >>
I honestly thought it might be like 500k but didn't know if that was to wild of a guess.
<< <i>DPeck I heard a box of 1971 Topps (3rd series) sold for $40K quite recently. CPAMike or Burgandy can verify that story. I do know that Fritch has some vending for a couple of series left. >>
The quality of the '71 vending is not good based on a sample size of one. However, if you're thinking of dropping $15k per, that feedback is important to consider.
Anyone see the '60 vending box being auctioned, it looks like the cards have been removed over time as the factory vending pattern is not apparent in the scan.
In 2004 I was considering narrowing my collector interest to just that of '75 regular sized baseball cellos and I contacted Mark Murphy (remember him?) and asked him his opinion as to their investment potential. At that time gai 9's were selling for $85 on ebay. Murphy told me that even though the '75 set was very popular with collectors he felt that that any unopened 1973 and earlier would be a better investment because "off the top of my head I know of at least half a dozen individuals out there who have huge hoards of unopened '75 bb cellos and even twenty years from now they will be readily available on ebay". Murphy also told me the story where back in '75 Larry Fritsch purchased all of Topps' unsold '75 baseball & football cellos.
So naturally I was very curious as to how many '75 bb cello cases Fritsch might have in that warehouse. So I devised a plan to call him and tell him that for tax purposes I needed to purchased 20 cases of '75 Topps bb cases as a investment tax write off. Of course I can't afford such a fantasy but I was curious as to how he would respond. When I spoke with him and explained my situation he told me that he didn't want to release that many cellos into the market at once as it would deflate their current value along with the future value of those still in his inventory. I responded by telling him that if he would let go of ten cases I would promise to hold on to them for a minimum of ten years so they wouldn't depress current and future values.
Larry agreed on ten cases but we couldn't agree on a price (part of my game plan since I knew he would ask a high price and he did). He wanted what broke down to $2300 a box when Hart was selling them at $2000. So after that phone conversation I knew Fritsch had a minimum of 20 cases of '75 bb cellos and probably many more since he was so concerned about their future market value.
So how many cases is his son sitting on today? Who knows but Larry Fritsch did state that the '75 set was his favorite of the decade and with that being the case one might surmise he eagerly purchased every case of unsold '75 baseball cellos from Topps that year.
This is a true story and I told it to two of our prominent forum members years back.
Conlon had the known horde and that horde consisted of 14 opened wax cases, 12 sealed wax cases and 2 opened cello cases. I'm sure there were wax cases in hands other than Conlon when he died, but quite a few cases have been cracked in that time. I seriously doubt there are 20+ sealed cases left in the wild. JMHO.
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<< <i>I've never heard of Fritsch sitting on a horde of unopened mini wax, is that a typo or have I been under a rock the last 10 years?
Conlon had the known horde and that horde consisted of 14 opened wax cases, 12 sealed wax cases and 2 opened cello cases. I'm sure there were wax cases in hands other than Conlon when he died, but quite a few cases have been cracked in that time. I seriously doubt there are 20+ sealed cases left in the wild. JMHO. >>
Sorry, I was referring to regular sized '75 cellos. I edited my post to reflect that.
---just food for thought!
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<< <i>DPeck I heard a box of 1971 Topps (3rd series) sold for $40K quite recently. CPAMike or Burgandy can verify that story. I do know that Fritch has some vending for a couple of series left. >>
Any idea which series is the 1 case that you know of? Not that I know much about any but I believe I have read that the latter series of these older Topps cards are the most expensive.
Obviously it would affect the value some but if there is really only one known case this is a platinum item no matter what series. I would think this would have to be considered a holy grail item in the unopened world.
1975 Topps baseball wax packs and wax only are ridiculously rqre. They haven't seen a wax box hit theater in a long time.
Plenty of cellos and racks but the wax packs production was cut significantly.
Meanwhile mini seems to be always available ever since the hoard was released. That will dry up soon and we will be back to seeing how rare they are. If I collected unopened, I'd be all over those mini boxes and sit on them. They are pretty reasonable when comparing to other prices and star power.
Then there's 1976. Ridiculously difficult to find anything. I think there's a consensus that the 1976 production was significantly lower than 1974 or 1975.
It all comes back to Topps releasing production numbers and why it's such a secret?? I'd like to know
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>I had a couple conversations with Steve at the national as well as some fellow collectors...
1975 Topps baseball wax packs and wax only are ridiculously rare. They haven't seen a wax box hit theater in a long time.
Plenty of cellos and racks but the wax packs production was cut significantly.
Then there's 1976. Ridiculously difficult to find anything. I think there's a consensus that the 1976 production was significantly lower than 1974 or 1975.
>>
This all seems a bit exaggerated. Steve broke a 1975 wax box a couple of years ago, at the same time he broke '73 and '76 boxes. Yes, cellos and racks are much more common.
The rarity of '76 unopened also seems like only a recent concept. I've never found it particularly hard to find legitimate '76 wax, racks or cellos. Or are we only talking about full boxes?
PaulMaul- While I totally agree with what ClockworkAngel said in his post about how difficult it is to find unopened boxes of 1975 and 1976, I was really responding to the OP question on how many cases exists. To my knowledge Steve has not had a 1976 Topps case in a very long time if at all. If you review the past 15 years of auction catalogs you will find very little unopened cases that have been offered up to the public. I have seen 1975 Topps mini's, 1979 Topps wax and newer and then vending cases but not very many other cases have been auctioned off.
Miniduff- A case of 1975 Topps minis would be an awesome gift to pass down to your son.
<< <i>DPeck- the $40k sale was a box and not a case. I doubt very seriously there is a sealed case of 1971 Topps around but I am not aware of any that exists.
PaulMaul- While I totally agree with what ClockworkAngel said in his post about how difficult it is to find unopened boxes of 1975 and 1976, I was really responding to the OP question on how many cases exists. To my knowledge Steve has not had a 1976 Topps case in a very long time if at all. If you review the past 15 years of auction catalogs you will find very little unopened cases that have been offered up to the public. I have seen 1975 Topps mini's, 1979 Topps wax and newer and then vending cases but not very many other cases have been auctioned off.
Miniduff- A case of 1975 Topps minis would be an awesome gift to pass down to your son. >>
I picked up on that. I thought in your post it indicated 1 case was out there from 1971 Topps and I was just curious if you knew the series.
Using 40k times 16 boxes gets you to a hefty price tag of $640,000. Owning that case would be pretty cool!
I was a pretty active collector as a kid '72-'76, by this I mean going to shows and the annual convention in Anaheim (before it was called the National) and dealing thru the mail on auctions and sales. At that time it was pretty commonly accepted that Frisch had a deal with Topps that had been in place for a long time that he bought all the overstock each year for basically the cost of shipping. I know he had endless boxes of '59 vending (I'd buy them occasionally thru another dealer for $5/box of 500 cards) and most other years. Up until about '73 there weren't many dealers buying cases of cards, so he must've had a lot. After about '74 a dealer named Renata Galasso started selling sets cheaper than Frisch and Martucci and I suspect she had a lot of pull with Topps- but she was buying vending and collating sets.
I don't know how long Frisch's deal with Topps went on, or if it still exists, but I doubt he had much competition on unopened overstock.
In regards to mini's, when they came out it caused quite a stir in the hobby, as they were only issued in NorCal and Michigan. I don't recall Frisch selling them but do remember Charlie Conlon always had "just a few left" as well as a Fresno area dealer named CS Perry.
When I got back in the hobby in 2000 I spoke with Charlie and expressed surprise that he still was selling boxes, and he told me he'd bought up all of Topps stock but there "was only a few boxes left". Not sure if Frisch even got a shot at them since Charlie made sure there was no overstock. His death brought out the reality of what was left and the rest of what he had was sold thru REA. I ended up with a box for just under $900 and figured it would be a while before they got back to the $1350 that Charlie wanted- I guess a while translates to about 15 minutes in todays market!
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>Tim- I see an even smaller % increase on '60's and even '50's packs, with notable exceptions. I think it's a case of either A. people looking for boxes instead of individual packs B. a desire for quantity or C. some things are so rare no one collects them anymore. >>
LOL, it might be D) all of the above
Doesn't really make sense to me, though~scarcity should drive value, but I suppose it's the allure of acquiring full boxes, like you said, and the price point.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>What is interesting to me, at least, is how sharply more commonly found unopened product from the late 1970s (1978-1980) has risen in value when compared to product from early to mid 1970. 78 and 79 cellos have quadrupled in value over past 2-3 years while packs from earlier in the decade haven't even doubled in value in many cases, even though they are less commonly found. Three years ago, you could buy a 79 wax pack for $12; today Steve sells them for $55. Three years ago, a 72 wax pack would command about $150; today they retail for maybe $225. I just got a real nice PSA 9 5th/6th series pack for $275. >>
My take is that a greater percentage of newcomers to the unopened hobby have been quickly priced out of '77 and earlier product therefore this has created a higher demand for '78 to '80 product and prices have risen accordingly.
Same thing happened in the southern California real estate market during the housing boom from 2002 to 2007. The higher-end homes rose more in total dollars but the lower-end homes made better percentage gains due to higher demand and hence where the better investment.
<< <i>
<< <i>What is interesting to me, at least, is how sharply more commonly found unopened product from the late 1970s (1978-1980) has risen in value when compared to product from early to mid 1970. 78 and 79 cellos have quadrupled in value over past 2-3 years while packs from earlier in the decade haven't even doubled in value in many cases, even though they are less commonly found. Three years ago, you could buy a 79 wax pack for $12; today Steve sells them for $55. Three years ago, a 72 wax pack would command about $150; today they retail for maybe $225. I just got a real nice PSA 9 5th/6th series pack for $275. >>
My take is that a greater percentage of newcomers to the unopened hobby have been quickly priced out of '77 and earlier product therefore this has created a higher demand for '78 to '80 product and prices have risen accordingly.
Same thing happened in the southern California real estate market during the housing boom from 2002 to 2007. The higher-end homes rose more in total dollars but the lower-end homes made better percentage gains due to higher demand and hence where the better investment. >>
I would tend to agree with that assessment, Don~I do think it's definitely easier and more appealing for one to purchase a 79 cello box, even at $1,500, rather than what a 76 cello box would command, if one were to come up for sale. 77 is another interesting year~I remember 77 cello boxes sitting on Steve's site for months at $1,100. Now, that same box would command well over 4K. Rack boxes, too~I remember buying a 79 rack box about 10 years ago for $400--today one would command well over 3K, with a 78 selling in minutes on Friday at $4,800. But even higher end prices are being realized for certain items from this era. 76 wax boxes used to go for $2,500; now, they go for 6K.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>don't know how this plays into all this, but thought I'd throw it out there as one piece of the puzzle.
I was a pretty active collector as a kid '72-'76, by this I mean going to shows and the annual convention in Anaheim (before it was called the National) and dealing thru the mail on auctions and sales. At that time it was pretty commonly accepted that Frisch had a deal with Topps that had been in place for a long time that he bought all the overstock each year for basically the cost of shipping. I know he had endless boxes of '59 vending (I'd buy them occasionally thru another dealer for $5/box of 500 cards) and most other years. Up until about '73 there weren't many dealers buying cases of cards, so he must've had a lot. After about '74 a dealer named Renata Galasso started selling sets cheaper than Frisch and Martucci and I suspect she had a lot of pull with Topps- but she was buying vending and collating sets.
I don't know how long Frisch's deal with Topps went on, or if it still exists, but I doubt he had much competition on unopened overstock.
In regards to mini's, when they came out it caused quite a stir in the hobby, as they were only issued in NorCal and Michigan. I don't recall Frisch selling them but do remember Charlie Conlon always had "just a few left" as well as a Fresno area dealer named CS Perry.
When I got back in the hobby in 2000 I spoke with Charlie and expressed surprise that he still was selling boxes, and he told me he'd bought up all of Topps stock but there "was only a few boxes left". Not sure if Frisch even got a shot at them since Charlie made sure there was no overstock. His death brought out the reality of what was left and the rest of what he had was sold thru REA. I ended up with a box for just under $900 and figured it would be a while before they got back to the $1350 that Charlie wanted- I guess a while translates to about 15 minutes in todays market! >>
I truly enjoy reading posts relating to the good old days when this was a hobby and not the industry that it is now.
I firmly remember back in 1980 reading in a magazine how baseball cards had "real" value and they were talking about this new nationally recognized price guide written by Beckett a year earlier. So I grabbed a half-dozen Topps Mantle cards out of my childhood collection (all would have been in the PSA 4 to 6 range) and eagerly drove 40 miles to the nearest card shop in La Habra, California. The owner examined my cards and he told me that in their condition he could not find a buyer for them. He walked me over to a showcase and pointed to a beautiful '56 Mantle (might have been a PSA 8 today) and it had a $50 price tag on it. He replied, " this is the condition that collectors want". He then walked me over to a similarly conditioned '52 Topps Mays rookie with a $200 sticker. I almost laughed as I pondered how ridiculous it was for anyone to ask $200 for a piece of cardboard.
So I drove back home and tossed my once cherished Mantles back into their shoebox!
<< <i>Could it also be the age of collectors...as the years pass, less people grew up with the players of the early 70's, 60's, 50's. With that logic, it would mean that soon the late 70's wont be as attractive or percentage increase, while the early 80's will...I hope this is not the case. >>
I would have to think this is the case. I was born in '71 and the first packs I opened were '85. 1985 Topps unopened has more appeal to me than most other years just because that is what I grew up with.
>
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Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The boxes definitely look like they're coming from a case, so who knows how many she has. I guess the point is. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the known cases in the hands of collectors (including Fritsch) doesn't even make up 25% of the cases still out there in some old woman's shed
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>AAPL was like $50 a share in 2007, too, though, to put things in perspective.
I bought AAPL at $8 and thought I did awesome when I sold it at $40ish.
>
Successful transactions on the BST boards with rtimmer, coincoins, gerard, tincup, tjm965, MMR, mission16, dirtygoldman, AUandAG, deadmunny, thedutymon, leadoff4, Kid4HOF03, BRI2327, colebear, mcholke, rpcolettrane, rockdjrw, publius, quik, kalinefan, Allen, JackWESQ, CON40, Griffeyfan2430, blue227, Tiggs2012, ndleo, CDsNuts, ve3rules, doh, MurphDawg, tennessebanker, and gene1978.