Not that any of us would dream of under-reporting any precious metals gains Well, there first has to BE a gain lol.
So when selling, don't sell over 1000 oz's of silver at a time or more than a kilo of gold at a time...not gonna happen even if I did deal in that volume
So when buying, don't buy more than $10k of metal at a time...now who in their right damn god mind would do that in the first place with the metals in more of a downtrend than up.
And I now see why ASE's and AGE's are popular, they are exempt. What a joke LOL, but thanks for posting this because I now know how to cheat if I do larger transactions (sarcasm) which I gather was the intent
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
<< <i>Not that any of us would dream of under-reporting any precious metals gains Well, there first has to BE a gain lol.
So when selling, don't sell over 1000 oz's of silver at a time or more than a kilo of gold at a time...not gonna happen even if I did deal in that volume
So when buying, don't buy more than $10k of metal at a time...now who in their right damn god mind would do that in the first place with the metals in more of a downtrend than up.
And I now see why ASE's and AGE's are popular, they are exempt. What a joke LOL, but thanks for posting this because I now know how to cheat if I do larger transactions (sarcasm) which I gather was the intent >>
Pretty hard to buy a monster box of ASEs and not spend less than $10K. Just use one of the payment methods that aren't the same as cash.
<< <i>What a joke LOL, but thanks for posting this because I now know how to cheat if I do larger transactions (sarcasm) which I gather was the intent >>
You gather wrong. Info was posted because we have forum members who deal in qualifying quantities.
"If the customer chooses not to provide this information or leave sections blank, the dealer STILL has to file the form [form 8300 with your personal information on it]"
So they file it regardless if it has personal info on it or not? What happens down the road? Does the IRS come knocking on the dealer's door asking why they've turned in some blank forms? Can you just refuse to fill one out and still buy the product? I bet the dealers don't go thru with the transaction with the folks who refuse to fill one out.
Any dealers skirt around this by taking half payment and a few days later taking the other half so it won't look like a "related transaction"?
@ Elite CNC Routing & Woodworks on Facebook. Check out my work. Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
Any dealers skirt around this by taking half payment and a few days later taking the other half so it won't look like a "related transaction'?
Wes...I am really surprised that you would imply that all the upstanding dealers in the coin/bullion world would even consider doing such a thing. Shame on you
You gather wrong. Info was posted because we have forum members who deal in qualifying quantities
riiiigggghhhttt
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
And obviously some who will use it to lie and cheat. But you can't cheat karma
I'll cut to the chase. It's glaringly obvious that the reason you posted this is to help your buddies to find the loopholes to get around paying taxes on the bigger deals you do. End of story. What's worse, accepting/sending gift payments for bullion/coin transactions and Paypal doesn't get their cut, or cheating the Govt. in finding loopholes to not pay taxes? I can see where someone would say they're both ways of manipulating the system that is presented before them, but that's not the question. The question is which is worse. I say, neither because what the rich do is far worse than both, and THAT is where the real money is not being collected...because of the loophole(s) that is simply made available. Solution for Paypal to get their cut....don't allow gift payments, period. Solution for the Govt. to get theirs...hire alot of damn people to process those forms that need to be filled out and make it $600 requirement like it was initially proposed.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
<< <i>And obviously some who will use it to lie and cheat. But you can't cheat karma
I'll cut to the chase. It's glaringly obvious that the reason you posted this is to help your buddies to find the loopholes to get around paying taxes on the bigger deals you do. End of story. >>
Glaringly wrong, but not surprising. Carry on, your assumptions and accusations continue to entertain.
<< <i>"If the customer chooses not to provide this information or leave sections blank, the dealer STILL has to file the form [form 8300 with your personal information on it]"
So they file it regardless if it has personal info on it or not? What happens down the road? Does the IRS come knocking on the dealer's door asking why they've turned in some blank forms? Can you just refuse to fill one out and still buy the product? I bet the dealers don't go thru with the transaction with the folks who refuse to fill one out.
Any dealers skirt around this by taking half payment and a few days later taking the other half so it won't look like a "related transaction"? >>
I bought some gold from my local dealer for about $7500 in cash. If I had bought another $5000 worth 2 months later, he would have considered that a related transaction.
<< <i>I bought some gold from my local dealer for about $7500 in cash. If I had bought another $5000 worth 2 months later, he would have considered that a related transaction. >>
Most dealers (and banks) will also report similar transactions.
<< <i>I bought some gold from my local dealer for about $7500 in cash. If I had bought another $5000 worth 2 months later, he would have considered that a related transaction. >>
Most dealers (and banks) will also report similar transactions. >>
I think he preferred that I not pay cash so that he wouldn't have to report it. OTOH, I wasn't too keen on depositing that $7500 into my account.
<< <i>I bought some gold from my local dealer for about $7500 in cash. If I had bought another $5000 worth 2 months later, he would have considered that a related transaction. >>
Most dealers (and banks) will also report similar transactions. >>
I think he preferred that I not pay cash so that he wouldn't have to report it. OTOH, I wasn't too keen on depositing that $7500 into my account.
<< <i>I bought some gold from my local dealer for about $7500 in cash. If I had bought another $5000 worth 2 months later, he would have considered that a related transaction. >>
Most dealers (and banks) will also report similar transactions. >>
I'd be really surprised to hear if the bank or the dealer bothered reporting such transactions. The test is whether it occurred within a 24 hour period. If longer, than the dealer or bank has to believe that it is a related transaction for some reason. Two months is way too long in my opinion. Two weeks would be long. What's more, I don't think they would bother hassling the individual for such a small amount. But more importantly, human beings are way too lazy to be filling out forms where they aren't absolutely required to. What's more, the form requires A LOT of information that a bullion dealer is no way going to have. The purpose of the reporting requirement was not to go after tax evaders. It was to flag drug dealers and terrorist activities. >>
It's possible that the dealer may have misinterpreted the requirements. Also he would want to report it if he deposited it into his account as the bank my report it too.
As a dealer, I agree that he definitely should be reporting it all. I guess I'm just not sure why it's a big deal for the guy. I would think a bullion dealer get's A LOT of cash during the course of his business. Of which, when he goes to deposit after compiling all his receipts for a day or two, often times will exceed $10K per deposit, which will get reported by the bank. But if he's got a bullion business, I don't see that as a big deal. On the very small chance that the US Treasury or IRS come knocking to ask about the transactions, I think the whole thing would get resolved in a very short order. Unless of course there are obvious shenanigans on his part going on that you or I might not be aware of. >>
AFAIK he is pretty honest. All I know is that well after the 24 hour time frame he mentioned that for future purchases I only had so big of a window for cash and anything above that would have to be by check. I still have the cssh window.
<< <i>How would the dealer even know your name? Is he going to write Ben Franklin on the form? >>
Any form of payment other than green money cash will have your name on it. >>
Other than cash ? I know you guys are pulling my leg now. Next you will try to say when you buy bullion the dealer gives you a receipt
You almost had me for a second there >>
In the above case he did give me a receipt. No biggie, since he likely had to account for how he disposed of them. They were leftovers from a large quantity he bought to fill another order.
<< <i>What a joke LOL, but thanks for posting this because I now know how to cheat if I do larger transactions (sarcasm) which I gather was the intent . >>
That's nonsense because corporations and fairly well to do individuals hire top notch tax attorneys and CPA's all the time to ensure they pay not a single cent more in taxes than they need to...utilizing every "legal loophole" they can find. It's both legal and patriotic to pay your fare share and nothing more. Yet, if one purchases PMs by the guidelines to minimize their foot print, reporting, potential taxes, that's consider "cheating." I love the irony. On Wall Street it's called capitalism and on PM's it's cheating. BTW, many J6P's would consider the hiring of expensive lawyers to avoid pay extra taxes as borderline cheating as well. And even if those high priced tax lawyers over step the law by a few degrees it's usually the case that the IRS won't bother coming after them, or if they do, they'll get a small wrist-slap and keep the lion's share of their over-reach. So now following the fully technical extent of what is authorized by our laws is "cheating?" I suspect that sometime in your life you bought coins or PM's from an out of state source....and did not pay the required sales tax. In essence, you were cheating the system unless you are filing a schedule C each year as "for profit" business.
Thank you DerryB and JM Bullion! What a great chart! When I sold off 95% of my stash to buy a house 2-3 years ago, I had a hard time trying to get information about how to sell (over/under $10,000) and how and if it needed to be reported. This is very valuable information that can, no doubt, help us all out in the future when PMs rise and its time to sell.
What's worse, accepting/sending gift payments for bullion/coin transactions and Paypal doesn't get their cut, or cheating the Govt. in finding loopholes to not pay taxes?
That’s pretty simple. It’s the folks cheating Paypal out of their fair share. When one signs up for Paypal, they agree that they will not use the gift option for goods or services. When you do, you are not living up to the commitments you put in writing. Utilizing loopholes is completely legal, even if it results in some ‘unintended consequences’.
Solution for Paypal to get their cut....don't allow gift payments, period.
Solution for Paypal…Have people honor their commitments. After all, they did agree to the T&Cs when they signed up. Not allowing gift payments will punish those that use them properly.
Solution for the Govt. to get theirs...hire alot of damn people to process those forms that need to be filled out and make it $600 requirement like it was initially proposed.
Solution for the government…close the loopholes. If people will cheat Paypal just so they can put another 3% in their pocket, I’m wondering how much of that 28% short term gain they are reporting.
<< <i>What's worse, accepting/sending gift payments for bullion/coin transactions and Paypal doesn't get their cut, or cheating the Govt. in finding loopholes to not pay taxes?
That’s pretty simple. It’s the folks cheating Paypal out of their fair share. When one signs up for Paypal, they agree that they will not use the gift option for goods or services. When you do, you are not living up to the commitments you put in writing. Utilizing loopholes is completely legal, even if it results in some ‘unintended consequences’.
Solution for Paypal to get their cut....don't allow gift payments, period.
Solution for Paypal…Have people honor their commitments. After all, they did agree to the T&Cs when they signed up. Not allowing gift payments will punish those that use them properly.
Solution for the Govt. to get theirs...hire alot of damn people to process those forms that need to be filled out and make it $600 requirement like it was initially proposed.
Solution for the government…close the loopholes. If people will cheat Paypal just so they can put another 3% in their pocket, I’m wondering how much of that 28% short term gain they are reporting. >>
That infographic has nada to do with taxes or avoidance of same. If you choose to buy 20 1 ounce gold Krands instead of 25 to avoid the reporting requirements, that doesn't relieve you of your obligation to pay taxes on the profits from the sale of them.
That infographic has nada to do with taxes or avoidance of same. If you choose to buy 20 1 ounce gold Krands instead of 25 to avoid the reporting requirements, that doesn't relieve you of your obligation to pay taxes on the profits from the sale of them.
Joining the chorus of thanks for this excellent chart. Though I'll never wheel and deal on this scale, the "knowledge is power" axiom is what is riding here. Thanks so much, derryb.
As far as I know, the top notch tax attorneys and CPAs don't have to overstep the line because what they provide in expertise to business saves many multiples of their high fees. Their job is to define the line and to present the best available options.
As a small timer, it always pays to have some idea of where the line is, both in terms of the tax liability and the reporting requirements. Charts like this can help to give individuals a better perspective on how to approach money management when it involves precious metals. Cheating the system isn't a good idea, but roadrunner is 100% correct in that "tt's both legal and patriotic to pay your fare share and nothing more."
Thanks for the chart, derryb.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
derryb
Posts: 36,215 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
<< <i>Cool infographic from JM Bullion >>
+1
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Well, there first has to BE a gain lol.
So when selling, don't sell over 1000 oz's of silver at a time or more than a kilo of gold at a time...not gonna happen even if I did deal in that volume
So when buying, don't buy more than $10k of metal at a time...now who in their right damn god mind would do that in the first place with the metals in more of a downtrend than up.
And I now see why ASE's and AGE's are popular, they are exempt. What a joke LOL, but thanks for posting this because I now know how to cheat if I do larger transactions (sarcasm)
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Nice to know about all of my non US stuff. Off the grid!
<< <i>Not that any of us would dream of under-reporting any precious metals gains
Well, there first has to BE a gain lol.
So when selling, don't sell over 1000 oz's of silver at a time or more than a kilo of gold at a time...not gonna happen even if I did deal in that volume
So when buying, don't buy more than $10k of metal at a time...now who in their right damn god mind would do that in the first place with the metals in more of a downtrend than up.
And I now see why ASE's and AGE's are popular, they are exempt. What a joke LOL, but thanks for posting this because I now know how to cheat if I do larger transactions (sarcasm)
Pretty hard to buy a monster box of ASEs and not spend less than $10K. Just use one of the payment methods that aren't the same as cash.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>What a joke LOL, but thanks for posting this because I now know how to cheat if I do larger transactions (sarcasm)
You gather wrong. Info was posted because we have forum members who deal in qualifying quantities.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
So they file it regardless if it has personal info on it or not? What happens down the road? Does the IRS come knocking on the dealer's door asking why they've turned in some blank forms? Can you just refuse to fill one out and still buy the product? I bet the dealers don't go thru with the transaction with the folks who refuse to fill one out.
Any dealers skirt around this by taking half payment and a few days later taking the other half so it won't look like a "related transaction"?
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
Wes...I am really surprised that you would imply that all the upstanding dealers in the coin/bullion world would even consider doing such a thing. Shame on you
You gather wrong. Info was posted because we have forum members who deal in qualifying quantities
riiiigggghhhttt
<< <i>You gather wrong. Info was posted because we have forum members who deal in qualifying quantities
riiiigggghhhttt
And obviously some who will use it to lie and cheat. But you can't cheat karma.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I'll cut to the chase. It's glaringly obvious that the reason you posted this is to help your buddies to find the loopholes to get around paying taxes on the bigger deals you do. End of story. What's worse, accepting/sending gift payments for bullion/coin transactions and Paypal doesn't get their cut, or cheating the Govt. in finding loopholes to not pay taxes?
I can see where someone would say they're both ways of manipulating the system that is presented before them, but that's not the question. The question is which is worse.
I say, neither because what the rich do is far worse than both, and THAT is where the real money is not being collected...because of the loophole(s) that is simply made available.
Solution for Paypal to get their cut....don't allow gift payments, period.
Solution for the Govt. to get theirs...hire alot of damn people to process those forms that need to be filled out and make it $600 requirement like it was initially proposed.
<< <i>And obviously some who will use it to lie and cheat. But you can't cheat karma
I'll cut to the chase. It's glaringly obvious that the reason you posted this is to help your buddies to find the loopholes to get around paying taxes on the bigger deals you do. End of story. >>
Glaringly wrong, but not surprising. Carry on, your assumptions and accusations continue to entertain.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
PofM, do you have an opinion as to the government cheating the taxpayer?
<< <i>"..., or cheating the Govt. in finding loopholes to not pay taxes?"
PofM, do you have an opinion as to the government cheating the taxpayer? >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>"If the customer chooses not to provide this information or leave sections blank, the dealer STILL has to file the form [form 8300 with your personal information on it]"
So they file it regardless if it has personal info on it or not? What happens down the road? Does the IRS come knocking on the dealer's door asking why they've turned in some blank forms? Can you just refuse to fill one out and still buy the product? I bet the dealers don't go thru with the transaction with the folks who refuse to fill one out.
Any dealers skirt around this by taking half payment and a few days later taking the other half so it won't look like a "related transaction"? >>
I bought some gold from my local dealer for about $7500 in cash. If I had bought another $5000 worth 2 months later, he would have considered that a related transaction.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>I bought some gold from my local dealer for about $7500 in cash. If I had bought another $5000 worth 2 months later, he would have considered that a related transaction. >>
Most dealers (and banks) will also report similar transactions.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
<< <i>
<< <i>I bought some gold from my local dealer for about $7500 in cash. If I had bought another $5000 worth 2 months later, he would have considered that a related transaction. >>
Most dealers (and banks) will also report similar transactions. >>
I think he preferred that I not pay cash so that he wouldn't have to report it. OTOH, I wasn't too keen on depositing that $7500 into my account.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>
<< <i>I bought some gold from my local dealer for about $7500 in cash. If I had bought another $5000 worth 2 months later, he would have considered that a related transaction. >>
Most dealers (and banks) will also report similar transactions. >>
I think he preferred that I not pay cash so that he wouldn't have to report it. OTOH, I wasn't too keen on depositing that $7500 into my account.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>Thanks. At least we now know what it takes to stay below the radar.
AFAIK only a dealer is required to do the reporting, but the info should be helpful for letting one decide how to do his/her buying/selling.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Thanks for making my point in one simple sentence
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I bought some gold from my local dealer for about $7500 in cash. If I had bought another $5000 worth 2 months later, he would have considered that a related transaction. >>
Most dealers (and banks) will also report similar transactions. >>
I'd be really surprised to hear if the bank or the dealer bothered reporting such transactions. The test is whether it occurred within a 24 hour period. If longer, than the dealer or bank has to believe that it is a related transaction for some reason. Two months is way too long in my opinion. Two weeks would be long. What's more, I don't think they would bother hassling the individual for such a small amount. But more importantly, human beings are way too lazy to be filling out forms where they aren't absolutely required to. What's more, the form requires A LOT of information that a bullion dealer is no way going to have. The purpose of the reporting requirement was not to go after tax evaders. It was to flag drug dealers and terrorist activities. >>
It's possible that the dealer may have misinterpreted the requirements. Also he would want to report it if he deposited it into his account as the bank my report it too.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>BAJJERFAN,
As a dealer, I agree that he definitely should be reporting it all. I guess I'm just not sure why it's a big deal for the guy. I would think a bullion dealer get's A LOT of cash during the course of his business. Of which, when he goes to deposit after compiling all his receipts for a day or two, often times will exceed $10K per deposit, which will get reported by the bank. But if he's got a bullion business, I don't see that as a big deal. On the very small chance that the US Treasury or IRS come knocking to ask about the transactions, I think the whole thing would get resolved in a very short order. Unless of course there are obvious shenanigans on his part going on that you or I might not be aware of. >>
AFAIK he is pretty honest. All I know is that well after the 24 hour time frame he mentioned that for future purchases I only had so big of a window for cash and anything above that would have to be by check. I still have the cssh window.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
How would the dealer even know your name? Is he going to write Ben Franklin on the form?
<< <i>How would the dealer even know your name? Is he going to write Ben Franklin on the form? >>
Any form of payment other than green money cash will have your name on it.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>
<< <i>How would the dealer even know your name? Is he going to write Ben Franklin on the form? >>
Any form of payment other than green money cash will have your name on it. >>
Other than cash ? I know you guys are pulling my leg now. Next you will try to say when you buy bullion the dealer gives you a receipt
You almost had me for a second there
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How would the dealer even know your name? Is he going to write Ben Franklin on the form? >>
Any form of payment other than green money cash will have your name on it. >>
Other than cash ? I know you guys are pulling my leg now. Next you will try to say when you buy bullion the dealer gives you a receipt
You almost had me for a second there
In the above case he did give me a receipt. No biggie, since he likely had to account for how he disposed of them. They were leftovers from a large quantity he bought to fill another order.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>What a joke LOL, but thanks for posting this because I now know how to cheat if I do larger transactions (sarcasm)
. >>
That's nonsense because corporations and fairly well to do individuals hire top notch tax attorneys and CPA's all the time to ensure they pay not a single cent more in taxes than they need to...utilizing every "legal loophole" they can find. It's both legal and patriotic to pay your fare share and nothing more. Yet, if one purchases PMs by the guidelines to minimize their foot print, reporting, potential taxes, that's consider "cheating." I love the irony. On Wall Street it's called capitalism and on PM's it's cheating. BTW, many J6P's would consider the hiring of expensive lawyers to avoid pay extra taxes as borderline cheating as well. And even if those high priced tax lawyers over step the law by a few degrees it's usually the case that the IRS won't bother coming after them, or if they do, they'll get a small wrist-slap and keep the lion's share of their over-reach. So now following the fully technical extent of what is authorized by our laws is "cheating?" I suspect that sometime in your life you bought coins or PM's from an out of state source....and did not pay the required sales tax. In essence, you were cheating the system unless you are filing a schedule C each year as "for profit" business.
When I sold off 95% of my stash to buy a house 2-3 years ago, I had a hard time trying to get information about how to sell (over/under $10,000) and how and if it needed to be reported.
This is very valuable information that can, no doubt, help us all out in the future when PMs rise and its time to sell.
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That’s pretty simple. It’s the folks cheating Paypal out of their fair share. When one signs up for Paypal, they agree that they will not use the gift option for goods or services. When you do, you are not living up to the commitments you put in writing. Utilizing loopholes is completely legal, even if it results in some ‘unintended consequences’.
Solution for Paypal to get their cut....don't allow gift payments, period.
Solution for Paypal…Have people honor their commitments. After all, they did agree to the T&Cs when they signed up. Not allowing gift payments will punish those that use them properly.
Solution for the Govt. to get theirs...hire alot of damn people to process those forms that need to be filled out and make it $600 requirement like it was initially proposed.
Solution for the government…close the loopholes. If people will cheat Paypal just so they can put another 3% in their pocket, I’m wondering how much of that 28% short term gain they are reporting.
<< <i>What's worse, accepting/sending gift payments for bullion/coin transactions and Paypal doesn't get their cut, or cheating the Govt. in finding loopholes to not pay taxes?
That’s pretty simple. It’s the folks cheating Paypal out of their fair share. When one signs up for Paypal, they agree that they will not use the gift option for goods or services. When you do, you are not living up to the commitments you put in writing. Utilizing loopholes is completely legal, even if it results in some ‘unintended consequences’.
Solution for Paypal to get their cut....don't allow gift payments, period.
Solution for Paypal…Have people honor their commitments. After all, they did agree to the T&Cs when they signed up. Not allowing gift payments will punish those that use them properly.
Solution for the Govt. to get theirs...hire alot of damn people to process those forms that need to be filled out and make it $600 requirement like it was initially proposed.
Solution for the government…close the loopholes. If people will cheat Paypal just so they can put another 3% in their pocket, I’m wondering how much of that 28% short term gain they are reporting. >>
That infographic has nada to do with taxes or avoidance of same. If you choose to buy 20 1 ounce gold Krands instead of 25 to avoid the reporting requirements, that doesn't relieve you of your obligation to pay taxes on the profits from the sale of them.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Agree 100%
As a small timer, it always pays to have some idea of where the line is, both in terms of the tax liability and the reporting requirements. Charts like this can help to give individuals a better perspective on how to approach money management when it involves precious metals. Cheating the system isn't a good idea, but roadrunner is 100% correct in that "tt's both legal and patriotic to pay your fare share and nothing more."
Thanks for the chart, derryb.
I knew it would happen.