Cobb vs. Rose
Jakt
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I was having a debate with a guy I work with. Who was better? I say Cobb, he is saying Rose. We took out the HOF argument as not relevant to Rose's playing.
A big factor in his argument for Rose is that he played more, and that in itself has the merit to make him the better player. Total number of games in a season, Rose played ~91% of the time. Cobb played ~82%.
If you look at the final numbers, yes, Rose wins, but does that make him better? If Cobb would've played 91% of the games in his career, he would have beaten where Rose ended easily. The fact remains, he didn't. But he had the opportunity to play an additional ~410 games.
The fact that Rose had ~2600 more at bats is irrelevant. He made it into the lineup and played.
Doubles, they are relatively even.
Triples, Cobb crushes Rose
HR, neither was a real threat for the long ball.
Another factor is the quality of the players in the league at the time. Was it easier for Cobb to steal bases and get triples than Rose?
I think the intimidation factor was about equal with both players.
Does efficiency or durability win out?
A big factor in his argument for Rose is that he played more, and that in itself has the merit to make him the better player. Total number of games in a season, Rose played ~91% of the time. Cobb played ~82%.
If you look at the final numbers, yes, Rose wins, but does that make him better? If Cobb would've played 91% of the games in his career, he would have beaten where Rose ended easily. The fact remains, he didn't. But he had the opportunity to play an additional ~410 games.
The fact that Rose had ~2600 more at bats is irrelevant. He made it into the lineup and played.
Doubles, they are relatively even.
Triples, Cobb crushes Rose
HR, neither was a real threat for the long ball.
Another factor is the quality of the players in the league at the time. Was it easier for Cobb to steal bases and get triples than Rose?
I think the intimidation factor was about equal with both players.
Does efficiency or durability win out?
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<< <i>The fact that Rose had ~2600 more at bats is irrelevant. >>
That's irrelevant? I guess durability is worth a few bonus points, but when they were in the game, Cobb was far better. Durability is part luck.
Cobb 168 OPS+
Rose 118 OPS+
Cobb 151 WAR
Rose 79.1 WAR
Hall Of Fame Statistics
Player rank in (·)
Cobb
Black Ink Batting - 154 (2), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink Batting - 417 (1), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 445 (2), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 75 (7), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS Center Field (2nd), 151.0 career WAR/69.0 7yr-peak WAR/110.0 JAWS
Average HOF CF (out of 18) = 70.4 career WAR/44.1 7yr-peak WAR/57.2 JAWS
Rose
Black Ink Batting - 64 (14), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink Batting - 239 (25), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 311 (14), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 55 (63), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS Left Field (5th), 79.1 career WAR/44.7 7yr-peak WAR/61.9 JAWS
Average HOF LF (out of 19) = 65.1 career WAR/41.5 7yr-peak WAR/53.3 JAWS
This doesn't seem very close.
IMF
<< <i>100 greatest MLBers of all time...Cobb is #6...Rose is #37 >>
That list also has Barry Bonds at #3 and I think if the question was Cobb vs. Bonds it would overwhelmingly favor Cobb.
but I always said rose was the best "player" I ever saw. hitter, fielder, aggressive, would play anywhere and do anything to win, a lot like cobb
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Rose did not have a good batting average his lst 3 or 4 years and was only holding on to break Cobb's record.
Cobb hit over .300 his last year.
1. Quality of players-In 1911, the US population was below 100 million and peaked at around 120 million by the end of Cobb's career. At the beginning of Rose's career, the population was around 190 million and hit 230 million by the end of his career. Not only did Rose play at a time when the pool of players was significantly larger, but he also played when the game was integrated, not only for black players, but for players coming from Latin America.
2. Air travel-In Cobb's time, virtually all travel was done by train, and baseball had yet to expand west of the Mississippi. The game was played at a much more leisurely pace, not the frenetic pace of today's game. More rest meant less wear and tear on the body and allowed injuries to heal.
3. Glove technology-Players in the early part of the 1900's were using gloves that basically looked like oven mitts, with no pockets and short fingers. Balls that got through for hits in Cobb's day would be routine outs 50 years later.
4. Athleticism of the modern player-If you are a fan of baseball history, you have undoubtedly seen footage from games played before 1960. You would have seen balls that were hit into the hole, or even five feet to the left or right of the fielder that went through for a hit. It was a more "gentlemanly" game in which athleticism was rarely on display. What made the catch made by Willie Mays in the 1954 WS so astounding is that it was so unusual for a player to make that kind of play. By the time Rose came around, plays like that were much more common.
5. Maturity of the sport-When Cobb was playing, there were so many aspects of pitching, fielding and other aspects of the game that had yet to be exploited, that it was much more wide open for a player to dominate their sport. With time, the other players and teams catch up, and the differences in outcomes are not nearly so great.
Only 16 teams when Cobb played, 20 to 24 when Rose played.
More quality athletes played other sports like Football and Basketball in Rose's time, When Cobb played it was mostly just baseball.
The ball was dead in Cobb's time so it was slower and the infielder's could get to the ball.
Better lighting in Rose's time even though they traveled longer distances it was shorter and more comfortable than the train.
<< <i>
<< <i>The fact that Rose had ~2600 more at bats is irrelevant. >>
That's irrelevant? I guess durability is worth a few bonus points, but when they were in the game, Cobb was far better. Durability is part luck.
Cobb 168 OPS+
Rose 118 OPS+
Cobb 151 WAR
Rose 79.1 WAR
Hall Of Fame Statistics
Player rank in (·)
Cobb
Black Ink Batting - 154 (2), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink Batting - 417 (1), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 445 (2), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 75 (7), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS Center Field (2nd), 151.0 career WAR/69.0 7yr-peak WAR/110.0 JAWS
Average HOF CF (out of 18) = 70.4 career WAR/44.1 7yr-peak WAR/57.2 JAWS
Rose
Black Ink Batting - 64 (14), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink Batting - 239 (25), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 311 (14), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 55 (63), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS Left Field (5th), 79.1 career WAR/44.7 7yr-peak WAR/61.9 JAWS
Average HOF LF (out of 19) = 65.1 career WAR/41.5 7yr-peak WAR/53.3 JAWS
This doesn't seem very close. >>
Ok, I change my vote!
<< <i>some other things to consider are.
Only 16 teams when Cobb played, 20 to 24 when Rose played.
More quality athletes played other sports like Football and Basketball in Rose's time, When Cobb played it was mostly just baseball.
The ball was dead in Cobb's time so it was slower and the infielder's could get to the ball.
Better lighting in Rose's time even though they traveled longer distances it was shorter and more comfortable than the train. >>
Interesting points.
<< <i>
<< <i>some other things to consider are.
Only 16 teams when Cobb played, 20 to 24 when Rose played.
More quality athletes played other sports like Football and Basketball in Rose's time, When Cobb played it was mostly just baseball.
The ball was dead in Cobb's time so it was slower and the infielder's could get to the ball.
Better lighting in Rose's time even though they traveled longer distances it was shorter and more comfortable than the train. >>
Interesting points. >>
If you use those as points, how about some of the very best athletes being black and not able to compete against Cobb? By the way Cobb was as racist as they came.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>If you use those as points, how about some of the very best athletes being black and not able to compete against Cobb? By the way Cobb was as racist as they came. >>
This point cannot be discounted. No question, Cobb was a great player and still would have been great had he been playing against everyone. I have to think he wouldn't have been quite as dominant, though.
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<< <i>
<< <i>If you use those as points, how about some of the very best athletes being black and not able to compete against Cobb? By the way Cobb was as racist as they came. >>
This point cannot be discounted. No question, Cobb was a great player and still would have been great had he been playing against everyone. I have to think he wouldn't have been quite as dominant, though. >>
Would have loved to see him try and stare down Bob Gibson!
<< <i>
<< <i>Cobb. And it's not even close. Cobb is in top 7-8 all time. Rose is not even top 25. >>
Interested to hear who you put before him.
I would say Cobb is in the Top 2 all time.
I always thought it was Ruth, Cobb and everyone else, but I'm sure that's up for debate. >>
Ruth, Williams, Mays, Aaron, Gehrig, to name a few..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
All things considered, I think it's pointless to compare players from different eras. Different diets, different training (or lack thereof), different players, different culture. I think Rose and Cobb would both be elite if they played together, but again, that's unknowable.
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<< <i>As per your black athletes point, I don't think that matters much either >>
I guess I can understand how some people could consider blacks not being able to play as not mattering much, however in my opinion I think it matters a lot. I guess you and I just think differently on this issue.
If Cobb played during Rose's era he would've been removed from the league after a few short years and (if he lasted ten years) would not have garnered a single Hall of Fame vote due to his horrid racism, multiple assaults and dirty plays.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
AB Hits 2b 3b hr RBI SB
Cobb 14,053 5,143 889 362 144 2382 1,102
Rose 14,053 4,256 746 135 160 1314 198
Rose was great for sure. But Cobb is one of the all time greatest.
<< <i>That's a lot of assuming you're doing there. Who's to say Rose wouldn't have been even more of a racist if he weren't raised in that era? Or that Cobb might not have been a choir boy because he struck a chord with some African American player earlier in his career playing with them? And I'm not sure at all what would have made Rose's game so much more successful.
We could legitimately state that Hitler would have been deemed one of history's greatest and noblest conquerors if he existed in ancient times and that Julius Caesar would be relegated as nothing more than a genocidal maniac if he were a modern figure. People can only do what they do in the time they exist and within the context of when they lived. If all of us here existed 100 years ago, I have ZERO DOUBT in my mind that the majority of us would be blatant racists by today's standards. >>
That all may be true, but if all else were the same, Pete Rose would have had a more successful career than Ty Cobb if they played during the same era. Cobb's numbers are heavily inflated because of the era in which he played. Both were great baseball players and borderline Hall of Famers (if that).
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
Well, I do know one thing--there are at least 20 running backs better than Barry Sanders--at least 20!!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Cobb is top 7-8 all time. There is no debate about that, really. I have no problem with him in top 5, even.
Integration is a notable issue, but you cannot hold that against Cobb, as that was how baseball was played at the time, and how society preferered to see the game played. Also, there were fewer teams back then, so fewer players were able to reach the major league level. You could make the same argument that expansion has diluted the talent pool in the same way that integration limited it.
Unlike Rose and Ryan, Cobb is not as popular a player, mainly due to his racist viewpoints and offensive play. But why do we make the argument that the talent pool was limited during his era and don't make that same argument when it comes to Ruth, Gehrig, Walter Johnson, etc.
Cobb is 9th all time in OPS+ and 2nd all time in Offensive WAR, not to mention the all time batting average leader. You don't have that kind of resume without being one of the game's all time greats. Period.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Rose slugging % - .409
Rose was for sure a better "slap" hitter.
<< <i>But why do we make the argument that the talent pool was limited during his era and don't make that same argument when it comes to Ruth, Gehrig, Walter Johnson, etc. >>
Tim, you really think that fat slob Ruth would have been able to keep up with today's well conditioned athletes? You don't think he would have gotten one of those mega contracts and snorted his way to being a Darryl Strawberry or eaten himself into being a Mo Vaughn? He would have made a great signing for the Mets once he ruined himself!!!!
However, could you imagine Ruth on PED's. I'll be back later. I need to open up photoshop and get to work!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Here is the voting criteria per the Baseball Hall of Fame website:
<< <i>5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played. >>
Without a doubt Ty Cobb and Pete Rose have excelled in "player's record, playing ability and contribution to the team" but they are bottom feeders in terms of "integrity, sportsmanship and character." Essentially, they meet half of the criteria; I would certainly consider that to be "borderline" at best.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>
<< <i>But why do we make the argument that the talent pool was limited during his era and don't make that same argument when it comes to Ruth, Gehrig, Walter Johnson, etc. >>
Tim, you really think that fat slob Ruth would have been able to keep up with today's well conditioned athletes? You don't think he would have gotten one of those mega contracts and snorted his way to being a Darryl Strawberry or eaten himself into being a Mo Vaughn?
Hey, in all that old footage of Ruth running around the bases, he seems to move pretty fast, LOL!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>But why do we make the argument that the talent pool was limited during his era and don't make that same argument when it comes to Ruth, Gehrig, Walter Johnson, etc. >>
Tim, you really think that fat slob Ruth would have been able to keep up with today's well conditioned athletes? You don't think he would have gotten one of those mega contracts and snorted his way to being a Darryl Strawberry or eaten himself into being a Mo Vaughn?
Hey, in all that old footage of Ruth running around the bases, he seems to move pretty fast, LOL! >>
If I remember correctly, the little rascals ran pretty quickly at the end of some episodes as well! Oh Ms. Crabtree!!!!
<< <i>So in other words, at least 95% of the Hall of Fame, and probably 99%, consist of "borderline" members. >>
I would say it's closer to 50-75%, but I think everyone here will agree the Hall of Fame is crowded
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>So in other words, at least 95% of the Hall of Fame, and probably 99%, consist of "borderline" members. >>
I wouldn't go that high. But yes, there are examples of players with great stats that are better suited for the Hall of Shame.
<< <i>Commissioner Landis said no to blacks, Cobb said yes. >>
This story is filled with one racist incident after another, half of them I have never heard before and are quite shocking.
From your article:
<< <i>April 25, 1919 - Hotel Pontchartrain, Detroit, MI - Miss Ada Morris was working as a chambermaid at the Hotel,
when she claims that Mr. Cobb called her a "[n word]". When she took offense at this slur, and flared back and
sassed him, Mr. Cobb knocked her down, kicked her in the stomach, and knocked her down the stairs. She had
sustained a broken rib and had been hospitalized until at least June 1, 1919. She filed a law suit for $10,000. This
This story was carried in the Chicago Defender, and also appeared in the Baltimore Afro-American, on the front page >>
<< <i>April 16, 1907, Warren Park, Augusta, GA, grounds keeper "Bungy", clapped Ty on the back as if to say,
good going. Ty took this innocent gesture wrongly, feeling that a black person shouldn't be so familiar. So Ty
slapped him, chased him into the shed where the equipment was stored, and when Bungy's wife came to his
assistance, yelling, "Stop! Don't hurt Bungy!", Ty began choking her for trying to help her husband. >>
There's also the well documented story of Cobb entering the stands to beat the crap out of a man with no hands and the story of Cobb charged with battery for assaulting a black man.
Cobb was a cold, violent, racist man who wouldn't have lasted a year in today's baseball.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
It's well documented that Ty Cobb was an amazing player, and equally but oppositely a bad person.
One of several reasons why the Detroit Tigers face of the franchise for all time is unquestionably Al Kaline, not Cobb.