Featured Article about Card Shops and Collecting on Front of Yahoo Sports Page Today
grote15
Posts: 29,742 ✭✭✭✭✭
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
0
Comments
<< <i>Cards were cheap — 50 cents a pack. >>
The good old days!
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>Many shop owners have closed their doors and others have had to get creative to stay afloat as sales of cards declined drastically from their peak of $1.2 billion in 1991 to maybe a quarter of that these days. >>
Hiya Tim
This is a really great topic.
Something worth spending an afternoon in a round table of collectors here. Perhaps some day?
I'd like a really good study done on the card market. I could give my perspective - but it would be totally anecdotal/personal rather than scientific.
I was very active from around 1988 to 1995 - as I am today - but my point is that I was "there" during the boom.
Question: what WAS the boom? Was it an anomaly? Or what? 1.2 Billion bucks! And that was new issues.
I have a theory based on the boomers and cards attributing to some degree to the boom. Gone now and probably forever.
I have written many threads here on the psychology of collecting and what motivates us.
I'm a collector - not an investor - not a part time seller. So, my perspective is far different than others who may be motivated by what they can flip on ebay.
I apologize for the digression.
On to Card Shops.
I remember when there were plenty of shops. Many of the owners had no business sense or idea what customer service "should" be. Some were rather rude or arrogant. Time caught up with those gentlemen.
On the other hand, it was a fun time. Plenty of places to look at stuff - browse - and talk cards.
Things changed. We could talk for hours on what happened to the card manufacturers. Key? Overprinting and creating way too many products. For the shops? EBAY may have been one of the big killers?
I could go on and on. I'd sure like to hear from more people on this.
In both cases, high grade vintage product has emerged stronger than ever, with most other stuff taking a long term dive.
What I find most remarkable about these articles is that is you weren't an "insider" or actively buying and selling vintage cards at the present time, you would think that card collecting has basically become the collecting equivalent of stamps. On the contrary, though, we see record prices for high grade vintage cards and unopened product. Is it lazy reporting that explains this disconnect? Lack of proper research? IMO, in this day and age, it is completely incongruous to apply the decline of brick and mortar shops to the card collecting hobby in general. It's like saying that because video stores and Blockbusters are closing, that people don't like to watch movies anymore. I do agree with the assessment, though, that moderrn card collecting has evolved into a lottery-like pursuit and that kids today have little or no interest in cards, due to price point and the fact that people don't buy 2014 packs for the base cards. They buy them for the 1/1 DNA strand of George Washington's hair or a swatch taken from Marilyn Monroe's bra. Will that change as these younger collectors mature and gain employment and steady income? Perhaps. But one thing I will say that works against that notion is that the vast majority of us here have strong roots in collecting that were formed when we bought packs of cards as kids. The typical collector here likely stopped collecting when they hit their teen or early adult years, but we still had that foundation we formed when ripping packs as kids when we came back to the hobby as adults. What will kids of today have to come back to?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
And you think collecting BASE CARDS is better than this? Damn, this may be better than 1/1 autos or that POP 1 "10" from a 60s set! HAHAHA
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>By the way, the one thing bedeviling the comic book hobby right now is manipulation of books - pressing them mostly - to try to obtain higher grades. With the approval of the grading company. Thank God that cards don't lend them self as much to that kind of thing, because the trimming and re-coloring both fields have to contend with is more than enough. >>
Can we get into a pressing thread please!
Lol
<< <i>What will kids of today have to come back to? >>
The big question Tim
If one looks at the breakdown of major contributors here - we're talking about people who "did" open packs and returned - in the beginning usually for nostalgic reasons or their children needed our input and then they left and we didn't.
Unfortunately for me? Didn't have a mentor or anything and the net wasn't around.
When a newcomer approached our forum and asks for advice?
Mine was so simple: 1. Establish a Focus. 2. Establish a Budget. 3. NEVER violate 1 & 2!
From a collecting POV, I was shoveling sand into the wind. No focus. So, I never saw something I didn't want. Lesson? Never try to "capture" the market. Find your niche.
It's so trite - but as many have said: "collect what you like."
I agree. With one caveat: put a FOCUS and BUDGET on "what" you like.
Let's keep the dialogue going folks.
Thanx for sharing everyone.
Very salient point, Mike. I often look at unopened football racks and packs from the 1970s and as a football fan, think about buying a few. But then I think to myself, where will it end???!!! LOL!!
In my case, I decided early on to focus on 1970s unopened and graded singles for those sets for which I was opening packs. I extended my focus to early 80s a while back, but have held fast at 1983 as my cutoff point.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Things changed. We could talk for hours on what happened to the card manufacturers. Key? Overprinting and creating way too many products. For the shops? EBAY may have been one of the big killers?
I could go on and on. I'd sure like to hear from more people on this. >>
There are still way too many products being produced. Print runs aren't as high obviously but the amount of different products for each sport is stupid.
<< <i>There are still way too many products being produced. Print runs aren't as high obviously but the amount of different products for each sport is stupid. >>
1.) I collect Mattingly Registry.
2.) I started collecting Buehrle and requested his registry be added.
3.) I started looking/buying Buehrle's cards from 2000-2002.
4.) I saw the amount of his cards produced for those years.
5.) I put a hold on collecting Buehrle registry because of #4.
On the future of card collecting, I sometimes ask myself the same questions discussed here in this thread. Who will be around to collect this stuff in the future? What will draw kids to the hobby? I guess in answering that question, I have to ask myself still another question - why is it important to me? My honest answer is that I want to be able to sell off my card collection and at least get out of it what I put into it, but therein lies the problem as I see it. Since I started collecting cards in the late 1970's, what's changed more than anything is how cards are valued. Back then, it was about the cards and set building, and doing it together with fellow collectors. In other words, the value was in the cards themselves - they were appreciated for their beauty and utility as far as learning the players, player statistics, and baseball history. What I bought into back then was not potential future monetary value, but sheer entertainment that comes with collecting and set building. That's all changed now. I mean, I still collect what I like for entertainment, but I also put a heavy weight on value, and the years I collect are chosen at least in part based on what I perceive will provide a good investment for the future.
So my opinion is that if we want to preserve the hobby for future generations, a first step is to stop worrying about future value and collect the cards for what they are. Stone has given very good advice: collect what you like, be focused, and stick to a budget. On collecting what you like, I would also add, don't worry about what others think about the cards you like. I for one will also stop referring to current issue cards as "modern junk." If I want kids to collect the cards from their generation and enjoy collecting like I do (and thereby preserve the hobby for future generations), I think it's best to stop calling cards that they are likely to be interested in as "junk." Same goes for late 80's and early 90's cards. Just because it's abundant and cheap doesn't mean it's not worth collecting for the sheer enjoyment of it. Just my 2 cents (no pun intended).
<< <i>don't worry about what others think about the cards you like. >>
Good advice Indy.
My collecting interests are like no one else here.
Most of my threads get very little play - and IMO, it is not a reflection on me personally.
Many may read what I have picked up and just don't really have any comments to add.
But, I'm sure my contributions are respected and appreciated as well as others where the items they post may have a greater appreciation.
We have "player" collectors here - many of the players were not "limelight" superstars but their contribution to our forum as well as their enthusiasm and dedication is noteworthy and highly respected by most.
One of the more enjoyable parts of collecting is "sharing." No one is top dog here - everyone is equal - all collections are equal - the day we start to lionize collectors here? Well I'm sure you get my drift.
<< <i>So, I never saw something I didn't want. Lesson? Never try to "capture" the market. Find your niche
Very salient point, Mike. I often look at unopened football racks and packs from the 1970s and as a football fan, think about buying a few. But then I think to myself, where will it end???!!! LOL!!
In my case, I decided early on to focus on 1970s unopened and graded singles for those sets for which I was opening packs. I extended my focus to early 80s a while back, but have held fast at 1983 as my cutoff point. >>
thanx Tim.
I just realized I meant to say "Corner the market" - but I'm sure the message was the same.
I like your focus!
This morning, I reread my post here from last night, and it came off to me as a bit of rant toward the end. Sorry, it wasn't meant to be. I intended it as more of pep talk for me and for those who may think like me.
On a related matter, I've started my 8, 9, and 10 year old kids collecting cards over the last year or so. I've purposely avoided telling them about card values, and I've withheld card savers from them in the hopes that they'll just enjoy the cards and not fret over value and condition - I'll teach them that later on if collecting sticks with them. I'll tell you what, it took all the fortitude I could muster at first to let them open a pack for themselves and not worry about them destroying a "money" card. They have cards laying all over the floor in their bedroom, and that is just fine with me. On Saturday, I had a "full circle" moment. I found bits and pieces of baseball card in my back yard that the kids had left out there and I had run over with the lawn mower. It reminded me of a time when I was a kid and we went digging through a neighbor's grass clipping pile looking for pieces of 1972 and 1973 Topps baseball cards. Fun times.
Happy collecting to all!
1) The card manufacturers forced shop owners to buy EVERY new issue they came out with, yet they severely limited quantities. As we got deeper into the 1990s, that meant having to buy more products as the manufacturers kept pumping the stuff out, and you had to pretty much guess what would be hot (anyone remember Comic Ball cards featuring Nolan Ryan and the Looney Tunes gang?)
So much of what we had to buy was on the secondary market where profit margins were very thin. There were a lot of people trading in that market and as I recall SPORTNET was fueling some of the price fluctuations.
2) The 1994 baseball strike had a devastating effect on sales. Mine went down 80% that year. Also being in the Bay Area, the 49ers great run was over and those fans stopped buying too. Having had a previous business that went through a similar downturn, I chose to pull the plug in 1994. Basketball wasn't going to pay the bills and the Sharks were only 3 years old then.
3) People who were buying for "investment" realized that the "takeout" on selling their cards was too high to actually make any money. Most card shops paid 50% or less of market value when buying cards. So if you bought that Griffey Jr RC for $80, you could only get about $40 for it if you wanted to sell it quickly. Worse than buying a new car. A few years after 1994 everyone was day trading stocks with had a much, much lower cost of doing business (low commissions) so why speculate on sports cards?
4) Beckett price manipulation. I was a fairly active card show participant back in those days, and at every show there would be at least one 20-something running around to tables with a notebook writing down prices of cards on various tables. As I talked to some of them it became clear that all they were doing was recording asking prices for key cards, not recording actual sales. Beckett price guide sales relied on those arrows going up every month so I'm sure they didn't care.
5) Aging baby boomers. I think as the boomers got older (I'm a bit younger than a "boomer") and their kids were getting older, priorities changed. A few boomer dads brought their kids to my shop on occasion, but while they were trying to equate Mays and McCovey to Will Clark and Matt Williams, the kids were more interested in Yo! MTV Raps cards or ALF pogs.
<< <i>... yet they severely limited quantities. >>
<< <i>There are still way too many products being produced. Print runs aren't as high obviously but the amount of different products for each sport is stupid. >>
+1 For modern football, even within the same manufacturer like Topps or Panini, there are too many different products.
<< <i> On the contrary, though, we see record prices for high grade vintage cards and unopened product. Is it lazy reporting that explains this disconnect? Lack of proper research? IMO, in this day and age, it is completely incongruous to apply the decline of brick and mortar shops to the card collecting hobby in general. >>
Everything is at an all-time high. That's just inflation. Prices for everything have doubled since the late '80's.
https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/
<< <i>
<< <i> On the contrary, though, we see record prices for high grade vintage cards and unopened product. Is it lazy reporting that explains this disconnect? Lack of proper research? IMO, in this day and age, it is completely incongruous to apply the decline of brick and mortar shops to the card collecting hobby in general. >>
Everything is at an all-time high. That's just inflation. Prices for everything have doubled since the late '80's. >>
Which isn't a crazy rate of return. Isn't the rough formula for earning 10% per year that the initial investment will double every seven years?
I think the internet has really helped baseball card collecting. The more people learn about all of the different types of cards, and the sets, the players, the history, etc., it makes the hobby more interesting. The more interest there is fuels the collecting spirit. There are just a tremendous amount of cards out there. If someone wants to buy certain cards that are super rare, they can still do that for a reasonable price in many cases. For example, if you wanted a card where less than 50 known examples exist, you can probably buy one of those for less than $100 as long as it's not a major star or part of a major set. You can always buy a very high grade card of a player from one of your favorite teams for a very reasonable price (as long as it's not one of the huge stars). The point is that there is a place in the hobby for just about anyone to find his niche. And sites like ebay let you buy many of the cards you want at a click of your finger. If you wanted to do the same thing in coins, however, it would get crazy expensive. Certainly you can do things in modern or low grade, but if you wanted something like a mid-grade type set of the classic coins, it's like every coin is a Mickey Mantle or a Babe Ruth card. They can all be expensive if they are rare.
I don't think inserts in the modern sets are going away. With the newer collectors, you are just not going to be able to sell them a brand new piece of cardboard, when they can get a new song for their iphone or game or some other neat gadget. A piece of cardboard is just way too plain. (For those with a computer background, it's like the old green screen character mode applications vs the GUI based ones.) You need something else on the card to make it stand out, and I think the inserts do that. I know that many people don't like it, but I think it's just a fact of life. I'm waiting for the set where the entire base set will be all auto or patch cards.
Lou Gehrig Master Set
Non-Registry Collection
Game Used Cards Collection
<< <i>For example, if you wanted a card where less than 50 known examples exist, you can probably buy one of those for less than $100 as long as it's not a major star or part of a major set. >>
I think you could find loads of cards with a print run of 50 or less for well under $5.
<< <i>From the card shop perspective, I owned one from 1989-1994. To me there were number of things that killed the card shop.
1) The card manufacturers forced shop owners to buy EVERY new issue they came out with, yet they severely limited quantities. As we got deeper into the 1990s, that meant having to buy more products as the manufacturers kept pumping the stuff out, and you had to pretty much guess what would be hot (anyone remember Comic Ball cards featuring Nolan Ryan and the Looney Tunes gang?)
So much of what we had to buy was on the secondary market where profit margins were very thin. There were a lot of people trading in that market and as I recall SPORTNET was fueling some of the price fluctuations.
2) The 1994 baseball strike had a devastating effect on sales. Mine went down 80% that year. Also being in the Bay Area, the 49ers great run was over and those fans stopped buying too. Having had a previous business that went through a similar downturn, I chose to pull the plug in 1994. Basketball wasn't going to pay the bills and the Sharks were only 3 years old then.
3) People who were buying for "investment" realized that the "takeout" on selling their cards was too high to actually make any money. Most card shops paid 50% or less of market value when buying cards. So if you bought that Griffey Jr RC for $80, you could only get about $40 for it if you wanted to sell it quickly. Worse than buying a new car. A few years after 1994 everyone was day trading stocks with had a much, much lower cost of doing business (low commissions) so why speculate on sports cards?
4) Beckett price manipulation. I was a fairly active card show participant back in those days, and at every show there would be at least one 20-something running around to tables with a notebook writing down prices of cards on various tables. As I talked to some of them it became clear that all they were doing was recording asking prices for key cards, not recording actual sales. Beckett price guide sales relied on those arrows going up every month so I'm sure they didn't care.
5) Aging baby boomers. I think as the boomers got older (I'm a bit younger than a "boomer") and their kids were getting older, priorities changed. A few boomer dads brought their kids to my shop on occasion, but while they were trying to equate Mays and McCovey to Will Clark and Matt Williams, the kids were more interested in Yo! MTV Raps cards or ALF pogs. >>
Good points Jerry.
on #1 - some of the card shop guys I spoke with have horror stories about being forced to buy Upper Deck at $X per box for a case only to hit the Gibraltar Trade Show and find guys selling them for less than they paid wholesale!
Investing: the Japanese jumped in around 1991 or so. The stereotypic representation: the professional who bought cases of 1990 Donruss - put them in their garage and was expecting to fund their retirement home on them.
SportsNet was an interesting tool. Some guys got into "suitcase" speculation - buying and selling without ever seeing the cases they sold.
The boomers got in and out when their kids got old. I stayed. Most lost interest when they realized in 1993 that the 1991 presses were still running!
Key: in 1955 - on my block - cards were like TOYS - no toploaders - no Beckett. We wrapped them in rubber bands and beat the crap out of them. It was probably the rare one who saved them and competed sets - at least with the kids I knew?
Thanx again for the good input Jerry!
If you think of the last BIG spike - it was Pujols and Ichiro in 2001. Why? Because they had no cards (well, readily available cards) before then. So everyone clamored for their cards.
But in between?
Most "rookies" have (at least) two years of multiple cards/parallels/autographs BEFORE they play in the majors.
If you think of Puig and Trout - those products saw similar demand. Gee - I wonder why?
Kill the Bowman "Prospects", and restore the rookie card.
Only an idiot would have a message board signature.
Alas, I came back to the hobby, but I am older and wiser now on what, how and how much to collect. Unfortunately, I very rarely buy anything at the brick-and-mortar shops mainly because the material these days on the market is about the same as when I left the hobby. I don't have the answer, but I'd love to see more and more shops open up that cater to younger kids and get them excited about trading and collecting again. I'd be curious to see how many lifelong collectors were produced in the 1980s and early 1990s versus how many were produced after 1994. My guess is that most of us on here collected in the 1980s.
<< <i>Kill the Bowman "Prospects", and restore the rookie card. >>
Agreed! This is the #1 reason why I dont have interest in new products.
<< <i>
<< <i> On the contrary, though, we see record prices for high grade vintage cards and unopened product. Is it lazy reporting that explains this disconnect? Lack of proper research? IMO, in this day and age, it is completely incongruous to apply the decline of brick and mortar shops to the card collecting hobby in general. >>
Everything is at an all-time high. That's just inflation. Prices for everything have doubled since the late '80's. >>
No, that is incorrect. Prices for unopened product and high grade cards have skyrocketed at a rate MUCH higher than inflation in past 12-24 months (has your grocery bill tripled over past two years?). Prices on a lot of these cards and vintage unopened product, for example, were relatively static for YEARS before rising rapidly in past couple of years.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> On the contrary, though, we see record prices for high grade vintage cards and unopened product. Is it lazy reporting that explains this disconnect? Lack of proper research? IMO, in this day and age, it is completely incongruous to apply the decline of brick and mortar shops to the card collecting hobby in general. >>
Everything is at an all-time high. That's just inflation. Prices for everything have doubled since the late '80's. >>
No, that is incorrect. Prices for unopened product and high grade cards have skyrocketed at a rate MUCH higher than inflation in past 12-24 months (has your grocery bill tripled over past two years?). Prices on a lot of these cards and vintage unopened product, for example, were relatively static for YEARS before rising rapidly in past couple of years. >>
Agree Tim.
Less than 2 years ago, BBCEx had a "buy" of something like 800 bucks for 79T rack boxes - now it's $2500; 79T wax around 250 or so? Now $1200 and it was $1800 for a short burst.
Asking price for 79T vending - I believe around 3 to 4K? Now? 8K.
And as you referenced 76OPC BB - maybe $1800? Now 4K.
This is from memory - and I may be off by a bit - but all and all - the once stagnant market for 70s product as gone ballistic IMO.
About 2 years ago, I was offered $1300 for 2 rack boxes and that was fair retail. The "buy" on them is now 5K! Not retail.