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Are Hawaii 1883 Coins World or US or Both ? Pic of recent purchase

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  • TheRavenTheRaven Posts: 4,143 ✭✭✭✭
    I might go with both.

    I enjoyed seeing these in person when I was in a Hawaiian museum. Spent a long time looking at the coins.

    Seeing these coins make me want to go back to Hawaii.
    Collection under construction: VG Barber Quarters & Halves
  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭✭✭
    From my perspective as a world coin collector in Australia, I'd definitely class Hawaii as "world". They were a separate country when the coins were issued. That they were subsequently annexed by America is, to me, irrelevant.

    My Hawaii coins are in my "H" world coin album, wedged in between Hannover and Hejaz & Nejd - two other countries that no longer exist.
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  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I consider them U.S. coins, not world coins.

    Tom

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting....So are Danish West Indies coins then US coins as well?
    How about Philippines or Puerto Rico, or even Cuba for that matter?
    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • AethelredAethelred Posts: 9,288 ✭✭✭


    << <i>They were a separate country when the coins were issued. That they were subsequently annexed by America is, to me, irrelevant. >>



    This matches my thinking as well, but I can also see the other side. Even though the CSA was not part of the USA when they issued currency from 1861-1864, I do not consider Confederate Currency "world currency."
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  • savoyspecialsavoyspecial Posts: 7,267 ✭✭✭✭
    How about Republic of Texas paper money?

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  • ajaanajaan Posts: 17,070 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Do they have United States of America on them?

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  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,934 ✭✭✭✭✭
    US coinage with an asterisk.

    Designed by Charles Barber and struck at the San Francisco Mint. Not regular US coinage, but certainly not world coinage.
    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
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  • AndresAndres Posts: 977 ✭✭✭
    I assume you ask because you want to sell them on eBay ?
    I would list them in World coins as well as under US coins .
    collector of Greek banknotes - most beautifull world banknotes - Greek & Roman ancient coins.
  • SmittysSmittys Posts: 9,876 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I assume you ask because you want to sell them on eBay ?
    I would list them in World coins as well as under US coins . >>



    No I was curious what Darksider's said and thought.

    I've considered them US but I've been wrong more than once.
  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>. Even though the CSA was not part of the USA when they issued currency from 1861-1864, I do not consider Confederate Currency "world currency."


    How about Republic of Texas paper money? >>


    For me, the Texas and Confederate notes are "world" as well, separate countries, filed under "T" and "C" respectively.

    Paper money isn't a major theme of my collection, but I do try to obtain notes from countries that never got around to issuing circulation coinage. So I do own one example from both of these countries.
    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

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  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How about the "CAL" 1848 $2.5 gold coin? More obviously US I should think...
    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • AethelredAethelred Posts: 9,288 ✭✭✭
    Further complicating matters for the Hawaiian coinage is where they were minted and by whom they were designed.
    If you are in the Western North Carolina area, please consider visiting our coin shop:

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    1987-C Hendersonville Road
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    wnccoins.com
  • <<US coinage with an asterisk.

    Designed by Charles Barber and struck at the San Francisco Mint. Not regular US coinage, but certainly not world coinage>>

    After annexation the coins were backed by the US government for a period. I am not sure of the details now.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Are Hawaii 1883 Coins World or US or Both ? >>



    They are world coins ordered by the Kingdom of Hawaii from the US Mint. Hawaii was an independent kingdom that contracted with the US Mint to strike their coins (like many countries including China did). Hawaii was not part of the US at the time they were struck and would remain independent for another 15 years.

    Hawaii was annexed by the United States in 1898. In 1887, the King of Hawaii first had his powers reduced via the signing of the 1887 Constitution of the Kingdom of Hawaii. Both of these are well after 1883.

    If the 1883 Hawaii coins are considered US coins because they were ordered by an independent country from the US Mint, then other coins so ordered like the Chinese junk dollars would be US coins under the same reasoning.

    Here is some information on the mintage from CoinSite.com:



    << <i>No more coins were struck for the Kingdom of Hawaii until the 1880s. Under the farsighted rule of the cosmopolitan King Kalakaua (1874-91), who sought to bring the islands up to Western standards of development, representatives from various foreign mints were interviewed on the subject of a contract coinage. This move alarmed sugar magnate Claus Spreckels, whose influence in the islands made him a virtual second king. Certain that Hawaii was vital to the interests of both himself and the United States, he persuaded Kalakaua to have the desired silver coins struck by the USA to American standards. The latter provision was a key selling point, as the use of standard USA coin planchets lowered the cost of this coinage. For reasons not specified, the copper keneta was not included in this proposal, and only silver pieces were ordered to a total of one million dala.

    The master hubs and dies for this coinage were prepared by the United States Mint’s Chief Engraver, Charles Barber. He worked from designs submitted by Spreckels and subsequently modified by Mint Director Horatio C. Burchard. Six proof sets were struck at the Philadelphia Mint in September of 1883, both to test the dies and to provide souvenirs for important figures associated with the occasion. Some 20 more sets were produced in 1884 from the same dies, and these were distributed to various Hawaiian dignitaries. None were offered to the public.

    The circulating coinage of Kalakau was executed at the San Francisco Mint between November of 1883 and June of 1884, though all pieces bore the earlier date. The denominations struck corresponded to those provided for in the law of 1846, with one exception. The hapawalu, or eighth dollar, was excluded from regular production in favor of the umi (ten) keneta, or dime. This move facilitated the use of standard USA silver planchets. The eighth dollar, however, was included in the 20 proof sets struck at Philadelphia in 1884. >>

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>They were a separate country when the coins were issued. That they were subsequently annexed by America is, to me, irrelevant. >>



    This matches my thinking as well, but I can also see the other side. Even though the CSA was not part of the USA when they issued currency from 1861-1864, I do not consider Confederate Currency "world currency." >>



    The situation with the CSA is different because the USA did not consider the CSA a separate country, but breakaway states who's governments were issuing illegal currency. So CSA coinage could be considered illegally issued coins by entities within the USA, e.g. state governments that had formed an illegal entity, the CSA.

    A more modern analogy would be CNMI (US Territory of Commonwealth of North Mariana Islands) coins. These coins were authorized by the CNMI government which is under the authority of the US government without US authority. So CNMI coinage would be considered illegally issued coinage by a US Territorial government, similar to the CSA coins IMO, in that the USA did not authorize the CSA states or the CNMI governments to issue their own coinage.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Further complicating matters for the Hawaiian coinage is where they were minted and by whom they were designed. >>



    This isn't very complicating IMO as the Kingdom of Hawaii ordered them from the US Mint like many countries do. If this were used as the criteria then coins from the following countries would be considered US coins:

    Australia
    China
    Colombia
    Costa Rica
    Cuba
    Curacao
    Dominican Republic
    Ecuador
    El Salvador
    Ethiopia
    Fiji
    French Indo-China
    ... and may more.
  • pmacpmac Posts: 3,189 ✭✭✭
    It's interesting that NGC doesn't list Hawaii in their World Coin Price Guide.
    Paul
  • BillyKingsleyBillyKingsley Posts: 2,661 ✭✭✭✭
    I always thought the USA was part of the world. Did we go to a different planet when I wasn't looking?

    Regardless of that, these were minted for a sovereign country that eventually became part of the USA later, but these are NOT USA issues now or ever.
    Billy Kingsley ANA R-3146356 Cardboard History // Numismatic History
  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It's interesting that NGC doesn't list Hawaii in their World Coin Price Guide. >>


    I don't see them listed anywhere in their main US guide either. They seem to have fallen into the abyss...

    Unless, of course, NGC hasn't actually enslabbed any Hawaii coins yet? I find that hard to believe, given that PCGS has thousands of them.
    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
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  • quote from Wikipedia

    <<Mintages of the Hawaiian coins, and the numbers melted by the United States government following their demonetization in 1903, are as follows:

    Umi Keneta: 250,000; Melted: 79.
    Hapaha: 500,000; Melted: 257,400.
    Hapalua: 700,000; Melted: 612,245.
    Akahi Dala: 500,000; Melted: 453,652.>>

    So they circulated at full value within US territory until 1903.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>quote from Wikipedia

    <<Mintages of the Hawaiian coins, and the numbers melted by the United States government following their demonetization in 1903, are as follows:

    Umi Keneta: 250,000; Melted: 79.
    Hapaha: 500,000; Melted: 257,400.
    Hapalua: 700,000; Melted: 612,245.
    Akahi Dala: 500,000; Melted: 453,652.>>

    So they circulated at full value within US territory until 1903. >>



    Good note but foreign coins circulating in the US as legal tender doesn't necessarily mean the coins are "US coins."

    For example, the Spanish piece of eight circulated in the US as legal tender until the Coinage Act of 1857 and most people don't consider the Spanish piece of eight a US coin.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I always thought the USA was part of the world. Did we go to a different planet when I wasn't looking? >>



    Not a different planet, just the "US Coin Forum" image
  • LochNESSLochNESS Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭
    Zoins is dead-right on all points. Kingdom of Hawaii coins are not USA coins. And both are "world" coins, especially from the perspective of our non-USA forumites image
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  • BillyKingsleyBillyKingsley Posts: 2,661 ✭✭✭✭
    To say that these are US coins are akin to saying these two are the same issuer:
    image
    image
    Billy Kingsley ANA R-3146356 Cardboard History // Numismatic History
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