Interesting that Jeter only ranks 87th in WAR all time.
CrissCriss
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I would've thought given all the attention & mr clutch blah blah blah that he'd be higher than that. The following players have better WAR:
Larry Walker
Jim Thome
Frank Thomas
Adrian Beltre
Ozzie Smith
Robin Yount
Lou Whitaker
Jeff Bagwell
Chipper Jones
Wade Boggs
Cal Ripken
Joe Morgan
Larry Walker
Jim Thome
Frank Thomas
Adrian Beltre
Ozzie Smith
Robin Yount
Lou Whitaker
Jeff Bagwell
Chipper Jones
Wade Boggs
Cal Ripken
Joe Morgan
The Crisser
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Ozzie Smith and Ripken are the only other SS (Yount doesn't count as he moved to the OF early on) on that list and Jeter's numbers (.379 OBP, .822 OPS and 116 OPS+) blow Ozzie's away (.337 OBP%, .666 OPS and 87 OPS+), though the Wiz gets the definite nod in fielding. Jeter bests Ripken (.340 OBP%, .788 OPS and 112 OPS+) too, and even with the decided edge in power to Ripken, he trails Cal in SLG% by just a few pct points (.443 to .447).
Joe Morgan is the greatest post war 2B in the history of baseball.
You can't fairly compare a middle infielder to a corner infielder or outfielder.
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<< <i>Calling Skinpinch, calling Skinpinch..
Ozzie Smith and Ripken are the only other SS (Yount doesn't count as he moved to the OF early on) on that list and Jeter's numbers (.379 OBP, .822 OPS and 116 OPS+) blow Ozzie's away (.337 OBP%, .666 OPS and 87 OPS+), though the Wiz gets the definite nod in fielding. Jeter bests Ripken (.340 OBP%, .788 OPS and 112 OPS+) too, and even with the decided edge in power to Ripken, he trails Cal in SLG% by just a few pct points (.443 to .447).
Joe Morgan is the greatest post war 2B in the history of baseball.
You can't fairly compare a middle infielder to a corner infielder or outfielder. >>
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<< <i>
<< <i>Calling Skinpinch, calling Skinpinch..
Ozzie Smith and Ripken are the only other SS (Yount doesn't count as he moved to the OF early on) on that list and Jeter's numbers (.379 OBP, .822 OPS and 116 OPS+) blow Ozzie's away (.337 OBP%, .666 OPS and 87 OPS+), though the Wiz gets the definite nod in fielding. Jeter bests Ripken (.340 OBP%, .788 OPS and 112 OPS+) too, and even with the decided edge in power to Ripken, he trails Cal in SLG% by just a few pct points (.443 to .447).
Joe Morgan is the greatest post war 2B in the history of baseball.
You can't fairly compare a middle infielder to a corner infielder or outfielder. >>
Aren't you a Mets fan?
Hey, don't get me started on Buddy Harrelson's career OPS+ and WAR numbers, LOL!
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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
I'm a Red Sox fan, who has complained for Jeter's whole career that he was a below average defensive SS who should be playing another position, and that the media has inflated his legend because he plays in NY. But with that being said, I still admire the guy. He's definitely in the top 15 or so middle infielders of all time and a definite first ballot HOFer
Edited to add: out of the players you list, only Walker and Belle can't make a HOF case. While I agree Whitaker doesn't belong in, he's close. Every other dude on the list is in or should be, in my opinion. So it's not like you listed a bunch of slouches.
<< <i>BaltimoreYankee I agree with you he's had some great moments on the big stage no way to deny that. >>
Any good player with that many opportunities on the big stage is bound to have some. He was fortunate to play nearly a season's-worth of games in the playoffs. 33 more than anyone else.
BTW, according to one metric, he's the worst fielder of all-time.
<< <i>Jeter's defense has always been questionable. The thing that really builds his legend is that way he always came thruogh in the clutch in dramatic fashion. >>
The above is what makes him a great player. Another thing that has always helped him is how likeable he is.
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<< <i>Jeter's defense has always been questionable. The thing that really builds his legend is that way he always came thruogh in the clutch in dramatic fashion. >>
This. He is a Hall of Famer because of consistency, leadership, and coming through on the big stage. Not because he was that great of a player.
<< <i>BTW, according to one metric, he's the worst fielder of all-time. >>
Which speaks volumes on that metric.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>The thing that really builds his legend is that way he always came thruogh in the clutch in dramatic fashion. >>
This is something that only casual baseball fans believe these days. Take a close look at his stats and you will see that he's not even close to clutch.
BTW, this is from a few years ago...
"Bernie Williams is the only other offensive Yankee to have been around for this entire run, and he has exactly the same number of postseason at-bats as Jeter: 462. In those at-bats, Williams has six more homers, 11 more doubles, 21 more walks, 33 more RBIs, two more runs and seven fewer strikeouts. So why isn't he Captain Clutch? The moments that reaffirm belief, we keep. The ones that don't, we discard."
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<< <i>BTW, according to one metric, he's the worst fielder of all-time. >>
Which speaks volumes on that metric. >>
If you don't like that one, there are certainly others that show his range is terrible. lol.
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Edited to add: out of the players you list, only Walker and Belle can't make a HOF case. >>
I think you mean Beltre, not Belle. Beltre will have 400+ homers when he retires and has been an elite - as in all-time great - defensive 3B his entire career. Four Gold Gloves and lots of anecdotal praise. Add it all up, the dude is a HOFer.
<< <i>If I had to pick a habit of his that annoys me most it's his holding his hand up to the ump EVERY time he steps into the box then he turns to the pitcher and nods his head like 'you now have permission to pitch to me' I surprised he isn't quick pitched more. >>
Even though he's in the box, he's not "set" when he has his hand up like that. So it would be a balk if a pitcher threw a pitch (if a runner was on base).
"A quick pitch is an illegal pitch. Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter's box."
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<< <i>I agree about longevity and records. There is something to be applauded about being able to play at this level well enough for a long time. My only point is I constantly hear about him being the Yankee hits leader and I always think so what!!!! He's the Yankee single's leader is what he is. He isn't in the class of Ruth, The iron horse, the Yankee clipper or the mick not even Berra IMO yet somehow everyone wants to force him in there. Great player no argument honestly I think baseballs insistance on the bull crap season farewell tours just rubs me wrong I mean come on!!! >>
Jeter is 20th all time in Offensive WAR and 2nd all time as a SS (behind Wagner). He's ranked 4th all time on the Yankees list (behind only Ruth, Gehrig and Mantle). He's ranked 18th if you exclude known steroid users and he's ranked 4th for players who have played in the past 30 years. Fielding brings down his WAR to 87th, but with 5 gold gloves and a fielding percentage ranked 29th for all short stops ever, WAR is clearly weighing his errors too heavily.
Jeter is a top 20 all time offensive player and has been a solid defender. Couple that with his impressive resume and character, he has clearly deserved all the hype surrounding his retirement.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i> Fielding brings down his WAR to 87th, but with 5 gold gloves and a fielding percentage ranked 29th for all short stops ever, WAR is clearly weighing his errors too heavily. >>
It's not errors that bring his WAR down, it's all the balls that he can't get to that roll into LF or CF for base hits.
<< <i>It's not errors that bring his WAR down, it's all the balls that he can't get to that roll into LF or CF for base hits. >>
Errors contribute to UZR and DRS and then those stats are used to compute WAR. I'm assuming mlbfan2 was referencing DRS when he stated Jeter was the worst fielder of all-time, but DRS is not adjusted per position and, as a result, inappropriately can skew WAR. Here's a great explanation of Jeter and his DRS rating:
<< <i>In the past 50 years, 507 different players have batted at least 5,000 times. Sort by Fielding-per-150-games, and you find Jeter in 487th place, around names like Jay Buhner, Michael Young and Bobby Bonilla. However, sort by Positional-per-150-games, and you find Jeter in 57th place, around names like Cal Ripken, Rafael Furcal and Omar Vizquel. This is the positional adjustment, and Jeter gets major points for being a shortstop — a position of considerable difficulty. >>
But some WAR calculations use UZR rather than DRS! Here is a blurb regarding Jeter's position adjustment for UZR:
<< <i>Let’s say you only want to know about the era during which we’ve had UZR. This stretches from 2002 to 2013, and during that span, 322 players have batted at least 2,500 times. Keep in mind this window ignores Jeter’s youngest years. Sort by Fielding-per-150-games, and you find Jeter in 280th place. Sort by Positional-per-150-games, and you find Jeter in 50th place. Sort by Defense-per-150-games, and you find Jeter in 161st place. Again, right in the middle. His spreadsheet neighbors include Andrew McCutchen, Eric Byrnes and Ronnie Belliard. [...] There’s a difference between criticizing Jeter as a defensive shortstop, and criticizing Jeter as a defensive player. >>
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
antiquated and need to lighten up but that's just how I view the game. I'm passionate about it and I love that I can be. Jeter's great I'll just leave it at that. Besides I respect other fans opinion's I mean arguing about baseball and its stats and players and there greatness is just part of the great American pastime.
<< <i>Jeter is a top 20 all time offensive player >>
You're right. He definitely belongs in a group like this one:
Babe Ruth
Ty Cobb
Joe Jackson
Mickey Mantle
Hank Aaron
Barry Bonds
Albert Pujols
Alex Rodriguez
Jimmie Foxx
Rogers Hornsby
Ted Williams
Miguel Cabrera
Mike Schmidt
Stan Musial
Willie Mays
Ken Griffey Jr
George Brett
Frank Robinson
Honus Wagner
Lou Gehrig
And that's just the first 20 I thought of.
Now just tell me which of those 20 guys Jeter was better than so he can take his proper place among the "20 all-time offensive players".
It is unfair and foolish to compare offensive numbers between a middle infielder and a corner infielder or outfielder.
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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>
Errors contribute to UZR and DRS and then those stats are used to compute WAR. >>
Errors may contribute to WAR, but it's his lack of range that has him so far down the list. His errors alone don't result in a WAR that bad. He doesn't get to balls that other guys get to.
<< <i>Don't need a rule lesson but thanks. I know what a quick pitch is and it does happen plenty without an umpire calling it. Just because he shoves his hand in the umps face and digs and digs in the box doesn't mean he is granted time by the umpire. >>
Of course when he has his hand up he does not have time out, however, it does mean that he is *not set*. The rules say the pitcher can't legally pitch when the batter isn't set.
I don't know where you see all of these "quick pitches". I can't even remember the last time I saw one. Umpires must have a different opinion than you on what is a quick pitch and what isn't.
2. The overall WAR metric isn't very good. The positional adjustments and fielding measurements are akin to voodoo! Even the offensive portion isn't as accurate as other offensive measurements out there.
3. The main problem with with WAR is that they equally weight the positional adjustments and defensive adjustments, with that of the offensive portion. Offensive measurements are far more valid, whereas the other two are not. When you combine all three equally into the one figure, that is why you get odd results.
3. I'm not sure at all how the same people who are using WAR so heavily to rate Jeter, proceed with comments such as him being the best post WWII shortstop...and then just ignore Cal Ripken's 95.5 WAR.
If you think that highly of WAR to make statements about Jeter, then Jeter's 72 WAR shows that he is vastly inferior to Ripken 95.5.
Actually Post-War, Robin Yount 77, and Ozzie Smith 76.4 have higher WAR's than Jeter.
The Mike Schmidt comment is ridiculous. Jeter over Schmidt? Again, if one likes WAR so much, then Schmidt sits at 106.5. Mike Schmidt was the best player in the league several times. Jeter was never of that ilk.
Finally, Jeter does NOT have the ability to step up his play based on the importance of the game. He is the same player. The only thing that changes is the are the random outcomes within his sphere of ability...some go high, some low, some right in the middle. This is true of all players in post season, and it is only time that limits them landing in the middle in the end.
However, if one wants to ignore that, then I will play along and say that Jeter is the ultimate choker in the biggest games! For instance, in World Series games with his team facing elimination, or in game 7's, here is Jeter's performance in those most crucial of all situations:
BA .111
OB% .111
SLG% .111
RBI ZERO
One strikeout every three at bats!
PS. Jeter is great, and I'll credit getting caught up in the current hoopla and celebration, for some of the irrational statements being made.
<< <i>who gives a flying f___k about WAR?????? >>
Best and funniest post I've seen on this thread. Way to kick it old school, Tony!
<< <i>Well, for starters, I would take Jeter's career over Joe Jackson, Schmidt and Miguel Cabrera (right now). That's not even taking Jeter's position into account. >>
LOL. I'll take the 12 years of Cabrera over the 19 years of Jeter all day long. Jeter's absolute best season was not as good as Cabrera's AVERAGE. Gimme the guy who puts up .320/35/124 every 162 games, thank you very much.
<< <i>who gives a flying f___k about WAR?????? >>
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again, y'all
<< <i>
<< <i>How many of those guys played SS for their entire careers?
It is unfair and foolish to compare offensive numbers between a middle infielder and a corner infielder or outfielder. >>
C'mon, you're changing your argument. YOU are the one who said "top 20 all time offensive player" not me. You didn't say "top 20 all time offensive SS". If you had, I'd agree with you. But you didn't and now you're trying to completely change what you said so that your original statement doesn't look so ridiculous. >>
Huh? I think you have me mixed up with someone else. Better read again before posting.
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