1835 Half Dime die trial?

SoCalBigMark

The "Lead" part is between the size of a quarter and half dollar, about Twice a thick and has a plain convex reverse.

DaveWcoins

I wish it was.

It appears that it is a genuine silver half dime inserted and affixed to a lead "washer-style" blank.

STONE

Speaking of interesting Half-Dime stuff...

This counterfeit seated half-dime reverse die recently sold quite cheap on eBay (unfortunately I found out about it too late ):

SoCalBigMark

<< <i>I wish it was.

It appears that it is a genuine silver half dime inserted and affixed to a lead "washer-style" blank. >>



It appears you are correct, man did my bubble get burst.

MrHalfDime

Very interesting piece, and an interesting discussion. I wish it would go a bit further, however, and reveal what these pieces were made for. I have been collecting such pieces as they come up on the market, and now have a half dozen similar pieces. I wish the OP had provided photos of the reverse, and of the side view. If this piece is like the others that I have found, it is spherical in shape, looking almost like a 'flying saucer' in cross section, being thicker in the middle with reduced depth at the edge. On a few of the pieces I have found, there is a small detent in the center of the reverse, looking almost like machine tooling marks when using a lathe. The encasement appears to be lead; it is quite heavy and dark gray in color, although I have not conducted specific gravity tests. The coin itself, in all of my specimens, is genuine, but all appear to have been circulated before they were encased. One of my pieces contains a Capped Bust half dime, like the OP's example, only my example is an 1830. [The die marriage cannot be determined, as the reverse is hidden]. The other examples that I have are all Liberty Seated half dimes.

Two characteristics of these encased half dimes are of particular interest, at least to me. First, although the diameter of all of these pieces is similar (~3 cm), they are not the same. Each one is different, ranging from 2.6 cm to 3 cm on the examples that I have, perhaps indicating that they were not all made by the same person or manufacturer.

Of potentially greater interest is the fact that three of the examples I have contain an 1843 half dime - all the same date! Not only is the date the same, but they appear to be struck from the very same obverse die. Combine this with the fact that those three examples were the first three examples that I found, and one can imagine how I was mislead. Why would someone encase half dimes in lead? And why would they only use examples struck from the same obverse die? I have later learned that this may simply be a coincidence, as other examples, using different date coins, have appeared (e.g., the OP's coin).

My most important question remains: Exactly what are these pieces? Why were they made? For what purpose? I have had countless people say they might be a game piece, or a top, or a 'marker', or even a button. But when put to task,, everyone I have asked has had to admit that they are just guessing, and don't really know. Does anyone know exactly what these pieces are?

MrHalfDime

"Speaking of interesting Half-Dime stuff...

This counterfeit seated half-dime reverse die recently sold quite cheap on eBay (unfortunately I found out about it too late"

Sadly, I was the one who referred Stone to this old eBay listing, and I kick myself for being the under bidder. However, it is incorrect to refer to this piece, however interesting, as a die. It is not a die. It is one half of a mold from which counterfeit half dimes were cast. Still, an interesting and historic piece, and one for which I should have bid considerably higher.

Treashunt

MrHalf

Thanks for the write up, very interesting



how about a link to the eBay sale?

STONE

Linky

MrHalfDime

After closely studying the rather poor images posted in the eBay link provided by Stone, I would offer a slightly different take on what we are seeing in those images. I post these comments here not in an attempt to hijack the OP's thread, but rather to expand upon it, as I see them to be directly related.

Might this be yet another argument for why we should not attempt to study three-dimensional objects using two-dimensional digital images? Look closely at the image of the purported half dime mold, and tell me if the letters of the denomination are incuse, as they would be if this is a mold, or in relief. It is impossible to tell, as we have no third-dimension. Look long enough at the image and you can convince yourself of either; the images will seem to change over time. What if what we are looking at is actually another lead-encased half dime, only this time with a Liberty Seated half dime encased with reverse up. The so-called mold is encased in a round object, described as being lead, and of the same general dimensions as the other lead-encased half dimes seen (judging from the diameter of the 'mold' relative to the 2x2 seen in the photo). The half dime and the lead encasement have been subjected to something that left them with considerable schmutz, but I submit that the eBay item is not a die, nor a 'mold', but actually another lead-encased half dime.

STONE

You bring up a very interesting point MrHalfDime. It does seem like the "ebay item" is quite thin, and not thick like you might expect from a die or mold.
You really can't tell from the images whether the seated half-dime reverse shows raised or incuse lettering and die characteristics. It does seem though
that the entire 'object' is of one metal, considering the fairly homogenous 'toning' pattern across the entire surfaces. The fact that it is reverse-side up,
also seems to be unusual, at least from what you have observed in other encased half-dimes. The 'O' mintmark is also something of note, and of possible
importance here.

With that stated and reiterated, I am left uncertain about what that object truly is. But you make interesting points!

MrHalfDime

"The 'O' mintmark is also something of note, and of possible importance here."

I completely missed the O mint mark, even with all of the study I made of these images. Good catch, and of possible significance if we ever determine what these objects were made for. I hope someone who knows of the origin of these objects can enlighten us.

MrHalfDime

As a follow-up to the original post, and particularly to the posts by Stone and myself regarding the lead-encased half dimes, I have an update. I just returned from the ANA - Chicago, where I took five examples of these lead-encased half dimes, and schlepped them around the bourse floor seeking an answer as to what they might be and why they were made. I showed them to 30 or more dealers and collectors, all chosen because of their demonstrated knowledge and long term experience in numismatics. Among these luminaries were Pistareen, Anthony Terranova, Fred Weinberg, Paul Cunningham, Steve Fisher, Jim Matthews, and several other collectors and dealers. It is a credit to each of these gentlemen that none were afraid to admit that they were stumped, and had no idea what they are. I find it particularly interesting that I went to the ANA with five of these items, and returned with nine (9)!, including the so-called 'mold' seen in the link provided by Stone. That turned out to be yet another of these same lead-encased half dimes from which the coin had been removed. I continue to seek information on these interesting items, and keep adding to my collection of them in the process.

yosclimber

<< <i>the so-called 'mold' seen in the link provided by Stone. That turned out to be yet another of these same lead-encased half dimes from which the coin had been removed. >>


This was my guess based on reading this thread for the first time.
After all, lead melts at 621 F and coin silver at 1615, so it can't be a casting mold, and lead is too soft to be a die.

Maybe just a kid playing in his dad's jewelry shop - make a puddle of lead and drop the half dime on top.
But the number you have accumulated suggests they were made in considerable quantity.

Maybe it was somebody frustrated with the small size of half dimes - this was a device to help keep them from getting lost? :-)

MrHalfDime

"Maybe it was somebody frustrated with the small size of half dimes - this was a device to help keep them from getting lost? :-)"

Yet another shot at the small size of my favorite coin series.

Another tongue in cheek suggestion that I heard at ANA was that someone had a collection of half dimes that he wanted to display in an album, but only had a half dollar album, so he made these as 'reducing rings'. Until I find out for sure, all opinions are equally valid.