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Very cool: PCGS certifies Mint Dir's transitional Peace dollars!

This just in.... PCGS has certified five transitional designs Peace dollars from the estate of the Mint Director under whose watch they were struck in 1921 and 1922. Here's a link to the major announcement and photos:

Click here for PCGS news release and images.

-donn-
"If it happens in numismatics, it's news to me....

Comments

  • gonzergonzer Posts: 2,986 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great read, thanks for linking it.
  • GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 16,823 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This just in.... PCGS has certified five transitional designs Peace dollars from the estate of the Mint Director under whose watch they were struck in 1921 and 1922. Here's a link to the major announcement and photos:

    Click here for PCGS news release and images.

    -donn- >>



    Images from link..................

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
  • BodinBodin Posts: 994 ✭✭✭
    image +1
  • epcjimi1epcjimi1 Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭
    Pretty cool!

    Except for the Mint Director estate part of the story.

    So what will these sell for?

    Should have been donated to the Smithsonian or something similar.

    Can't wait for the Eva B. Adams estate to put a 1964 Peace up for auction.
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Hard to believe none of these were TV'ed. >>



    how in the world could you think they weren't professionally imaged & available to the pooblic? or was it a test to see if i'd take the bait and post all the links for everyone. tooshay mr. black, tooshay!

    30190594 - 30190594
    30190595 - 30190595
    30190596 - 30190596
    30190597 - 30190597
    30190598 - 30190598

    pretty sure there are links in the other thread.
    .




    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • sparky64sparky64 Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Clever estate planning.

    Cool Peace Dollars too.

    "If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"

    My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress

  • NotSureNotSure Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭


    << <i>So how far is that, while at the US Mint he takes them home? Sounds like insider self dealing to me, why isn't the gov't confiscating them and if he bought them why is he allowed to do that either? >>



    Exactly. The perks of being Mint director. How many 'Sandblasted w/antiqued Finish' Peace dollars were really going to be released into circulation??? NONE! I agree, these should be confiscated. The director gets them 'made to order', but I can't even get my HOF gold!!!
    I'll come up with something.
  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Same old argument about being monetized our whatever. Government property.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great story!
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • jerseycat101jerseycat101 Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pretty toning on a few them. Great story, thanks for sharing.
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I love them all but that 1922 PR67 is DA BOMB!

    The hair detail & color is just incredible. Anyone want to get it for me? My birthday isn't that far off......

    Thanks for sharing.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>So how far is that, while at the US Mint he takes them home? Sounds like insider self dealing to me, why isn't the gov't confiscating them and if he bought them why is he allowed to do that either? >>



    I am going to assume that he paid for them until PROVEN otherwise!

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .... break out the pitchforks & torches. Here we go again. I'm with the Capt. on this one. Innocent until proven guilty. The whole "monetization" business is nonsense - nothing more than a fabricated, excessively complicated way a bunch of lawyers once tried to push something through.

    His actions should be viewed by what was deemed ethical and appropriate at the time, not by our incomplete and biased understanding of events that happened almost 100 years ago. It's rather likely that his supervisors and associates were well aware of where the coins went...... nothing shady, deceptive, or secret. I reserve the right to modify my comments if/when damning evidence of theft or fraud is produced.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Many years ago while at ANACS we had a lady walk in with a 1921 $20 Saint that had been given to her when she was born by her uncle, who was Superintendent of the Philadelphia Mint for part of 1921. It was actually a greatly abused Proof, as demonstrated years later.

    I am sure that the Superintendent paid for the coin. That's just how they did things back then.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • erwindocerwindoc Posts: 4,925 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>So how far is that, while at the US Mint he takes them home? Sounds like insider self dealing to me, why isn't the gov't confiscating them and if he bought them why is he allowed to do that either? >>



    I was thinking the same thing!
  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 13,963 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How does a coin with "3200" physically written on it get into a holder?
    When in doubt, don't.
  • NotSureNotSure Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>So how far is that, while at the US Mint he takes them home? Sounds like insider self dealing to me, why isn't the gov't confiscating them and if he bought them why is he allowed to do that either? >>



    I am going to assume that he paid for them until PROVEN otherwise!

    TD >>



    I ALWAYS respect your opinions, Cappy, I mean, who can really argue with you, considering the studying you've done. BUT honestly, why would a 'sandblasted w/antiqued finish' Peace dollar be made? Are we really expected to believe that particular coin was going to be released? It's akin to the Mint director Moy, in '09, having a single proof ASE made, paying for it, and socking it away. SHOULD the Mint director be able to mint coins to his pleasure, BUY them, and hold onto something like that? That sandblasted/antiqued finish version, is not a trial strike, a pattern, nothing. That coin is, to me, the very epitome of 'midnight minting' of instant uber-rarities, and, IMO, is a case where the Mint director took liberties that should not have been allowed to be taken. For what possible reason would a coin be struck, sandblasted, and antiqued??

    I see NO reasonable explanation of a coin like that being made, period. Does anyone believe that COULD have been struck with a circulation intent? I'm no genius, but even I can see abuse of privilege in THAT example. What I see in that coin is an example that he 'wanted' for himself, plain and simple, whether paid for, or not. I guess we'll all be gone when Mint director Moy's estate is revealed. Will there be an '09 proof ASE in his estate? We'll never know, but did we ever see a sandblasted, antiqued finish Peace dollar surfacing???

    edited to add: couldn't remember it was Moy in '09....man, I can't even remember who the Mint director was 5 years ago.....??
    I'll come up with something.
  • NotSureNotSure Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭


    << <i>How does a coin with "3200" physically written on it get into a holder? >>



    I had the same thought myself.
    I'll come up with something.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How does a coin with "3200" physically written on it get into a holder?

    Special coins sometimes get special consideration. The proper call in this case, IMHO.

    BTW, I've had the coin in hand and the "3200" rises significantly above the surface of the coin. I'm quite confident that it could be removed, and that there is no underlying damage. Not that I'm recommending the removal. It's part of the story, part of the historical record.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,590 ✭✭✭✭✭
    can the govt prove he stole the coins? highly doubt they can prove anything

    and can anyone here cone up with legal papers saying he stole them?
  • pennyanniepennyannie Posts: 3,929 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>So how far is that, while at the US Mint he takes them home? Sounds like insider self dealing to me, why isn't the gov't confiscating them and if he bought them why is he allowed to do that either? >>



    To me it is not a big deal just one of the "perks" of the job. Most of the big shots get all type of perks. There is probably a lot more of this stuff out there. A little left of coins but you have nasa space patches and all types of stuff sold at auction and all types of military and so forth. You going to take all that stuff away that was not paid for.

    The GSA used to throw some good parties they may have been scaled back.

    I have a sheet of 4 signed 2 dollar bills signed by Mary Ellen W--------- when she was the treasure of the US. When the BEP opened the facility in Fort Worth they were presented to city council members and others. No idea if anyone actually paid for them, a retired council member gave me a few. He said they had a stack of them and he took a few home.
    Mark
    NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
    working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!

    RIP "BEAR"
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>So how far is that, while at the US Mint he takes them home? Sounds like insider self dealing to me, why isn't the gov't confiscating them and if he bought them why is he allowed to do that either? >>



    I am going to assume that he paid for them until PROVEN otherwise!

    TD >>



    I ALWAYS respect your opinions, Cappy, I mean, who can really argue with you, considering the studying you've done. BUT honestly, why would a 'sandblasted w/antiqued finish' Peace dollar be made? Are we really expected to believe that particular coin was going to be released? It's akin to the Mint director Moy, in '09, having a single proof ASE made, paying for it, and socking it away. SHOULD the Mint director be able to mint coins to his pleasure, BUY them, and hold onto something like that? That sandblasted/antiqued finish version, is not a trial strike, a pattern, nothing. That coin is, to me, the very epitome of 'midnight minting' of instant uber-rarities, and, IMO, is a case where the Mint director took liberties that should not have been allowed to be taken. For what possible reason would a coin be struck, sandblasted, and antiqued??

    I see NO reasonable explanation of a coin like that being made, period. Does anyone believe that COULD have been struck with a circulation intent? I'm no genius, but even I can see abuse of privilege in THAT example. What I see in that coin is an example that he 'wanted' for himself, plain and simple, whether paid for, or not. I guess we'll all be gone when Mint director Moy's estate is revealed. Will there be an '09 proof ASE in his estate? We'll never know, but did we ever see a sandblasted, antiqued finish Peace dollar surfacing???

    edited to add: couldn't remember it was Moy in '09....man, I can't even remember who the Mint director was 5 years ago.....?? >>



    There were many "matte" (of various styles, so I will use that as a generic term) commemorative half dollars made during the term of Chief Engraver John Sinnock. He may have had something to do with these.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Incredible. Screw the scruples debate. Wonderful pieces I'm very happy to see.
    Lance.

    image

    image

    image

    image

    image
  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm don't support the envy argument and am glad that these were made so I can appreciate them now!
    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wonder if the "sandblasted" 1921 were submitted as part of a normal submission if it would have been recognized as special. I have a suspicion it would have been put into a genuine holder.
    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • ColorfulcoinsColorfulcoins Posts: 3,360 ✭✭✭
    Ah......these are the kind of educational posts that make this forum work coming back to........
    Craig
    If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
  • JerseyJoeJerseyJoe Posts: 460 ✭✭
    I like consistency. If these are legal to own then the rest of the pieces
    with questionable origins should be legal two own.
    A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking because it's trust is not in the branch but it's own wings.
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Those are all cool, and I'll bet the mint director exchanged other dollars for them and did not "steal" them

    They're all high grade no doubt, but the only one that looks to my eye like anything more (outside of the story/holder) than just a really nice peace dollar of that date is this one:

    image

    image

    the "fabric" of this coin appears substantially different from the other coins, and other high grade peace dollars in general, in other words, most clearly a Proof example rather than a specially struck and saved "specimen" of an otherwise business strike-looking coin. (albeit true "first strikes", and well-preserved.)

    edited for clarity, thanks crypto

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That one is truly incredible!
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623


    << <i>Those are all cool, and I'll bet the mint director exchanged other dollars for them and did not "steal" them

    They're all high grade no doubt, but the only one that looks to my eye like anything more (outside of the story/holder) than just a really nice peace dollar of that date is this one:

    image

    image

    the "fabric" of this coin appears substantially different from the other coins, and other high grade peace dollars in general, in other words, most clearly a "specimen" IMO >>



    Clearly not a specimen, clearly a proof
  • MercuryMercury Posts: 1,051 ✭✭✭✭
    Beautiful and rare coins that I feel honored to see photos of, because I could never own one.
    Sorry, hard core Peace dollar fan, who is just in awe.

    Collecting Peace Dollars and Modern Crap.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Found it!
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>So how far is that, while at the US Mint he takes them home? Sounds like insider self dealing to me, why isn't the gov't confiscating them and if he bought them why is he allowed to do that either? >>



    Given that Raymond Thomas Baker was Mint Director from March 1917 to March 1922, can these coins help the case of the 1974-D aluminum cent in the estate of Harry Edmond Lawrence former Deputy Superintendent of the Denver Mint?

    Here's a photo of Raymond:

    image
  • Doesn't it seem wrong that a Mint director ends up with a valuable coin collection. It just seem like some must be inside jobs.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Doesn't it seem wrong that a Mint director ends up with a valuable coin collection. It just seem like some must be inside jobs. >>



    It's better than having these coins destroyed.
  • silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,590 ✭✭✭✭✭
    where is the proof he stole them? some here are so convinced so let's see the proof shall we that he stole them


  • << <i>where is the proof he stole them? some here are so convinced so let's see the proof shall we that he stole them >>



    I didn't mean to say he stole them I'm saying he has better access to them than you or I and it just doesn't look good
  • epcjimi1epcjimi1 Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Given that Raymond Thomas Baker was Mint Director from March 1917 to March 1922, can these coins help the case of the 1974-D aluminum cent in the estate of Harry Edmond Lawrence former Deputy Superintendent of the Denver Mint?

    Here's a photo of Raymond: >>



    Mint Director vs. Dep. Superintendent of Denver Mint. HHhmmm... I'll go with yes, the level of the position held in Mint management should not allow one estate to keep special coins vs another estate being able to keep special coins.

    Baker is looking pretty dapper in that pic. image
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,108 ✭✭✭✭✭
    what makes these different than the Langford coins?

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ttt
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>what makes these different than the Langford coins? >>



    Izzy wasn't a Mint Director? Apparently being a Deputy Superintendent of a branch mint isn't enough either (1974-D aluminum cent).

    Also, these can be traced to the Mint Director, but nobody knows how the Langford coins appeared in the SDB?
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>what makes these different than the Langford coins? >>



    I think the bigger difference is that 1921 and 1922 Peace dollars were authorized for release in silver. These are just different implementations of that authorization.

    The 1933 DEs, as claimed by the US Federal Government, were never authorized for release.

    And the 1974-D aluminum cent was also never authorized for release.

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