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why craig biggio is a hall of famer
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instead of junking up the beltre thread with this, figured i'd just start this one
several posts in that thread seemed to indicate biggio was a compiler and was borderline worthy if at all
since i watched him play basically his entire career and he is my favorite player ever, i feel obligated to defend him
i have no doubt he's going to get in next year, he barely missed this time and besides the 3000 hit stat potentially bumping him earlier, history says this is actually right on time
Positionally, Biggio stacks up great against the last two 2B in Sandberg (who made it in year 3, which is what Biggio appears headed for) and Alomar (who took 2 years)
He actually played his first 4 years as a C and later on 2 years in the OF, which if you just think about that for a minute and who else has ever done that sort of thing and still been productive should actually improve his candidacy, it certainly speaks to what kind of team mate he was. he also played all 9 positions in a game once, which is always kind of a weird thing but regardless he did do it.
One more thing to consider - something no one really talks about but probably should consider - when evaluating players at different positions or different spots in the order, you should add runs and rbis together. do that between biggio and brett and you'll be surprised i'll bet. biggio was pretty much career leadoff hitter, brett was a 3/4 guy mostly, thus the individual stat differences but the very similar total when added.
OK, with that out of the way let's put Biggio up against Robin Yount - i NEVER hear anyone saying Yount should not be in the Hall
Yount/Biggio
BA - .285 v .281
Runs - 1,632 v 1844
2B - 583 v 668
HR - 251 v 291
RBI - 1406 v 1175
BB - 966 v 1160
OBP - .342 v .363
SB - 271 v 414
All Star games - 3 v 7
Silver Slugger - 3 v 5
Gold Glove - 1 v 4
Yes, Yount had 2 MVPs and a World Series ring, but that is literally THE difference. If Astros had won the World Series in 2004, probably a different conversation. if they'd have just been better in postseason that would have probably done it.
PS - would anyone call George Brett a compiler? i doubt it, but go and compare those "last 5 years" and see if you don't feel different. if you add the runs/rbis as I've suggested, Biggio and Brett are actually pretty close. Again, an MVP and a WS ring certainly factor in and should, but other than the higher batting average Biggio can compete. Not to mention, these were American League guys, their offensive stats SHOULD be better than his but they really aren't - and defensively, he's easily competitive.
BOTTOM LINE - if you think Biggio is not worthy, then there are plenty of plaques you're going to need to take down. This dude was a really good player if not great, he was great in the clubhouse and with the fans, and he stayed in one place his entire career. he's got the numbers and the pedigree, and next year his wait should finally be over.
Here's to the Class of '15 - will be my first trip to Cooperstown and I'm really looking forward to it.
several posts in that thread seemed to indicate biggio was a compiler and was borderline worthy if at all
since i watched him play basically his entire career and he is my favorite player ever, i feel obligated to defend him
i have no doubt he's going to get in next year, he barely missed this time and besides the 3000 hit stat potentially bumping him earlier, history says this is actually right on time
Positionally, Biggio stacks up great against the last two 2B in Sandberg (who made it in year 3, which is what Biggio appears headed for) and Alomar (who took 2 years)
He actually played his first 4 years as a C and later on 2 years in the OF, which if you just think about that for a minute and who else has ever done that sort of thing and still been productive should actually improve his candidacy, it certainly speaks to what kind of team mate he was. he also played all 9 positions in a game once, which is always kind of a weird thing but regardless he did do it.
One more thing to consider - something no one really talks about but probably should consider - when evaluating players at different positions or different spots in the order, you should add runs and rbis together. do that between biggio and brett and you'll be surprised i'll bet. biggio was pretty much career leadoff hitter, brett was a 3/4 guy mostly, thus the individual stat differences but the very similar total when added.
OK, with that out of the way let's put Biggio up against Robin Yount - i NEVER hear anyone saying Yount should not be in the Hall
Yount/Biggio
BA - .285 v .281
Runs - 1,632 v 1844
2B - 583 v 668
HR - 251 v 291
RBI - 1406 v 1175
BB - 966 v 1160
OBP - .342 v .363
SB - 271 v 414
All Star games - 3 v 7
Silver Slugger - 3 v 5
Gold Glove - 1 v 4
Yes, Yount had 2 MVPs and a World Series ring, but that is literally THE difference. If Astros had won the World Series in 2004, probably a different conversation. if they'd have just been better in postseason that would have probably done it.
PS - would anyone call George Brett a compiler? i doubt it, but go and compare those "last 5 years" and see if you don't feel different. if you add the runs/rbis as I've suggested, Biggio and Brett are actually pretty close. Again, an MVP and a WS ring certainly factor in and should, but other than the higher batting average Biggio can compete. Not to mention, these were American League guys, their offensive stats SHOULD be better than his but they really aren't - and defensively, he's easily competitive.
BOTTOM LINE - if you think Biggio is not worthy, then there are plenty of plaques you're going to need to take down. This dude was a really good player if not great, he was great in the clubhouse and with the fans, and he stayed in one place his entire career. he's got the numbers and the pedigree, and next year his wait should finally be over.
Here's to the Class of '15 - will be my first trip to Cooperstown and I'm really looking forward to it.
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Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>he also played all 9 positions in a game once, which is always kind of a weird thing but regardless he did do it.
>>
When was this? College? He didn't do it in MLB.
<< <i>Yes , I think in will get in at some point. If just on stats easy to pick what is the number that gets players in. But it does come down to if liked, good team, World Series ring, drug use, etc, etc >>
i agree with this as well - looking back, the doggone braves tripped us up 2-3 times during their hey days and the cardinals did it to us the others, how different it could have been but no one remembers who didn't win
biggio has all the personal stuff, was really just missing the MVP type year and a Series win
i think that's what makes him a 3rd ballot guy and not a 1st ballot guy - but calling him a compiler is not accurate at all, and even if he was there are plenty of compilers waiting to welcome him in
<< <i>
<< <i>he also played all 9 positions in a game once, which is always kind of a weird thing but regardless he did do it.
>>
When was this? College? He didn't do it in MLB. >>
might have been a preseason game one of they years toward the end actually
He should get in next year, but he could also get bumped again by the Unit/Pedro/Smoltz trifecta like he did last year. 2016 only has Griffey as a 1st balloter, so you could see 2 out of the Biggio/Bagwell/Raines/Piazza group get in if any of them start to gain momentum. I think it would be cool if Biggio and Bagwell went in together.
Lee
<< <i>
i think that's what makes him a 3rd ballot guy and not a 1st ballot guy - but calling him a compiler is not accurate at all, and even if he was there are plenty of compilers waiting to welcome him in >>
C'mon. The last eight years of his career, he basically hit .260 with an OPS+ of around 95. That's pretty much the definition of a compiler.
And you absolutely have to concede that he was a compiler. If he does not play a full season at 41 years old, he does not get 3000 hits. He also never played under 100 games after his rookie year. That's great conditioning, but also great fortune. Missing half of any one of those seasons would have also put him under 3000. Not saying he is not going in. I'm saying you have to grant the compiler argument.
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<< <i>Along the same lines, I never thought Barry Larkin as a HOF. >>
Larkin was another player who was average at best for the last 6 years of his career, but he was better than Biggio. Even with the disparity in career HRs and all Biggio's doubles, Larkin had a higher SLG % and OPS.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Along the same lines, I never thought Barry Larkin as a HOF. >>
How about Jeter?
were dropping gradually over the years? Here's 50 million reasons he continued to compile.
1999 33 Houston Astros $6,060,000 ? 4/6/99 USA Today
2000 34 Houston Astros $6,750,000 ? 4/5/00 AP
2001 35 Houston Astros $7,750,000 ? 4/6/01 USA Today
2002 36 Houston Astros $8,750,000 ? 4/3/02 AP
2003 37 Houston Astros $9,750,000 ? 4/3/03 AP
2004 38 Houston Astros $3,000,000 ? 4/7/04 AP
2005 39 Houston Astros $3,000,000 ?
2006 40 Houston Astros $4,000,000 ?
2007 41 Houston Astros $5,150,000 ?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I don't get the "he was a compiler" argument. Was he suppose to walk away from millions just because his numbers
were dropping gradually over the years? Here's 50 million reasons he continued to compile.
1999 33 Houston Astros $6,060,000 ? 4/6/99 USA Today
2000 34 Houston Astros $6,750,000 ? 4/5/00 AP
2001 35 Houston Astros $7,750,000 ? 4/6/01 USA Today
2002 36 Houston Astros $8,750,000 ? 4/3/02 AP
2003 37 Houston Astros $9,750,000 ? 4/3/03 AP
2004 38 Houston Astros $3,000,000 ? 4/7/04 AP
2005 39 Houston Astros $3,000,000 ?
2006 40 Houston Astros $4,000,000 ?
2007 41 Houston Astros $5,150,000 ? >>
Of course he's not going to walk away from money. But that has nothing to do with the compiler tag. His combined WAR his last two seasons is -1.7. And if he has 2875 hits instead of 3060, he never gets in. Have to tell it like it is.
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Another thing the 100 percent deal just irritates me, I mean the greatest of all time didn't even get it, Ruth, Williams hell Mantle got 88 percent?!?! Really wish fans would just drop the outrage over that also.
Last 7 years of their career:
Ripkin - 517 Runs, 1097 hits, 134 HRs, 591 RBI, 3 SBs, 276/330/764
Biggio - 657 Runs, 1091 hits, 131 HRs, 434 RBI, 56 SBs, 265/333/765
I don't see much of a difference??
<< <i>Oh my favorite 'had to wait for the hall guy' has to be Warren Spahn. The man won 20 games 11 times, if it wasn't for World War Two he wins 400 and he gets in in 73!!! He retired in 65? Fans are worked up over Biggio? They just arnt history buffs I guess. >>
It took Joe Dimaggio three tries to get in as well.
As a die hard O's fan it pains me to agree but I've always thought Ripken was over-rated only in that I feel the streak hurt his play. The last few years of it you'd have to be blind not to see how slow his bat got playing day after day. That being said I'd go back to the big moments argument, Two MVP's, ROY, 83 WS and he basically changed how the SS position is looked at by his play. A middle of the order run producer was a extreme rarity Banks and Wagner the exceptions before him both easy HOF'rs.
<< <i>Yount accumulated all of his numbers by the time he retired at the age of 37, not 41 like Biggio. >>
Yount broke into the bigs at 18 and played 20 seasons, 2856 games
Biggio broke into the bigs at 22 and played 20 seasons, 2850 games
Yount's 1st MVP season was terrific - no questions there. His 2nd, however, could have been just luck of that year.
.318, 21 HRs, 103 RBI, 195 H and 101 R
Biggio's best season in 1998 he hit .325 (better), 20 HRs (1 short), 88 RBIs (less, but wait), 210 H (better) and 123 R (better, and when added to RBI was better), and he had 50 steals just for good measure. That was also the Sosa/McGwire season, so there was no way someone else was going to win that year.
Not to mention, leadoff hitters and specifically 2B have so rarely ever won the MVP anyway, it's what should differentiate candidacy to some degree and I think it has. It should not in any way be a required measuring stick, though. In the last 40 years, 2B have won it 5 times total between leagues and only 4 players. As far as leadoff hitters go, it's pretty much the same story.
<< <i>I agree that he is a hall of famer. I disagree that he is in the same class as Sandberg and Alomar. >>
i'm not sure it matters who is in the better "class" between Sandberg and Alomar, I'm simply stating that his statistics alone make him comparable to those guys, and if the history for 2B holds true Biggio should make it next year on his 3rd ballot, which is exactly how many times it took for Sandberg
<< <i>George Brett to Biggio by brushing aside the batting average argument since that is the main argument >>
<< <i>The last eight years of his career, he basically hit .260 with an OPS+ of around 95. That's pretty much the definition of a compiler. >>
i'm not brushing anything aside - his career average is 24 points better, he had batting titles, MVP, etc. Brett was also a 1st ballot guy at 98%. All makes sense, he should have been first ballot and those things are what I think distinguishes him over CB as a 1st ballot.
What i am saying, however, is that CBs other stats are quite similar if not better, overall "run production" is virtually identical, Brett played 21 years with the last 3 as a DH (400+ hits during that span at around a .270 clip; no one wants to talk about THAT). If Brett had retired even 1 year earlier, he barely gets the 3,000 plateau (it would have been in roughly 200 fewer games which would matter, again thanks to batting average). Brett was ABSOLUTELY a compiler in that regard.
People accuse CB of being a "COMPILER", but no one ever says that of guys like Brett/Molitor/Yount/Ripken, etc. ALSO OF NOTE, all of those guys I'm comparing to (and I could find plenty of others) played in the American League. So did Alomar.
COMPILATION is ultimately part of the game, and it shouldn't be seen as a negative especially for someone who played their entire career in the National League. And to suggest that only the 3000 hit benchmark is what is saving Biggio is silly.
<< <i>I think it would be cool if Biggio and Bagwell went in together. >>
I agree with this and was hoping that it might happen, these two guys WERE the Astros and if Jeff hadn't blew out that shoulder he would have been able to improve his chances. Unfortunately, Bagwell obviously has a much tougher road to make it and I worry he may not ever get there. But maybe getting Biggio in will raise awareness for Bagwell and keep his vote totals headed the right direction.
<< <i>How about Jeter? >>
Don't know if you're talking about Johnny Jeter b/c Derek (as much as he's toast now) is a slam dunk first year of eligibility HOFer.
<< <i>
<< <i>How about Jeter? >>
Don't know if you're talking about Johnny Jeter b/c Derek (as much as he's toast now) is a slam dunk first year of eligibility HOFer. >>
+1
And I'm not even a Yankee fan.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Yes I agree they all compiled later in there careers as most ball players do. I think the argument is that Biggio has non of these moments to distinguish his admittedly great career. >>
i understand that, and the argument i'm making is that those moments are the difference between 1st ballot hall of famers and the rest
those guys are top tier, and i've never said i felt like biggio was top tier, i'm just saying his "compilation" is pretty much just as good as theirs
the hall of fame isn't just for people with great stats AND moments, but if it is then biggio did have at least the 3000 hit moment
i'm going to happy when he makes it, regardless of when, i'm disappointed he isn't already there but in the end once you're there who cares how long it took? not me…
<< <i>
<< <i>How about Jeter? >>
Don't know if you're talking about Johnny Jeter b/c Derek (as much as he's toast now) is a slam dunk first year of eligibility HOFer. >>
I completely agree, but if Larkin and Jeter switched teams, I don't think there would be any question on Larkin either. Near equal WAR, both well-respected captains, nod to Jeter on offense, and Larkin on defense.
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<< <i>Biggio should get in based on collecting 3000 hits alone. Whether he was a compiler or not, 3,000 is a milestone that puts him in a very unique and special class. >>
Absolutely
I agree with that assessment.
The ironic thing about the "compiler" Biggio is that had he retired five seasons earlier than he did instead of continuing to draw a paycheck as as a mediocre at best player just to get to 3,000 hits, I'd feel even better about him making the HOF.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
So what are the odds 14 years from now there are conversations out there wondering if Jeff Kent will get voted in before his last turn on the ballot? Biggio will need to be in before Kent gets many looks, but then how does it go for him? Objectively, there are some decent points made on paper for and against him in some articles I've read.
Here are Biggio's and Yount's best OPS+ seasons, listed from their best down to their worst:
Biggio....Yount....Sandberg
143........166......145
142........152......140
139........150......140
138........132......138
131........126......134
120........125......131
118........125......111
114........115......109
114........114.......98
113........110.......97
111........102......90
105........102.......83
104........98.........83
96..........94........82
93..........90.......-7
93..........90.......NOT GOOD ENOUGH
88..........83.......NOT GOOD ENOUGH
84..........79.......NOT GOOD ENOUGH
75*........76.......NOT GOOD ENOUGH
71.........N/A......NOT GOOD ENOUGH
Really, the only difference between the two is that Yount had three years better than Biggio's best...so Yount's star did shine better at his best, a nod to Yount.
However, for people talking about 'compiling', Yount had just as many 'compiling type' seasons as Biggio, he just happened to have a his split between his teenage years and old man years. Yount should not be penalized because he was capable of being a MLB starter at age 19, nor should Biggio be penalized because he was capable of being a viable MLB starter at age 40.
Guys that should be 'penalized' are the ones who petered out at age 34/35, like Dick Allen, Jim Rice...guys who were no longer good enough to hold a MLB job.
Compare Biggio to Sandberg, and they have similar six year peaks....but BIggio blows Sandberg away for the other 14 years.
To get past the compiling issue, all one needs to do is a ten year peak measurement, and when you do that, the guys like Brett, Murray, who played for a very long time, also dominated at their peak as well.
The best players are the ones who dominated their peak AND were good enough to play at a young age, and at an old age.
<< <i>So what are the odds 14 years from now there are conversations out there wondering if Jeff Kent will get voted in before his last turn on the ballot? Biggio will need to be in before Kent gets many looks, but then how does it go for him? Objectively, there are some decent points made on paper for and against him in some articles I've read. >>
IMO, I was shocked how few votes Jeff Kent got. He has more HRS than ANY 2B EVER. That should be enough.
<< <i>Really, the only difference between the two is that Yount had three years better than Biggio's best...so Yount's star did shine better at his best, a nod to Yount.
Compare Biggio to Sandberg, and they have similar six year peaks....but BIggio blows Sandberg away for the other 14 years. >>
Exactly - on just the stats, Biggio is easily competitive. Granted he didn't have those breakout type years, but the compiler label is just silly unless we're going to label everyone who played 15+ seasons compilers.
Beyond the stats, when you look at things like community, fan interaction, clubhouse, teammate, etc. Biggio is a really easy choice.
It's those things why I suspect Jeff Kent's vote totals aren't very good. He wasn't well known for any of those things while he played.
<< <i>
<< <i>So what are the odds 14 years from now there are conversations out there wondering if Jeff Kent will get voted in before his last turn on the ballot? Biggio will need to be in before Kent gets many looks, but then how does it go for him? Objectively, there are some decent points made on paper for and against him in some articles I've read. >>
IMO, I was shocked how few votes Jeff Kent got. He has more HRS than ANY 2B EVER. That should be enough. >>
Yeah, I really thought Kent would have had a noticeably higher percentage of votes this year too. I didn't expect he'd be on the cusp of induction first time around like Biggio ended up, but certainly a lot closer than he was.
The closest thing to a compiler in the 3,000 hit club is probably Lou Brock with only ONE season with an OPS+ over 130, and a lifetime OPS+ of 109....and he wasn't providing middle infield value like Biggio.
For a compiler, I would need a guy who has a lifetime OPS+ of 100, never having any years significantly better than 100...and playing for 25 years to achieve some hit milestone. Hard to find any player close to that description.
People mis-label compilers all the time....just as in the case of Biggio here.
Also wanted to add, that in addition to Biggio being right there with Yount and Sandberg in hitting, Biggio was also an excellent base runner and had some excellent SB seasons with low caught stealings.
I think 99.8% of the male population in the country would feel truly honored to be able to 'compile' 20 years as a full time starter in MLB, and still be able to remain a league average player or better as an 'old man'.
Not to mention the 13 years of being excellent to All-Star to MVP caliber.
8 years of Biggio being a league average MLB player or better from age 35-41, requires much more honor and praise than Jim Rice, who was no longer good enough to be employed by the age of 35...and then was no better than any of us from that point forward.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>And while we're comparing stats of players, there's the great Mattingly-Puckett debate. Either both get in or both get denied. >>
No way. False comparison. Besides the obvious fact that they played different positions - one playing a premium defensive spot, the other playing the (by far) easiest on the diamond - it's not a valid comparison because of how their careers ended. Puckett was an elite player for 10 straight years then forced to retire. Mattingly was an elite player for 6 years, then fell off a cliff and played 6 more years before quitting because he'd stopped being good. Any similarities between their career totals is just dumb luck.
<< <i>
<< <i>And while we're comparing stats of players, there's the great Mattingly-Puckett debate. Either both get in or both get denied. >>
No way. False comparison. Besides the obvious fact that they played different positions - one playing a premium defensive spot, the other playing the (by far) easiest on the diamond - it's not a valid comparison because of how their careers ended. Puckett was an elite player for 10 straight years then forced to retire. Mattingly was an elite player for 6 years, then fell off a cliff and played 6 more years before quitting because he'd stopped being good. Any similarities between their career totals is just dumb luck. >>
Mattingly didn't fall off a cliff, he sustained a serious back injury.