Is Machine Doubling ever worth a premium? It sure does look really cool!!!

What say you?


Here is also a great thread with pictures!
Machine/Shelf Doubling


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Comments

  • Do you have a better pic of that date as it is showing rotation but I can not tell if separation is occurring, it can be a bit harder to tell MD from real doubled die issues on a circ coin.
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,700
    No value add and there is no doubled die for the 21 or 21d. Better date nice album filler quality example
  • TookybanditTookybandit Posts: 3,367 ✭✭✭
    It's just machine doubling.

    image
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 12,836 ✭✭✭
    .
    i won't do it but i've seen plenty of others that have.
    .
    John {3:16} For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
    that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    {3:17} For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    by how gentle degrees does God prepare us for His will. - download
    Jrm 29:11-13, Hb 11:6, Rv 3:20
  • NotSureNotSure Posts: 2,872 ✭✭✭
    Not to me, matter of fact, I would tend to pay less due to it. But, as has been said, it's a really decent hole filler for a semi-key date Merc.
    I'll come up with something.
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 7,808 ✭✭✭✭
    There is a premium often attached to the "poor man's" 1955 doubled die, which is just machine doubling.
    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 24,392 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To the more numismatically educated, there will likely never be any real premium for such.
    To more pure collectors, who may not be as educated and are buying what they want and think is cool, yeah, I think there is some premium.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 16,562 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree they are very cool to look at and fun to collect.

    As to premium, is it the difference between an error and a variety?
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,756 ✭✭✭
    No premium.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • lostincoinslostincoins Posts: 4,299
    No premium applies to this type of error as it is strictly caused by the machine it self and not through true human error as it were. Yes it does happen because someone was not watching what was going on and machine doubling is a random effect seen on so many different coins and is not something attributable to particular dies. Essentially it is damage that occurs randomly, most likely because something was not adjusted right. True doubled dies are attributable to a specific die pairing and the doubling happened when the dies were being prepared. Because of this the doubling is at some time caught and the dies switched out, this causes a quantifiable amount of coins produced with the doubled die and that is what helps to determine the value. With machine doubling it happens on so many random denominations in the thousands of thousands and can not be attributed to a single die pairing thus no value. I hope this helps.
  • howardshowards Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭
    Many eBay sellers think there is a huge premium.

    They are, of course, wrong.

    I have seen some cases of machine doubling far more extreme than you posted, and I wouldn't pay a dime extra for it.

    Some examples:

    This 1867 shows heavy strike doubling. It also shows a shield nickel date punch over a seated liberty dime date punch (note the flag of the 7 far right).

    image

    This 1873 shows heavy strike doubling.

    image

    This 1873 shows the heaviest strike doubling I've seen on a shield nickel.

    image
  • pcunixpcunix Posts: 620


    << <i>No premium applies to this type of error as it is strictly caused by the machine it self and not through true human error as it were. Yes it does happen because someone was not watching what was going on and machine doubling is a random effect seen on so many different coins and is not something attributable to particular dies. Essentially it is damage that occurs randomly, most likely because something was not adjusted right. True doubled dies are attributable to a specific die pairing and the doubling happened when the dies were being prepared. Because of this the doubling is at some time caught and the dies switched out, this causes a quantifiable amount of coins produced with the doubled die and that is what helps to determine the value. With machine doubling it happens on so many random denominations in the thousands of thousands and can not be attributed to a single die pairing thus no value. I hope this helps. >>



    If "something was not adjusted right", that is human error image

  • pcunixpcunix Posts: 620


    << <i>Many eBay sellers think there is a huge premium.

    They are, of course, wrong.

    I have seen some cases of machine doubling far more extreme than you posted, and I wouldn't pay a dime extra for it.

    ...

    This 1873 shows the heaviest strike doubling I've seen on a shield nickel.
    >>



    Question: is MD more common now with high speed presses than it was in the 1860's? Is it more common after 1833 than before?
  • pcunixpcunix Posts: 620
    And something else..

    I have one of these: 1871 2C VP-002

    If it were not for that link, I would have thought it to be MD.

    image
  • fcloudfcloud Posts: 12,010 ✭✭✭
    No added value; however, you really need to know the difference.


    image

    President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wouldn't pay a premium for most strike doubling, but I have paid premiums for some of the dramatic double profile
    middle date large cents, for the coolness factor.

    Successful BST transactions with 136 members. Recent: relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, BAJJERFAN, Valenti151, GotTheBug, okiedude, jhdfla, LRCTom, ajaan, Raybo
  • TookybanditTookybandit Posts: 3,367 ✭✭✭
    Great responses, thank you for the help! If I can dig it up, I have a Peace dollar with profile doubling that I will try to post. I know I didn't dream it ...I think!?!

  • OKbustchaserOKbustchaser Posts: 4,847 ✭✭✭
    There is a premium to anything if you find the right buyer.image
    Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 9,808 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not to me. However, some collectors do pay up for these but I'm not sure why.
    The bitterness of "poor quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 18,121 ✭✭✭✭✭
    nice pics howards.
  • pcunixpcunix Posts: 620


    << <i>And something else..

    I have one of these: 1871 2C VP-002

    If it were not for that link, I would have thought it to be MD.

    image >>



    I don't want this to get lost: what is it that you see that makes this NOT MD?

    And, was MD less common in the 1800's than it is now - I've seen "Longacre doubling" which I assume is MD, but did this increase as press speeds increased? Would there have been less before 1833 (steam)?

    And could someone explain how MD happens on both sides on one coin? The bottom die bounces because it's loose when the top hits?

    And (so many questions, sorry) how do you discern DDD (die deterioration doubling) from MD?
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,700


    << <i>Not to me. However, some collectors do pay up for these but I'm not sure why. >>



    Because they are ignorant to the difference between them and doubled dies. They don't grasp that one is a quality issue that happens during production and the other is a consistent abnormality in the die its self.

    Dealers often hawk them to people as special. The poor mans 55 premium is more because of a well managed promotion that piggy backed off of its famous cousin than a significant coin.
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i><< Not to me. However, some collectors do pay up for these but I'm not sure why. >>

    Because they are ignorant to the difference between them and doubled dies. They don't grasp that one is a quality issue that happens during production and the other is a consistent abnormality in the die its self. >>



    Like I posted earlier:
    I wouldn't pay a premium for most strike doubling, but I have paid premiums for some of the dramatic double profile
    middle date large cents, for the coolness factor.


    So color me ignorant - though I knew darn well what I was buying, and there was no deception on the part of the dealer - whatever happened to "buy what you like"?

    Successful BST transactions with 136 members. Recent: relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, BAJJERFAN, Valenti151, GotTheBug, okiedude, jhdfla, LRCTom, ajaan, Raybo
  • howardshowards Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>And something else..

    I have one of these: 1871 2C VP-002

    If it were not for that link, I would have thought it to be MD.

    image >>



    I don't want this to get lost: what is it that you see that makes this NOT MD?

    And, was MD less common in the 1800's than it is now - I've seen "Longacre doubling" which I assume is MD, but did this increase as press speeds increased? Would there have been less before 1833 (steam)?

    And could someone explain how MD happens on both sides on one coin? The bottom die bounces because it's loose when the top hits?

    And (so many questions, sorry) how do you discern DDD (die deterioration doubling) from MD? >>



    1) It should be more evident in person. I would expect the doubling on the 2 center to not be low and shelflike like MD. Also, I think you can see a notch on the lower right of the second 1.

    2) Longacre doubling is not MD. James Barton Longacre, chief engraver of the mint, was occasionally fond of reworking the edges of devices on dies with a little extra handcutting. That is what creates Longacre doubling - it will occur the same on every coin struck from the die after Longacre modified it. MD is extremely common and pronounced on shield nickels (1866-1883). I don't know how that relates to press technologies.

    3) MD occurs when the die twists as it's releasing, causing extra metal flow. You can envision the planchet twisting against either the hammer or the anvil die. (Here's a question I don't know - can the anvil die be mounted loosely enough to twist on its own?)

    4) I'll let someone else handle DDD vs MD.
  • pcunixpcunix Posts: 620


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>And something else..

    I have one of these: 1871 2C VP-002

    If it were not for that link, I would have thought it to be MD.

    image >>



    I don't want this to get lost: what is it that you see that makes this NOT MD?

    And, was MD less common in the 1800's than it is now - I've seen "Longacre doubling" which I assume is MD, but did this increase as press speeds increased? Would there have been less before 1833 (steam)?

    And could someone explain how MD happens on both sides on one coin? The bottom die bounces because it's loose when the top hits?

    And (so many questions, sorry) how do you discern DDD (die deterioration doubling) from MD? >>



    1) It should be more evident in person. I would expect the doubling on the 2 center to not be low and shelflike like MD. Also, I think you can see a notch on the lower right of the second 1.

    2) Longacre doubling is not MD. James Barton Longacre, chief engraver of the mint, was occasionally fond of reworking the edges of devices on dies with a little extra handcutting. That is what creates Longacre doubling - it will occur the same on every coin struck from the die after Longacre modified it. MD is extremely common and pronounced on shield nickels (1866-1883). I don't know how that relates to press technologies.

    3) MD occurs when the die twists as it's releasing, causing extra metal flow. You can envision the planchet twisting against either the hammer or the anvil die. (Here's a question I don't know - can the anvil die be mounted loosely enough to twist on its own?)

    4) I'll let someone else handle DDD vs MD. >>



    Thanks. I don't see it on the two cent coin photos, but next time I go to the SDB I will pull it and put it under the microscope again. Looks flat and shelflike to me, but I'll look harder.

    Ok, how about "Has MD increased with press speed?" I would guess yes?
  • lostincoinslostincoins Posts: 4,299
    The 1871 pictured is true doubled die. The 2nd 1 shows a notch at the lower right and that is a great way to tell. With md the device is not always 100% flat it can bubble up as it were due to metal flow but many times the doubling will go around corners and be around 3/4 of the device. True doubled dies will never do that as they are an imprint of the original device on the working hub that happened during prep and test fitting such a the dies striking each other out of alignment. Machine doubling is actually less pronounced now because of the actual speed as the strike happens so fast it is limiting the contact time that the die has with the planchet.
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,700


    << <i>The 1871 pictured is true doubled die. The 2nd 1 shows a notch at the lower right and that is a great way to tell. With md the device is not always 100% flat it can bubble up as it were due to metal flow but many times the doubling will go around corners and be around 3/4 of the device. True doubled dies will never do that as they are an imprint of the original device on the working hub that happened during prep and test fitting such a the dies striking each other out of alignment. Machine doubling is actually less pronounced now because of the actual speed as the strike happens so fast it is limiting the contact time that the die has with the planchet. >>




    I get you like to help but typically propagating correct information is the foundation of true helpfulness. The 1871 isn't a doubled die. The die it self isn't doubled, a design element was repunched after the hubbing process where the die was created. There are other inaccuracies in your statement as well.
  • pcunixpcunix Posts: 620


    << <i>

    << <i>The 1871 pictured is true doubled die. The 2nd 1 shows a notch at the lower right and that is a great way to tell. With md the device is not always 100% flat it can bubble up as it were due to metal flow but many times the doubling will go around corners and be around 3/4 of the device. True doubled dies will never do that as they are an imprint of the original device on the working hub that happened during prep and test fitting such a the dies striking each other out of alignment. Machine doubling is actually less pronounced now because of the actual speed as the strike happens so fast it is limiting the contact time that the die has with the planchet. >>




    I get you like to help but typically propagating correct information is the foundation of true helpfulness. The 1871 isn't a doubled die. The die it self isn't doubled, a design element was repunched after the hubbing process where the die was created. There are other inaccuracies in your statement as well. >>



    Ok, correct: repunched date. But it still looks line MD to me. Very confusing stuff.
  • howardshowards Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭
    If you go look at the photo of the 1871 2 center at the NGCCoin link posted above, the notch at the lower right of the second 1 is very evident. If this coin were machine doubled, that notch would be filled in.

    Yes, it is an RPD, not a DDO. Dates were punched into dies after they were hubbed at this time.
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 16,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No premium on the dime. Just another unimportant manufacturing defect.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • lostincoinslostincoins Posts: 4,299
    So as I do not make mistakes in wording or information as crytpo has pointed out just go here and you will learn a lot more than has been posted so far and it has nifty pictures also.

    Text
  • pcunixpcunix Posts: 620


    << <i>If you go look at the photo of the 1871 2 center at the NGCCoin link posted above, the notch at the lower right of the second 1 is very evident. If this coin were machine doubled, that notch would be filled in.
    >>



    You may think it is very evident, but I don't see it.

    I'm sure that's my defect, not yours, but I have no idea what you are seeing.
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭
    Extreme examples of machine doubling far more severe than the examples posted here are worth a decent premium, as much as $100 in the case of Sacagawea dollars and Kennedy halves. We're talking about a significant offset and major portions of the design affected. See this link for some dramatic examples:

    http://error-ref.com/machine-doubling-.html
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • lostincoinslostincoins Posts: 4,299
    OK if this were a doubled die you would get an effect that looks something like that area in the pic that the arrow is pointing at, but not all doubled dies will look this separated. I will up load my 1995 in a little bit and maybe crypto could take the photo and point out the doubled die devices with a better explanation.


    image
  • pcunixpcunix Posts: 620


    << <i>OK if this were a doubled die you would get an effect that looks something like that area in the pic that the arrow is pointing at, but not all doubled dies will look this separated. I will up load my 1995 in a little bit and maybe crypto could take the photo and point out the doubled die devices with a better explanation. >>



    So are you saying that MD would extend all the way to the right hand end of the bottom of the 1?

    If so, why would it have to?

  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 9,808 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i><< Not to me. However, some collectors do pay up for these but I'm not sure why. >>

    Because they are ignorant to the difference between them and doubled dies. They don't grasp that one is a quality issue that happens during production and the other is a consistent abnormality in the die its self. >>



    Like I posted earlier:
    I wouldn't pay a premium for most strike doubling, but I have paid premiums for some of the dramatic double profile
    middle date large cents, for the coolness factor.


    So color me ignorant - though I knew darn well what I was buying, and there was no deception on the part of the dealer - whatever happened to "buy what you like"? >>



    I meant no offence to you or any one else by my comment. I also own some strike doubled coins and I think some are very cool, some spectacular such as some profile doubled Capped Bust half dollars. But I wouldn't pay a premium for em. I save that money for toned Buffs that I'm attracted to and over pay for them. I also buy what "I" like and everyone should do the same. And, I never bust out my color crayons and color anybody anything. I'm sorry if I offended you.
    The bitterness of "poor quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 16,562 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Extreme examples of machine doubling far more severe than the examples posted here are worth a decent premium, as much as $100 in the case of Sacagawea dollars and Kennedy halves. We're talking about a significant offset and major portions of the design affected. See this link for some dramatic examples:

    http://error-ref.com/machine-doubling-.html >>



    Good to know. The photos on that link are cool. image

    As with anything, it comes down to supply and demand. In general, MD is more common and there's also less demand. which can lead to fun collecting.
  • howardshowards Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    So are you saying that MD would extend all the way to the right hand end of the bottom of the 1?

    If so, why would it have to? >>



    Yes. Think of machine doubling as a drawer sliding out from the device of the coin. The drawer must be full-width, because the slide is the same along the entire edge of the device. The notch shows us that this is not machine doubling, but (in the case of a 2-center) an RPD.

    Referring back to the photos of the original Merc in this discussion, the doubling extends the entire length of the 1 with no notching.

    No notching is not a guarantee of machine doubling, but notching is a guarantee of either a DDO or an RPD (depending on the series).
  • pcunixpcunix Posts: 620


    << <i>

    << <i>

    So are you saying that MD would extend all the way to the right hand end of the bottom of the 1?

    If so, why would it have to? >>



    Yes. Think of machine doubling as a drawer sliding out from the device of the coin. The drawer must be full-width, because the slide is the same along the entire edge of the device. The notch shows us that this is not machine doubling, but (in the case of a 2-center) an RPD.

    Referring back to the photos of the original Merc in this discussion, the doubling extends the entire length of the 1 with no notching.

    No notching is not a guarantee of machine doubling, but notching is a guarantee of either a DDO or an RPD (depending on the series). >>



    THAT is extremely helpful, thank you!
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