A Few Unopened Grey Whales To Share (1970 Cellos and a Well-known 1970 Rack)

70ToppsFanatic

Just a couple of special 1970 graded cellos and a 1970 Rack that I was very fortunate to acquire:

grote15

Sweet pickups, Dave! Judging by the cert #s, I'm assuming the cellos are from Fritsch?

Amazing rack, too! 5th/6th series?

slum22

Incredible pick ups. Those are some beautiful packs. I know someone who would appreciate that Seaver on top pack!

jmoran19

Awesome!!!!!

Rack should be 6/7 based on rose and bench showing

jmaciu

All of those packs are awesome, especially the rack with Bench and Rose!! Congrats.

scotgreb

Awesome cellos . . . I thought I would add this one to the mix.

I suppose a "grey whale" for me too as Al was one of my favorite childhood players.

54topps

That's one of the coolest racks I've ever seen. Thanks for posting.

edmundfitzgerald

Awesome stuff.

yankeeno7

Beautiful stuff.

There is only one concern I have. Didnt I hear it was not possible to have a Munson on the top of a pack? Is that possibly a Jose creation?

grote15

<< <i>Beautiful stuff.

There is only one concern I have. Didnt I hear it was not possible to have a Munson on the top of a pack? Is that possibly a Jose creation? >>



No, in 1970, the set was issued in series, and a series 2 pack like this one can feature any card from that series on top or bottom. These particular cellos are also all from Fritsch so provenance is iron-clad.

mknez

Great Stuff Dave!

70ToppsFanatic

<< <i>

<< <i>Beautiful stuff.

There is only one concern I have. Didnt I hear it was not possible to have a Munson on the top of a pack? Is that possibly a Jose creation? >>



No, in 1970, the set was issued in series, and a series 2 pack like this one can feature any card from that series on top or bottom. These particular cellos are also all from Fritsch so provenance is iron-clad. >>



I can say with certainty that these are Fritsch packs, and that they are 100% good. Further, I have studied the 1970 cello collation sequences and can tell you that just about any card can appear on the top or bottom of a 1970 cello pack (for at least the first 6 series I know it for sure, as I have pictures of the uncut sheets from those series, and I have figured out the collation pattern form opening a bunch of these cellos over the years). It's porbably true for all series, but I have never opened a 7th series cello so I cant say for 100% sure on the last series.

It's too bad I opened so many of these, as there was probably a time when one could have put together a full set of 726 cello packs with each different card being on the top of a pack. Sadly, I doubt that could be done any more.... ;(

Oh well. At least these were spared.

beydoun

This is the problem I have with the rack: it's my understanding that the die cross-cut wasn't put into production until the summer of 1971 when the 4th series baseball racks were released. I see earlier racks with it but have always stayed away, assuming they weren't legit. Prior to the use of the cross-cut punch hole, Topps used a circular die-cut from the fall of 1968 to the summer of 1971. The 1970 racks also used the heat roller seals and should look like thin tire tracks - if you look closely, the lines in between the packs are 3 lines of very tiny dots. All of the bogus racks I've seen use the thin-line heat press which leave a solid straight line. This is the biggest problem I have with the 1971 racks that have the card instead of the header card. They all use a heat press that wasn't used until about 1973.

jmoran19

Will confirm that for 1970 series 2 cellos the top 11 cards flip between the 2 sheets in a secret sequence, middle 11 come from the right half only and the bottom 11 come from the left half only

grote15

Beydoun's point about the seams between sections in pre-1974 racks is correct. All racks from 1973 and earlier should feature a "double wide" seam between sections, which was phased out in 1974 when Topps reduced the card count from 54 to 42.

Edit to add: This is the circular punch hole Beydoun is referring to:

psychump

<< <i>Awesome cellos . . . I thought I would add this one to the mix.

I suppose a "grey whale" for me too as Al was one of my favorite childhood players.

LOVE the Al Oliver! One of my favorites too! Really cool when he played for the Giants (my favorite team) when I was growing up. I remember him never hitting a homer for them. in fact the Giants picked up some of my favorite players in those years, Joe Morgan,Reggie Smith, Al and Vida Blue!

jmoran19

<< <i>. This is the biggest problem I have with the 1971 racks that have the card instead of the header card. They all use a heat press that wasn't used until about 1973. >>



Not true. I have personally opened a 1971 1st series rak that had a card as the header and each section moved as expected, one section had 18 cards in order from the left half, one section had 18 cards in sequence from the right half and the 3rd section flipped between the 2 halfs. If I remember correctly this section also had 19 cards not 18.

Included in the rak was 2 Pete Rose's that graded PSA 8 and PSA 9 OC

John

grote15

My opinion on 1971 racks with player header cards is that they may be authentic packs but were not packaged by Topps to be sold in stores, which would explain why there are no product codes or any Topps logo or price marks on the rack itself. I have also never seen a 71 rack with a player header card with a price tag on it. These racks are also far more plentiful than 71 racks with the typical Topps header card, and I have never encountered anyone who actually remembers them being sold like that in stores. I would love to know the real story behind the 71 player card racks.

yankeeno7

Cool...good going on the packs then! Awesome stuff.

70ToppsFanatic

<< <i>This is the problem I have with the rack: it's my understanding that the die cross-cut wasn't put into production until the summer of 1971 when the 4th series baseball racks were released. I see earlier racks with it but have always stayed away, assuming they weren't legit. Prior to the use of the cross-cut punch hole, Topps used a circular die-cut from the fall of 1968 to the summer of 1971. The 1970 racks also used the heat roller seals and should look like thin tire tracks - if you look closely, the lines in between the packs are 3 lines of very tiny dots. All of the bogus racks I've seen use the thin-line heat press which leave a solid straight line. This is the biggest problem I have with the 1971 racks that have the card instead of the header card. They all use a heat press that wasn't used until about 1973. >>



Back in that era it was not uncommon for Topps to do "trial" runs with new packaging designs and technologies. Normally it was done late in the production run, so the fact that this is a late series pack is consistent with that theory.

The source of the rack was BBCE so I have pretty strong faith in it being legitimate. However, it would be worth sharing the points your raised with Steve to see what he has to say. I will send him a note and see if he will add a comment in this thread.

beydoun

The 1971 racks with a player's card in the header position didn't appear until the early 2000's - check out the Mastro catalogs of the period. It was around '03 or '04 when they started popping out in quantity. I can tell you I never saw them in 1971 in any retail store and there was no mention of them in any of the trade publications of that time. They were simply non-existent in the hobby prior to about 2000. Something like that would of made waves in the hobby comparable to the 1972/73 football miss-wrapped packs. It would of been noticed by collectors and no way would it of required 30 years for us to realize they existed. It also troubles me that they appear shortly before the "Christmas racks" scam got cranked up. When you add to this that these racks use a heat seal that Topps didn't even have until 1973/74, it just doesn't pass the smell test. If someone wanted to sell you a 1971 wax pack with a 1974 wax wrapper you would be suspicious to say the least. I would add one more thing on these racks: about the same time these racks appeared, a quantity of 500 count vendor boxes came into the hobby from Fritsch's inventory - including 1971's. If someone had produced these racks using those cards, not only would the cards be high grade but in the proper sequence as well.

mojorob

I know absolutely nothing of legit sequencing or heat seal patterns ....... I just know that that Rack with the Rose & Bench is a thing of Beauty.
Gosh ..... How Sweet Is That!!!!
Just A Fantastic Piece Dave.

jmoran19

<< <i>The 1971 racks with a player's card in the header position didn't appear until the early 2000's - check out the Mastro catalogs of the period. It was around '03 or '04 when they started popping out in quantity. I can tell you I never saw them in 1971 in any retail store and there was no mention of them in any of the trade publications of that time. They were simply non-existent in the hobby prior to about 2000. Something like that would of made waves in the hobby comparable to the 1972/73 football miss-wrapped packs. It would of been noticed by collectors and no way would it of required 30 years for us to realize they existed. It also troubles me that they appear shortly before the "Christmas racks" scam got cranked up. When you add to this that these racks use a heat seal that Topps didn't even have until 1973/74, it just doesn't pass the smell test. If someone wanted to sell you a 1971 wax pack with a 1974 wax wrapper you would be suspicious to say the least. I would add one more thing on these racks: about the same time these racks appeared, a quantity of 500 count vendor boxes came into the hobby from Fritsch's inventory - including 1971's. If someone had produced these racks using those cards, not only would the cards be high grade but in the proper sequence as well. >>



Sequences from vending boxes do not follow the same sequences for early 70's raks, cello and wax packs. They each had there own unique format. I'm 99.9% sure resealers would not include NMMT key cards In the middle of a section to make them appear legit or go to the trouble and expense of buying legit vending boxes and sorting the cards into the correct 18 card sequence including when the sequence moves off the sheet TWICE as these raks where selling for around $400 in the early 2000's.

I'm not saying the ones with the heat seal are legit what I'm trying to tell you is there are definetly legit 1971 raks with a player card as the header.

John

grote15

I think the issue here, too, with regard to 71 racks with player header cards is that they are very appealing to resealers to fabricate, as you don't have to worry about acquiring actual 1971 header cards, which are obviously not that easy to find. In that sense, I am sure many of those you see are not authentic.

beydoun

Prior to 2004, I'm not aware of any major auction house (Mastro, Lelands, Lifson, Manning) recording a sale of a 1971 rack pack with a players card in the header position. There were plenty of '71 racks sold in that time, they just all had the standard header. That defies logic given the abundance of these racks that followed. One April, 2007 Mastro auction had 9 of these racks. All were part of a collection that included other dubious examples including 1970 racks with the wrong header card, all with major stars showing - of course. It makes me wonder where all these racks were hiding in the '70's, '80's and '90's and how, in a hobby where we research this stuff with religious zeal, we all completely missed them.

TheDudeAbides

Nice items Dave! Thanks for sharing.

As for the 71 racks with cards as headers. There have to be some legit packs out there. I opened a 1st. series rack that resulted in a PSA 9 Baltimore Team card #1, plus one that graded an 8. I had a fair number grade 8 from that rack, with many O/C cards that were mint. I noticed 1971 racks with card headers on Ebay around late 2000 or early 2001, they were selling for a little over $300 if memory serves, got them from a seller on the East coast. I purchased 3 or 4, opened one, and sold the remainder a few years later. One of my buyers reported getting a really nice Reggie Jackson that he thought could 9, plus some other very gradeable cards. The Jackson got an 8 I believe, but it was from the same source.

I purchased a Fritsch vendor box back in the day, and promptly returned it. The cards were awful. Unlike the cards I pulled from that first series card header rack. Can't say all card header racks are legit, but my experience was a good one.

The Dude

jmoran19

Thanks for the post "the Dude", Your story matches my data. here is an auction from April 1999 - mile high. Armand, just because you've never heard of them doesn't make them automatically no good. There are many other factors to look at, like the seams as you correctly noted, sequence count from top to bottom card etc.

beydoun

That would put it 4 years earlier and in my approximate time period of 2000. Unfortunately that still leaves nearly 3 decades unaccounted for. Is there any evidence of these appearing before? As you can tell, I'm completely down on this type of rack. It makes no sense, the entire purpose of the rack is economy of scale and removing any indication of value (54 cards for 39 cents as listed on the header) defeats its very purpose. Has anyone ever even seen one of these racks with a price tag?

cincyredlegs

Great post Dave. As usual, you make me slobber every time I see your Rose/Bench rack. Someday it will be in my collection or it's cousin below will be in yours.




Mark

1all

<< <i>Beautiful stuff.

There is only one concern I have. Didnt I hear it was not possible to have a Munson on the top of a pack? Is that possibly a Jose creation? >>


No, what you are probably thinking of is the 1975 cello which shouldn't have Munson on top since his card is from a single * sheet. Like Tim and others have said, the 1970 Munson is from Fritsch - it's good. Those are some *awesome* pickups. Contrats!

Nikklos

Come on let's start ripping these packs! God, I love 1970!

1all

Weren't 1971 rack packs one of the products of choice for the "Barry Brothers" who were resealing out of the Carolinas? Before being educated, I won one of their auctions (a 1977 tray pack). The seller e-mailed later letting me know that he had a bunch of 1971 rack packs for sale and asked me if I was interested.

-Doug

jmoran19

<< <i>

<< <i>Beautiful stuff.

There is only one concern I have. Didnt I hear it was not possible to have a Munson on the top of a pack? Is that possibly a Jose creation? >>


No, what you are probably thinking of is the 1975 cello which shouldn't have Munson on top since his card is from a single * sheet. Like Tim and others have said, the 1970 Munson is from Fritsch - it's good. Those are some *awesome* pickups. Contrats! >>



IN theory Munson or Killebrew or McCovey can appear on both the top and bottom of a 1970 series 2 cello. Reggie J, Brooks R, Billy W, Fergie J and Stve Carlton can not

belz

wow Dave...what great packs...That 70 Munson pack is amazing!!!!!! I must be crazy but I'd take that well centered Munson Rookie cello pack over the rack..although the rack is out of control as well!!! Nice work and thanks for sharing...almost missed this thread.

BaltimoreYankee

I'm with belz about taking the Munson pack over the rack pack although I've become highly jaded about packs during the past year as I've been burned by raw as well as PSA graded packs. The problem that I see now with PSA graded packs is if it's a bad pack that can theoretically be real (ie. not like a 1975 pack with a one asterisk card on bottom or whatever) it can stay undetected forever.