<< <i>The best offers I send are primarily in two categories, sports collectibles and Coin collectibles. I find it interesting that the coin guys are almost always kind and thank me for my offer. On the other hand, it is not uncommon to get a rude remark when sending similar offers to the baseball card sellers. >>
I sell and buy using the BO/BIN feature.
I often sell and buy at up to 50% of the listed price. If it is an item I have multiples of or an item I want to move quickly, because it doesn't fit my collecting focus, I am more agreeable to a lower price. I think other sellers may have the same point of view. I will often put in a best offer with a note stating, I want the item but due to condition, recent comp. selling prices, this is my buy price. More times than not I get a counter or it gets accepted.
I buy mostly sports collectibles, coins and rock and roll memorabilia.
The rock & roll guys are by far the most agreeable in negotiations (maybe because they're all "MELLOWED OUT" lol), the coin guys will counter back and forth in a professional manner and the sports card/memorabilia guys seem to take offense to any offer that is less than 90% of their starting price. I often get a snide reply. Not sure what this says about the dif. hobbies.
<< <i>when you're looking to buy a car, do you offer $1,200 on the $30,000 list price? >>
This is not a very good analogy.
1. Due to the size of the marketplace (tens or hundreds of thousands of cars) and the professionalism of the sellers (almost all car dealerships are full-time professional sellers), a buyer should not reasonably expect to be able to buy a car for less than 50% of it's national selling average in typical circumstances. As has been said before, the same is not true of cards: the buyer may not know you or how you price your items. Some sellers *commonly* accept offers of 50% of below their listing prices. This is true even for guys that do not list at 200% of VCP. It is *logical* for buyers to behave this way: they are trying to get the best deal they can for their card.
2. When negotiating over a car, I would not make my "best offer" my "first offer". Regardless of where you are buying, start low and build up. That way you have some room for back-and-forth if the seller expects it and you might just get a better deal if your initial lower offer is accepted. Some of the anti-"lowball" sentiment here continues to presume that a buyer's first offer is their highest possible (that there won't be further offers) and that there is an intrinsic connection between a first offer amount and subsequent offers (the buyer won't come up dramatically from their first offer in subsequent rounds). Neither of these assumptions is true, based on the experience of lots of sellers.
Set the BIN/BO to autodecline anything under 50% of asking price on any reasonable BINs. Anything over that is likely a reasonable place to start negotiations, anything less is probably not serious. I've had offers on lower dollar items that wouldn't even cover the cost of a stamp and eBay/Paypal fees and there's no need to waste time with those people.
The penny off counteroffer, especially since I make reasonable offers based on either % of BIN or current comps, loses my business forever.
I also like to check past sales if a seller does a lot of BIN/BO listings to get an idea of what kind of offers the seller accepts. It's scored me some great deals when I figure out that a 50-60% offer is likely to be accepted by a given seller.
<< <i>when you're looking to buy a car, do you offer $1,200 on the $30,000 list price? >>
This is not a very good analogy.
1. Due to the size of the marketplace (tens or hundreds of thousands of cars) and the professionalism of the sellers (almost all car dealerships are full-time professional sellers), a buyer should not reasonably expect to be able to buy a car for less than 50% of it's national selling average in typical circumstances. As has been said before, the same is not true of cards: the buyer may not know you or how you price your items. Some sellers *commonly* accept offers of 50% of below their listing prices. This is true even for guys that do not list at 200% of VCP. It is *logical* for buyers to behave this way: they are trying to get the best deal they can for their card.
2. When negotiating over a car, I would not make my "best offer" my "first offer". Regardless of where you are buying, start low and build up. That way you have some room for back-and-forth if the seller expects it and you might just get a better deal if your initial lower offer is accepted. Some of the anti-"lowball" sentiment here continues to presume that a buyer's first offer is their highest possible (that there won't be further offers) and that there is an intrinsic connection between a first offer amount and subsequent offers (the buyer won't come up dramatically from their first offer in subsequent rounds). Neither of these assumptions is true, based on the experience of lots of sellers. >>
All you had to say was that you missed the point. We're talking about the stupid, ridiculous offers.
<< <i>We're talking about the stupid, ridiculous offers. >>
I won't repeat myself (again), but low offers aren't stupid or ridiculous. Sure, if someone trolls you by offering 1 cent on an item, ignore it. But if you get an offer for 40% of your listing, even if near VCP to begin, the buyer may know what they are doing and there are plenty of logical reasons that have been spelled out ITT for why it is preferable to do so.
<< <i>We're talking about the stupid, ridiculous offers. >>
I won't repeat myself (again), but low offers aren't stupid or ridiculous. Sure, if someone trolls you by offering 1 cent on an item, ignore it. But if you get an offer for 40% of your listing, even if near VCP to begin, the buyer may know what they are doing and there are plenty of logical reasons that have been spelled out ITT for why it is preferable to do so. >>
The originial post mentioned an offer that was 20% of the BIN price. That is stupid and ridiculous. I wasn't aware that you had changed the topic to 40%.
My profit margin is different for almost every item I sell. For example, some I price at break-even or loss, such as in a case where the grade came back a couple grades lower than expected. For some items where I pop a grade a few higher than expected, I've got a lot of room to work with price-wise compared with the total costs I have into it. If my percent profit is good, I'm more willing to negotiate on the price relative to market value.
Lets say I picked up a raw card for a dollar, had it graded it and it came back worth $200 with the slab. After raw purchase, grading fees, ebay fees, paypal fees, and other shipping and insurance I have into it, I might still list the hypothetical item at $200 if that is going rate, but would still be doing great with a negotiated sale at $150. If I had $150 into that same item including all the fees and such, than I might be more inclined to sell at $200 and just wait for a buyer at that price. Point being, the potential buyer doesn't know what my initial costs were, so it never hurts to sub a _reasonable_ offer. Anytime I list something with a best-offer option, I always set my auto decline and my auto accept. If I didn't want to receive offers, I wouldn't list it with the option to submit them. However, if I was only going to accept an offer a couple dollars away from the BIN price, then it makes no sense to have the offer option there in there first place and may as well just set the BIN that amount lower. As long as the offer is somewhere between the auto decline and auto accept, I will always either submit a counter-offer or accept it (but not decline w/o response), because that is the reason that middle gap is there.
<< <i>I used to use the BIN option on quite a few listings but recently have started to ask myself "What would I accept as an offer" prior to listing then just listing it at that price without the BIN feature and it's helped sales rather dramatically. >>
For most items, I agree this is a good way to go. However, it often takes a best-offer scenario to help w/ market research when selling a more unique or 1/1 item, for which there is no pricing info or sales records available.
<< <i><< when you're looking to buy a car, do you offer $1,200 on the $30,000 list price? >>
This is not a very good analogy. >>
Not to mention that everyone knows cars cost much more than $1200 to make. With cards, if you were an original owner and bought the product when it was issued, you could very well have just a few bucks into something as valuable as a few thousand dollars.
But with the low ball offers, if you can't ignore it and you counter with $.01 less than the BIN... then why did you choose the Best Offer option to begin with? Just counter offer with something higher than you're willing to accept or ignore it. I think lowballers are just part of the game... same as sellers listing stuff way above market value. Sellers are fishing for a fool to buy it at that price, buyers are fishing for a fool to accept their offer. If you don't want to play, then don't counter.
<< <i>I wasn't aware that you had changed the topic to 40%. >>
I think James is squared away with his preferred strategy.
I am posting because this is pretty relevant for a lot of aspects of eBay strategy. I buy and sell a lot, so if my thinking is wrong, I'd like to know that. Putting it out there to see if differing opinions will sway mine. More about the meta than the specific example at hand.
Not to mention that everyone knows cars cost much more than $1200 to make. >>
Good grief, talk about taking it out of context. I guess you missed the part about using that to get negotiations started, which was a jab at the person who previously made that comment.
Although some may not agree with what others have had to say I think this has been a good discussion so far. I really do appreciate what everyone has had to say. It has given me and hopefully others something to think about. As I mentioned earlier, I went through and set the auto-decline at under what I will actually be willing to sell the items for so I have room to make counteroffers. Quite a few guys mention VCP and cards in general. These items are not card or sports related. I realize that this is a sportscard based forum but what has been discussed here is relevent to anything that is listed for sale. Thank you, James
I think we are confusing the issue between someone offering $50 for an item that is listed for $100 and someone offering $20 for an item listed for $150 that sells regularly in the $100-$150 range. If I have an item, that generally sells for a certain amount on average, I will usually list it at the highest amount it has sold for and consider offers below that to the amount that it has sold the least for. If I have an item listed for $100 that has sold in the $60-$100 range and someone offers me $20 for it, I dont consider that a negotiation starter....I mean, if my ultimate goal is $80 on average, what exactly do I counter with? $95?? If so, guess what the usual response is from the buyer...either nothing or another snide remark. It has been mentioned that card sellers are sometimes obnoxious....well, the same can be said of card BUYERS. I only put Best offers on stuff I have extras of or just want to get the least fair offer for. Everything else I have started to do away with best offers because 2 out of every three is ridiculous and usually from low feedback people
<< <i>First, maybe you (not talking about the OP or anyone specific) are one of those sellers on ebay who asks WAAYYY too much for an item.
Second, maybe the person making the offer feels their offer is reasonable market
Third, I agree with those saying take the high road. What you may find funny, others may not and then you lose a potential customer.
Fourth, maybe need learn some new people skills >>
Some truth to points 1 and 2 here. With modern cards, their market value can move drastically in either direction and I've had it where I've listed a new card for $100 (when card is selling for around 75-85) or BIN and a year later, when I've forgot I even have the card listed I get an offer for $20 and realize yeah that sound about right now.
Not to mention that everyone knows cars cost much more than $1200 to make. >>
Good grief, talk about taking it out of context. I guess you missed the part about using that to get negotiations started, which was a jab at the person who previously made that comment.
Use the whole quote, or don't refer to it. >>
No, didn't miss that part... I just didn't think it warranted a response. I was actually quoting charrigan's post that referred to yours, just giving him yet another reason your analogy stinks.
<< <i>I think we are confusing the issue between someone offering $50 for an item that is listed for $100 and someone offering $20 for an item listed for $150 that sells regularly in the $100-$150 range. If I have an item, that generally sells for a certain amount on average, I will usually list it at the highest amount it has sold for and consider offers below that to the amount that it has sold the least for. If I have an item listed for $100 that has sold in the $60-$100 range and someone offers me $20 for it, I dont consider that a negotiation starter....I mean, if my ultimate goal is $80 on average, what exactly do I counter with? $95?? If so, guess what the usual response is from the buyer...either nothing or another snide remark. It has been mentioned that card sellers are sometimes obnoxious....well, the same can be said of card BUYERS. I only put Best offers on stuff I have extras of or just want to get the least fair offer for. Everything else I have started to do away with best offers because 2 out of every three is ridiculous and usually from low feedback people >>
Valid perspective, but I can't think of a reason why in the scenario you describe you would not have an auto-decline set up at some price (probably somewhere between $50 & $60?) so that you never even see the $20 offer?
<< <i>Valid perspective, but I can't think of a reason why in the scenario you describe you would not have an auto-decline set up at some price (probably somewhere between $50 & $60?) so that you never even see the $20 offer? >>
+1. If you're going to be offended, why put yourself through it? Sounds like a win, win to me... the lowballer knows you won't accept their ridiculous offer and you save yourself some distress. Don't worry, be happy.
<< <i>Valid perspective, but I can't think of a reason why in the scenario you describe you would not have an auto-decline set up at some price (probably somewhere between $50 & $60?) so that you never even see the $20 offer? >>
+1. If you're going to be offended, why put yourself through it? Sounds like a win, win to me... the lowballer knows you won't accept their ridiculous offer and you save yourself some distress. Don't worry, be happy. >>
What, and miss the opportunity to send a snide reply!!?? Surely, you jest, LOL..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>If I have an item listed for $100 that has sold in the $60-$100 range and someone offers me $20 for it, I dont consider that a negotiation starter....I mean, if my ultimate goal is $80 on average, what exactly do I counter with? $95?? >>
I might counter with $90. That's still above your seller baseline of $80, shows that you are being flexible, and doesn't alienate the buyer. You might also decline and send a message to the buyer that says: "I am happy to negotiate, but you'll have to come up a bit first". Often, you're right, the buyer won't make a 2nd offer. But, sometimes (in my experience) they will, and that is money in your pocket that you wouldn't otherwise have.
<< <i>methinks some of you be woundeth a little tight on this discussion. I took the liberty of consulting The Google for some cat videos. You're welcome.
speaking of cats, after the death of my 15 year old at the beginning of the monh, I got a new kitten for my 3 year old. Instant life buddies- Lucked out again
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Still new to the boards and hope I'm following protocol by jumping into this conversation. It's pretty interesting how different sellers do business on ebay.
In my opinion someone has to be interested before being a buyer. With a buy it now or best offer people are going to try and get a good deal. If I have a card up there for $100 and someone offers me $20 at least I know they're interested. If the market value of the card is $75 it's my job to get the buyer to that price. I can't assume the person won't move up. Why not counter with a price and use the population report to show them the value? " I can come down to $80 but right now there is only 8 of these at a PSA 10 and 40 people building the master set so I believe the price to be $80-$100 range instead of $20-$30." It may seem ridiculous but you never know. Even if it helps get 1 more sale out of 10 it seems worth it.
" I'm supposed to be the franchise player, and we in here talking about practice. I mean, listen, we're talking about practice "
Be it cards, coins, stamps, whatever....there are always going to be mooches who want high quality items but don't want to pay for them, and/or think that buying two of something is a wholesale purchase, and/or legitimately think that making an offer of less than half your asking price is "haggling" or "negotiating". Use the auto-decline feature to reject all offers below what you are willing to actually accept, and these folks will no longer cause you grief (at least insofar as eBay is concerned).
And to those who can't understand why someone would be insulted by a lowball offer...I'm willing to bet you a) like to make lowball offers and b)obviously aren't doing this as a business. The seller's time, overhead and investment all have value and when someone is wasting time trying to get something for nothing (or next to nothing), many sellers rightfully take umbrage. Most sellers don't have time to play games and using myself as an example, don't care for a lot of back and forth. I normally have marked prices within 10-20% of my bottom buck, with some exceptions. I normally quote my best number right off; pass or play, it's all the same to me but I'm not interested in haggling like it's a fish market in Chinatown.
Bottom Line-offering $20 for a $30 item can be viewed as an attempt at a negotiation; offering $20 for a $150 item is a flat out insult to the person on the other side of the table, and shows you either aren't serious about the item or are simply looking for rips... and are a waste of time either way.
<< <i>I always set a minimum auto-reject so I never see anyone's low-ball offers. Low-ball offers never bother me... life is too short for that. >>
+1
What some people fail to comprehend, too, is that while some sellers will list a reasonable BIN price with a BO offer option, others will list a grossly inflated BIN price hoping to get an offer even at one half of the asking price. If an item with a market value price of $250 is listed with a BIN at $899, is offering $200 considered a lowball offer?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>How do you guys handle bidders that submit ridiculously low offers on items? A few days ago someone offered me $50 on an item I have listed for $240. I declined but put a message telling them to not inslut me by submitting such a lowball offer. Just a few minutes ago I got an offer of $110 on another item that is listed for $225. I sent a counteroffer of $224.99. I tried to counter with $300 but Ebay won't let you do that. I don't mind offers for 10-20% of the asking price but 50-80% is an insult. James >>
<< <i>I always set a minimum auto-reject so I never see anyone's low-ball offers. Low-ball offers never bother me... life is too short for that. >>
+1
What some people fail to comprehend, too, is that while some sellers will list a reasonable BIN price with a BO offer option, others will list a grossly inflated BIN price hoping to get an offer even at one half of the asking price. If an item with a market value price of $250 is listed with a BIN at $899, is offering $200 considered a lowball offer? >>
I list some things like this as well... I'll list some cards that I don't necessarily WANT to sell, but for the right ridiculous price, I'll sell it. So I list it with an inflated BIN with a set minimum auto-reject price. No harm either way.
<< <i>I always set a minimum auto-reject so I never see anyone's low-ball offers. Low-ball offers never bother me... life is too short for that. >>
+1
What some people fail to comprehend, too, is that while some sellers will list a reasonable BIN price with a BO offer option, others will list a grossly inflated BIN price hoping to get an offer even at one half of the asking price. If an item with a market value price of $250 is listed with a BIN at $899, is offering $200 considered a lowball offer? >>
I list some things like this as well... I'll list some cards that I don't necessarily WANT to sell, but for the right ridiculous price, I'll sell it. So I list it with an inflated BIN with a set minimum auto-reject price. No harm either way. >>
Exactly, but you wouldnt classify an offer far below the BIN price but closer to market value a lowball offer, correct? In short, the BO percentage to the BIN price is relative to how reasonable that BIN price is in the first place.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I always set a minimum auto-reject so I never see anyone's low-ball offers. Low-ball offers never bother me... life is too short for that. >>
+1
What some people fail to comprehend, too, is that while some sellers will list a reasonable BIN price with a BO offer option, others will list a grossly inflated BIN price hoping to get an offer even at one half of the asking price. If an item with a market value price of $250 is listed with a BIN at $899, is offering $200 considered a lowball offer? >>
I list some things like this as well... I'll list some cards that I don't necessarily WANT to sell, but for the right ridiculous price, I'll sell it. So I list it with an inflated BIN with a set minimum auto-reject price. No harm either way. >>
Exactly, but you wouldnt classify an offer far below the BIN price but closer to market value a lowball offer, correct? In short, the BO percentage to the BIN price is relative to how reasonable that BIN price is in the first place. >>
Correct... If I list a $75 card for $150 OBO, and someone offers me $60, I won't be offended.
At some point common sense enters the equation. Ridiculously high BINs that are fishing for a sucker usually get ignored and don't usually field many offers, if any. My remarks above refer to realistically priced items.
Telephoto--you kinda went on a rant without responding to any of the arguments for why it is logical non-moochey buyer behavior to offer 60% of your near-VCP prices. You say it is insulting because it wastes your time as the seller, but you can auto-decline or just ignore offers below your threshold selling price. I am a seller as well, and I would rather have low offers than no offers because, as I mentioned earlier, they occasionally turn into sales. If you are offended by a person who wants to buy your item but doesn't do it the way you want, you probably shouldn't be in business or you should reconsider your model to be more customer-friendly and generally pleasant.
EDIT: If you "don't care for much back-and-forth", why not eliminate BO and just do reasonably-priced BINs? Saves you valuable time! Like it or not, if you list with BO, it definitionally IS haggling. If you don't want to participate in the fish market, that is your choice. There's a listing for that: BIN.
<< <i>Telephoto--you kinda went on a rant without responding to any of the arguments for why it is logical non-moochey buyer behavior to offer 60% of your near-VCP prices. You say it is insulting because it wastes your time as the seller, but you can auto-decline or just ignore offers below your threshold selling price. I am a seller as well, and I would rather have low offers than no offers because, as I mentioned earlier, they occasionally turn into sales. If you are offended by a person who wants to buy your item but doesn't do it the way you want, you probably shouldn't be in business or you should reconsider your model to be more customer-friendly and generally pleasant.
EDIT: If you "don't care for much back-and-forth", why not eliminate BO and just do reasonably-priced BINs? Saves you valuable time! Like it or not, if you list with BO, it definitionally IS haggling. If you don't want to participate in the fish market, that is your choice. There's a listing for that: BIN. >>
Dude seriously. You are defending bottom feeders. I am getting the feeling you must throw out these kinds of offers too.
A few months back I had a 1986 Topps Traded Tiffany PSA 9 Barry Bonds listed. I had it at $199.99 or best offer. They were generally selling in the $145 to $150 range. The only way to get more is to ask. That being said a guy offers me $25. You think this is a buyer? It is a loser who is trying to send the message I am an idiot.
It is not a customer and I for one don't care if my offer back of a penny less hurts his feelings and he never returns. Guess what I sold the card for $145 a few days later. I had a full price offer but the guy wanted me to wait for his tax refund check and I opted not to.
<< <i>It is a loser who is trying to send the message I am an idiot. >>
I am not sure why you see it this way. Who knows what a person who does that is thinking? Maybe that's all the money they have? Maybe they don't know how much it is worth? I don't know. You don't either. And, to impute some motive ("they are telling me my business!! *shakes fist*) says more about you than them. I'd rather counter slightly off my original price but still well above my threshold selling price and be professional about it. But, that's just me. I would rather make the most +EV business decision than get in a pissing contest and tell a buyer to never come back.
I definitely make aggressive offers on many items. I am not offering 15% of VCP, but you can bet that I am looking to get deals by starting low and then coming up through negotiation. I would say that it has worked very well for me and I am generally quite happy with the purchases I have made.
<< <i>Do you make offers to others on EBAY of 5% or 10% of their asking price? >>
Nope. It's a waste of time, because 99% of sellers won't sell for that. And, for items I really want, I would prefer not to waste an offer since eBay limits the number to 3.
But, If I find a BIN/BO from a seller that I have not interacted with, I definitely start at like 60% of the BIN price. Sometimes you are surprised by how willing a seller will go. That's kind of the point: as a buyer, you can't know, so it makes total sense to start low. You can always go up. You can't go down if the seller accepts an offer that is higher than their selling floor. >>
Dpeck, you also already asked me this ... see above ^^
<< <i>Telephoto--you kinda went on a rant without responding to any of the arguments for why it is logical non-moochey buyer behavior to offer 60% of your near-VCP prices. You say it is insulting because it wastes your time as the seller, but you can auto-decline or just ignore offers below your threshold selling price. I am a seller as well, and I would rather have low offers than no offers because, as I mentioned earlier, they occasionally turn into sales. If you are offended by a person who wants to buy your item but doesn't do it the way you want, you probably shouldn't be in business or you should reconsider your model to be more customer-friendly and generally pleasant.
EDIT: If you "don't care for much back-and-forth", why not eliminate BO and just do reasonably-priced BINs? Saves you valuable time! Like it or not, if you list with BO, it definitionally IS haggling. If you don't want to participate in the fish market, that is your choice. There's a listing for that: BIN. >>
First off, frankly I rarely if ever use BO on eBay for the very reasons stated. And I clearly stated that using the auto-reject feature takes lowballers out of the equation. As to the rest of it-Offering 60% of price guide isn't necessarily lowballing depending on the item quality and demand. Too many variables to make a blanket statement that all offers below X% are lowballing.
I was also referring to how we handle non-eBay business in our store and at shows. We are coin/currency dealers but the principles are the same, plus I've been in and out of the sports market on a personal level for years. I've also been considering moving some of my personal sports stuff on ebay... so I've been lurking/occasionally commenting here to get a feel for sentiments about certain aspects of the current market.
As to my business model, it does just fine and has for 30 years, thanks. And I don't consider lowballers to be customers because in my experience they invariably won't buy anything unless it's too cheap. If your business model is to cater to those folks, by all means be my guest, but you won't stay in business long if you have to rely on such "customers" to keep going.
<< <i>It is a loser who is trying to send the message I am an idiot. >>
I am not sure why you see it this way. Who knows what a person who does that is thinking? Maybe that's all the money they have? Maybe they don't know how much it is worth? I don't know. You don't either. And, to impute some motive ("they are telling me my business!! *shakes fist*) says more about you than them. I'd rather counter slightly off my original price but still well above my threshold selling price and be professional about it. But, that's just me. I would rather make the most +EV business decision than get in a pissing contest and tell a buyer to never come back.
I definitely make aggressive offers on many items. I am not offering 15% of VCP, but you can bet that I am looking to get deals by starting low and then coming up through negotiation. I would say that it has worked very well for me and I am generally quite happy with the purchases I have made. >>
You just don't get it.
Sending an offer of in this case 17% of what the card generally sells for is not how you start the process. Period.
<< <i>Do you make offers to others on EBAY of 5% or 10% of their asking price? >>
Nope. It's a waste of time, because 99% of sellers won't sell for that. And, for items I really want, I would prefer not to waste an offer since eBay limits the number to 3.
But, If I find a BIN/BO from a seller that I have not interacted with, I definitely start at like 60% of the BIN price. Sometimes you are surprised by how willing a seller will go. That's kind of the point: as a buyer, you can't know, so it makes total sense to start low. You can always go up. You can't go down if the seller accepts an offer that is higher than their selling floor. >>
Dpeck, you also already asked me this ... see above ^^ >>
Then why are you defending low ballers? They are not customers and if so not the ones you want to be dealing with anyway.
<< <i>Then why are you defending low ballers? They are not customers and if so not the ones you want to be dealing with anyway. >>
I'm not, really. I am saying:
a) No offer is insulting, but some are ineffective. Lowballing just doesn't work, which is why I don't do it. I don't get offended when I receive a low offer because I don't assign a personal meaning to it.
b) There is a logical case for offering an amount that is sometimes *significantly* below VCP. I do that sometimes, for the reasons I have outlined.
I don't know how much we disagree.
I am in this conversation because I do a fair amount of buying and selling on eBay and want to get the strategy part of both "right". So, let me ask:
Dpeck, I respect you from reading what you've written on these boards. You also clearly have done your fair share of eBay transactions. Let's say there is a card for your set that you want (I dunno, a Wrestling All Stars Series A upgrade). It is listed BIN/BO and the price is 120% VCP (assume that there is a VCP for this card--I don't really know anything about wrestling cards or how stable that market is). Could you describe your strategy when making an offer on that card? Do you start with a price below what you would actually be willing to pay, or do you opt for a "this is my best--take it or leave it"-type approach that Telephoto described? Have you thought about why you BO as a buyer in the way you do? If so, why do you choose that strategy?
Honestly wondering. These things matter to all of us as buyers. Clearly this is *some* disagreement among collectors about how to go about it, so we should talk about it.
18 year old buyer - Wants to purchase an expensive card but is a starving student and can't afford the asking price. He offers 20% of the BIN hoping by a miracle the seller accepts Potential successful seller - Replies with a snide remark about how insulting the offer was and not to ever waste his time again.
Fast forward 15 years.
Said buyer graduated law school and now heads a successful practice. He is now a hobby heavyweight and well known in the collecting community as someone who often pays above market prices for quality cards. He's one of the handful of set builders still paying hyper retail prices for cards. Potential successful seller has bumped along on eBay with mostly positive feedback over the 15 year period. The seller is getting close to retirement and would like to unload his high end inventory to set up his nest egg. He contacts the hobby heavyweight and offers to put together a package deal knowing he can maximize his revenue by selling to this buyer. The buyer recalls the sour taste he had from said dealer when he was younger and less successful. He politely declines, possibly costing the dealer thousands of dollars.
Unlikely scenario? Perhaps. But why go out of your way to alienate buyers?
<< <i>Then why are you defending low ballers? They are not customers and if so not the ones you want to be dealing with anyway. >>
I'm not, really. I am saying:
a) No offer is insulting, but some are ineffective. Lowballing just doesn't work, which is why I don't do it. I don't get offended when I receive a low offer because I don't assign a personal meaning to it.
b) There is a logical case for offering an amount that is sometimes *significantly* below VCP. I do that sometimes, for the reasons I have outlined.
I don't know how much we disagree.
I am in this conversation because I do a fair amount of buying and selling on eBay and want to get the strategy part of both "right". So, let me ask:
Dpeck, I respect you from reading what you've written on these boards. You also clearly have done your fair share of eBay transactions. Let's say there is a card for your set that you want (I dunno, a Wrestling All Stars Series A upgrade). It is listed BIN/BO and the price is 120% VCP (assume that there is a VCP for this card--I don't really know anything about wrestling cards or how stable that market is). Could you describe your strategy when making an offer on that card? Do you start with a price below what you would actually be willing to pay, or do you opt for a "this is my best--take it or leave it"-type approach that Telephoto described? Have you thought about why you BO as a buyer in the way you do? If so, why do you choose that strategy?
Honestly wondering. These things matter to all of us as buyers. Clearly this is *some* disagreement among collectors about how to go about it, so we should talk about it. >>
I had a full response typed and hit some button and it went nuts and I am starting over.
Using the sets I collect is really tough to accurately answer your question. In many cases the cards I need get auctioned off, get listed as Buy It Now's with little wiggle room if any and trade on the private market. I have bought quite a few cards direct from dealers and in all cases contacted them looking to see if they had the cards that just hit the pop report. If so I ask what they want for them and if we are in the ballpark I buy them. If it is more then I think is fair I might counter slightly or just say good luck and hopefully you get them sold.
If I am making an offer on a card that is listed I generally come in with my best offer first. I would never make an official offer that is massively below the asking price. If the price appears outrageous and there are prior sales that point in this direction I contact the seller and say I don't want to insult you with a low offer but I am willing to pay X and here are some prior sales for your information. Thanks for your consideration. I completely get the idea of offering a little lower then your best offer first. But taking an offer from $25 to $125 is in almost all cases not going to happen. One of the primary reasons I make a real offer is in case someone else makes one too. Any card that might move quick you need to show you are for real is my belief.
I want to get things at the lowest price I can but I am also realistic with what to expect. There are many items that are more liquid then others and if one wants to try and haggle to save a few bucks that is their prerogative. But don't make a crap offer on a liquid card and think you will be taken seriously. You can't tell me it is good business to offer a guy who has a 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan PSA 9 $250 when he has it listed at $2,200.
It is no secret I ask high prices for cards. I am not motivated to sell them cheap. It does me no good. It devalues what I have and I would rather just keep it. Not everyone is in the same boat. Some want to move product and if so are willing to take lower prices. I am not one of them. I will sometimes run auctions and they generally do well. If you read my feedback the people who have bought from me are always pleased. This will keep the right people coming back is my view.
Ask yourself this question. If you got an offer of $10 on a card that you had listed for $100 and there was a note that said no wrestling card is worth more then this. Would you be concerned about losing this persons business? I know I am not. There are some wild characters who dabble in wrestling cards and I promise you many of the stereo types of wrestling fans are true. Some of my best customers live in trailer parks or very low end houses and use their disability money to buy cards. I will deal with anyone who is respectful and that is why I am adamant that the low ball offers are not and I have little patience for them.
Cards are a hobby for me and I sell occasionally and perhaps if it was a full time gig I would be more concerned about losing a customer but I am not and once again I don't consider low ballers customers anyways.
<< <i>One of the primary reasons I make a real offer is in case someone else makes one too. Any card that might move quick you need to show you are for real is my belief. >>
Dpeck, thanks for taking the time to write that... twice. All of that makes a lot of sense.
I want to comment on one thing you wrote, above.
I completely agree, in certain situations. I would say that I BO differently when a new item that I have wanted but has not been present in the market is first listed. In those situations, it is pretty reasonable to assume that there may be other interested parties, and I don't slowroll the good stuff. I am pretty much entering with a solid "top of my range"-type offer and doing so quickly. I think that completely makes sense. "Starting low" works better when you come across an item where there is less urgency. Say, it has been sitting for a minute and you can take 24 hours and haggle a bit for a better deal.
Comments
<< <i>The best offers I send are primarily in two categories, sports collectibles and Coin collectibles. I find it interesting that the coin guys are almost always kind and thank me for my offer. On the other hand, it is not uncommon to get a rude remark when sending similar offers to the baseball card sellers. >>
I sell and buy using the BO/BIN feature.
I often sell and buy at up to 50% of the listed price. If it is an item I have multiples of or an item I want to move quickly, because
it doesn't fit my collecting focus, I am more agreeable to a lower price. I think other sellers may have the same point of view. I will
often put in a best offer with a note stating, I want the item but due to condition, recent comp. selling prices, this is my buy price. More
times than not I get a counter or it gets accepted.
I buy mostly sports collectibles, coins and rock and roll memorabilia.
The rock & roll guys are by far the most agreeable in negotiations (maybe because they're all "MELLOWED OUT" lol), the coin guys
will counter back and forth in a professional manner and the sports card/memorabilia guys seem to take offense to any offer that is
less than 90% of their starting price. I often get a snide reply. Not sure what this says about the dif. hobbies.
<< <i>when you're looking to buy a car, do you offer $1,200 on the $30,000 list price? >>
This is not a very good analogy.
1. Due to the size of the marketplace (tens or hundreds of thousands of cars) and the professionalism of the sellers (almost all car dealerships are full-time professional sellers), a buyer should not reasonably expect to be able to buy a car for less than 50% of it's national selling average in typical circumstances. As has been said before, the same is not true of cards: the buyer may not know you or how you price your items. Some sellers *commonly* accept offers of 50% of below their listing prices. This is true even for guys that do not list at 200% of VCP. It is *logical* for buyers to behave this way: they are trying to get the best deal they can for their card.
2. When negotiating over a car, I would not make my "best offer" my "first offer". Regardless of where you are buying, start low and build up. That way you have some room for back-and-forth if the seller expects it and you might just get a better deal if your initial lower offer is accepted. Some of the anti-"lowball" sentiment here continues to presume that a buyer's first offer is their highest possible (that there won't be further offers) and that there is an intrinsic connection between a first offer amount and subsequent offers (the buyer won't come up dramatically from their first offer in subsequent rounds). Neither of these assumptions is true, based on the experience of lots of sellers.
The penny off counteroffer, especially since I make reasonable offers based on either % of BIN or current comps, loses my business forever.
I also like to check past sales if a seller does a lot of BIN/BO listings to get an idea of what kind of offers the seller accepts. It's scored me some great deals when I figure out that a 50-60% offer is likely to be accepted by a given seller.
<< <i>
<< <i>when you're looking to buy a car, do you offer $1,200 on the $30,000 list price? >>
This is not a very good analogy.
1. Due to the size of the marketplace (tens or hundreds of thousands of cars) and the professionalism of the sellers (almost all car dealerships are full-time professional sellers), a buyer should not reasonably expect to be able to buy a car for less than 50% of it's national selling average in typical circumstances. As has been said before, the same is not true of cards: the buyer may not know you or how you price your items. Some sellers *commonly* accept offers of 50% of below their listing prices. This is true even for guys that do not list at 200% of VCP. It is *logical* for buyers to behave this way: they are trying to get the best deal they can for their card.
2. When negotiating over a car, I would not make my "best offer" my "first offer". Regardless of where you are buying, start low and build up. That way you have some room for back-and-forth if the seller expects it and you might just get a better deal if your initial lower offer is accepted. Some of the anti-"lowball" sentiment here continues to presume that a buyer's first offer is their highest possible (that there won't be further offers) and that there is an intrinsic connection between a first offer amount and subsequent offers (the buyer won't come up dramatically from their first offer in subsequent rounds). Neither of these assumptions is true, based on the experience of lots of sellers. >>
All you had to say was that you missed the point. We're talking about the stupid, ridiculous offers.
<< <i>We're talking about the stupid, ridiculous offers. >>
I won't repeat myself (again), but low offers aren't stupid or ridiculous. Sure, if someone trolls you by offering 1 cent on an item, ignore it. But if you get an offer for 40% of your listing, even if near VCP to begin, the buyer may know what they are doing and there are plenty of logical reasons that have been spelled out ITT for why it is preferable to do so.
<< <i>
<< <i>We're talking about the stupid, ridiculous offers. >>
I won't repeat myself (again), but low offers aren't stupid or ridiculous. Sure, if someone trolls you by offering 1 cent on an item, ignore it. But if you get an offer for 40% of your listing, even if near VCP to begin, the buyer may know what they are doing and there are plenty of logical reasons that have been spelled out ITT for why it is preferable to do so. >>
The originial post mentioned an offer that was 20% of the BIN price. That is stupid and ridiculous. I wasn't aware that you had changed the topic to 40%.
My profit margin is different for almost every item I sell. For example, some I price at break-even or loss, such as in a case where the grade came back a couple grades lower than expected. For some items where I pop a grade a few higher than expected, I've got a lot of room to work with price-wise compared with the total costs I have into it. If my percent profit is good, I'm more willing to negotiate on the price relative to market value.
Lets say I picked up a raw card for a dollar, had it graded it and it came back worth $200 with the slab. After raw purchase, grading fees, ebay fees, paypal fees, and other shipping and insurance I have into it, I might still list the hypothetical item at $200 if that is going rate, but would still be doing great with a negotiated sale at $150. If I had $150 into that same item including all the fees and such, than I might be more inclined to sell at $200 and just wait for a buyer at that price. Point being, the potential buyer doesn't know what my initial costs were, so it never hurts to sub a _reasonable_ offer. Anytime I list something with a best-offer option, I always set my auto decline and my auto accept. If I didn't want to receive offers, I wouldn't list it with the option to submit them. However, if I was only going to accept an offer a couple dollars away from the BIN price, then it makes no sense to have the offer option there in there first place and may as well just set the BIN that amount lower. As long as the offer is somewhere between the auto decline and auto accept, I will always either submit a counter-offer or accept it (but not decline w/o response), because that is the reason that middle gap is there.
Second, maybe the person making the offer feels their offer is reasonable market
Third, I agree with those saying take the high road. What you may find funny, others may not and then you lose a potential customer.
Fourth, maybe need learn some new people skills
<< <i>I used to use the BIN option on quite a few listings but recently have started to ask myself "What would I accept as an offer" prior to listing then just listing it at that price without the BIN feature and it's helped sales rather dramatically. >>
For most items, I agree this is a good way to go. However, it often takes a best-offer scenario to help w/ market research when selling a more unique or 1/1 item, for which there is no pricing info or sales records available.
<< <i><< when you're looking to buy a car, do you offer $1,200 on the $30,000 list price? >>
This is not a very good analogy. >>
Not to mention that everyone knows cars cost much more than $1200 to make. With cards, if you were an original owner and bought the product when it was issued, you could very well have just a few bucks into something as valuable as a few thousand dollars.
But with the low ball offers, if you can't ignore it and you counter with $.01 less than the BIN... then why did you choose the Best Offer option to begin with? Just counter offer with something higher than you're willing to accept or ignore it. I think lowballers are just part of the game... same as sellers listing stuff way above market value. Sellers are fishing for a fool to buy it at that price, buyers are fishing for a fool to accept their offer. If you don't want to play, then don't counter.
<< <i>I wasn't aware that you had changed the topic to 40%. >>
I think James is squared away with his preferred strategy.
I am posting because this is pretty relevant for a lot of aspects of eBay strategy. I buy and sell a lot, so if my thinking is wrong, I'd like to know that. Putting it out there to see if differing opinions will sway mine. More about the meta than the specific example at hand.
<< <i>
Not to mention that everyone knows cars cost much more than $1200 to make. >>
Good grief, talk about taking it out of context. I guess you missed the part about using that to get negotiations started, which was a jab at the person who previously made that comment.
Use the whole quote, or don't refer to it.
Thank you, James
<< <i>First, maybe you (not talking about the OP or anyone specific) are one of those sellers on ebay who asks WAAYYY too much for an item.
Second, maybe the person making the offer feels their offer is reasonable market
Third, I agree with those saying take the high road. What you may find funny, others may not and then you lose a potential customer.
Fourth, maybe need learn some new people skills >>
Some truth to points 1 and 2 here. With modern cards, their market value can move drastically in either direction and I've had it where I've listed a new card for $100 (when card is selling for around 75-85) or BIN and a year later, when I've forgot I even have the card listed I get an offer for $20 and realize yeah that sound about right now.
<< <i><<
Not to mention that everyone knows cars cost much more than $1200 to make. >>
Good grief, talk about taking it out of context. I guess you missed the part about using that to get negotiations started, which was a jab at the person who previously made that comment.
Use the whole quote, or don't refer to it. >>
No, didn't miss that part... I just didn't think it warranted a response. I was actually quoting charrigan's post that referred to yours, just giving him yet another reason your analogy stinks.
<< <i>I think we are confusing the issue between someone offering $50 for an item that is listed for $100 and someone offering $20 for an item listed for $150 that sells regularly in the $100-$150 range. If I have an item, that generally sells for a certain amount on average, I will usually list it at the highest amount it has sold for and consider offers below that to the amount that it has sold the least for. If I have an item listed for $100 that has sold in the $60-$100 range and someone offers me $20 for it, I dont consider that a negotiation starter....I mean, if my ultimate goal is $80 on average, what exactly do I counter with? $95?? If so, guess what the usual response is from the buyer...either nothing or another snide remark. It has been mentioned that card sellers are sometimes obnoxious....well, the same can be said of card BUYERS. I only put Best offers on stuff I have extras of or just want to get the least fair offer for. Everything else I have started to do away with best offers because 2 out of every three is ridiculous and usually from low feedback people >>
Valid perspective, but I can't think of a reason why in the scenario you describe you would not have an auto-decline set up at some price (probably somewhere between $50 & $60?) so that you never even see the $20 offer?
<< <i>Valid perspective, but I can't think of a reason why in the scenario you describe you would not have an auto-decline set up at some price (probably somewhere between $50 & $60?) so that you never even see the $20 offer? >>
+1. If you're going to be offended, why put yourself through it? Sounds like a win, win to me... the lowballer knows you won't accept their ridiculous offer and you save yourself some distress. Don't worry, be happy.
<< <i>
<< <i>Valid perspective, but I can't think of a reason why in the scenario you describe you would not have an auto-decline set up at some price (probably somewhere between $50 & $60?) so that you never even see the $20 offer? >>
+1. If you're going to be offended, why put yourself through it? Sounds like a win, win to me... the lowballer knows you won't accept their ridiculous offer and you save yourself some distress. Don't worry, be happy. >>
What, and miss the opportunity to send a snide reply!!?? Surely, you jest, LOL..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>If I have an item listed for $100 that has sold in the $60-$100 range and someone offers me $20 for it, I dont consider that a negotiation starter....I mean, if my ultimate goal is $80 on average, what exactly do I counter with? $95?? >>
I might counter with $90. That's still above your seller baseline of $80, shows that you are being flexible, and doesn't alienate the buyer. You might also decline and send a message to the buyer that says: "I am happy to negotiate, but you'll have to come up a bit first". Often, you're right, the buyer won't make a 2nd offer. But, sometimes (in my experience) they will, and that is money in your pocket that you wouldn't otherwise have.
link goes here
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
<< <i>methinks some of you be woundeth a little tight on this discussion. I took the liberty of consulting The Google for some cat videos. You're welcome.
link goes here >>
speaking of cats, after the death of my 15 year old at the beginning of the monh, I got a new kitten for my 3 year old. Instant life buddies- Lucked out again
Caddy and Aero
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>That last pic is awesome, Zep!! LOL! >>
Sharing secrets and planning their attack
<< <i>The cute black one low-balled one of my catnip listings. >>
l
<< <i>The cute black one low-balled one of my catnip listings. >>
did you accept it? I hope so cause he's been spending my money like crazy and any discount he gets will help
<< <i>
<< <i>The cute black one low-balled one of my catnip listings. >>
did you accept it? I hope so cause he's been spending my money like crazy and any discount he gets will help >>
Countered at 1 cent off.
He hissed at me.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The cute black one low-balled one of my catnip listings. >>
did you accept it? I hope so cause he's been spending my money like crazy and any discount he gets will help >>
Countered at 1 cent off.
He hissed at me. >>
You need to learn to be nicer to potential customers.
James
Still new to the boards and hope I'm following
protocol by jumping into this conversation. It's pretty interesting how different
sellers do business on ebay.
In my opinion someone has to be interested before being a buyer.
With a buy it now or best offer people are going to try
and get a good deal. If I have a card up there for $100 and someone
offers me $20 at least I know they're interested. If the market value
of the card is $75 it's my job to get the buyer to that price. I can't
assume the person won't move up. Why not counter with a price and use the population
report to show them the value? " I can come down to $80 but right now there is only
8 of these at a PSA 10 and 40 people building the master set so I believe the price to be
$80-$100 range instead of $20-$30." It may seem ridiculous but you never know. Even if it helps
get 1 more sale out of 10 it seems worth it.
And to those who can't understand why someone would be insulted by a lowball offer...I'm willing to bet you a) like to make lowball offers and b)obviously aren't doing this as a business. The seller's time, overhead and investment all have value and when someone is wasting time trying to get something for nothing (or next to nothing), many sellers rightfully take umbrage. Most sellers don't have time to play games and using myself as an example, don't care for a lot of back and forth. I normally have marked prices within 10-20% of my bottom buck, with some exceptions. I normally quote my best number right off; pass or play, it's all the same to me but I'm not interested in haggling like it's a fish market in Chinatown.
Bottom Line-offering $20 for a $30 item can be viewed as an attempt at a negotiation; offering $20 for a $150 item is a flat out insult to the person on the other side of the table, and shows you either aren't serious about the item or are simply looking for rips... and are a waste of time either way.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I always set a minimum auto-reject so I never see anyone's low-ball offers. Low-ball offers never bother me... life is too short for that. >>
+1
What some people fail to comprehend, too, is that while some sellers will list a reasonable BIN price with a BO offer option, others will list a grossly inflated BIN price hoping to get an offer even at one half of the asking price. If an item with a market value price of $250 is listed with a BIN at $899, is offering $200 considered a lowball offer?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>How do you guys handle bidders that submit ridiculously low offers on items? A few days ago someone offered me $50 on an item I have listed for $240. I declined but put a message telling them to not inslut me by submitting such a lowball offer. Just a few minutes ago I got an offer of $110 on another item that is listed for $225. I sent a counteroffer of $224.99. I tried to counter with $300 but Ebay won't let you do that.
James >>
y r so right
<< <i>
<< <i>I always set a minimum auto-reject so I never see anyone's low-ball offers. Low-ball offers never bother me... life is too short for that. >>
+1
What some people fail to comprehend, too, is that while some sellers will list a reasonable BIN price with a BO offer option, others will list a grossly inflated BIN price hoping to get an offer even at one half of the asking price. If an item with a market value price of $250 is listed with a BIN at $899, is offering $200 considered a lowball offer? >>
I list some things like this as well... I'll list some cards that I don't necessarily WANT to sell, but for the right ridiculous price, I'll sell it. So I list it with an inflated BIN with a set minimum auto-reject price. No harm either way.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I always set a minimum auto-reject so I never see anyone's low-ball offers. Low-ball offers never bother me... life is too short for that. >>
+1
What some people fail to comprehend, too, is that while some sellers will list a reasonable BIN price with a BO offer option, others will list a grossly inflated BIN price hoping to get an offer even at one half of the asking price. If an item with a market value price of $250 is listed with a BIN at $899, is offering $200 considered a lowball offer? >>
I list some things like this as well... I'll list some cards that I don't necessarily WANT to sell, but for the right ridiculous price, I'll sell it. So I list it with an inflated BIN with a set minimum auto-reject price. No harm either way. >>
Exactly, but you wouldnt classify an offer far below the BIN price but closer to market value a lowball offer, correct? In short, the BO percentage to the BIN price is relative to how reasonable that BIN price is in the first place.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I always set a minimum auto-reject so I never see anyone's low-ball offers. Low-ball offers never bother me... life is too short for that. >>
+1
What some people fail to comprehend, too, is that while some sellers will list a reasonable BIN price with a BO offer option, others will list a grossly inflated BIN price hoping to get an offer even at one half of the asking price. If an item with a market value price of $250 is listed with a BIN at $899, is offering $200 considered a lowball offer? >>
I list some things like this as well... I'll list some cards that I don't necessarily WANT to sell, but for the right ridiculous price, I'll sell it. So I list it with an inflated BIN with a set minimum auto-reject price. No harm either way. >>
Exactly, but you wouldnt classify an offer far below the BIN price but closer to market value a lowball offer, correct? In short, the BO percentage to the BIN price is relative to how reasonable that BIN price is in the first place. >>
Correct... If I list a $75 card for $150 OBO, and someone offers me $60, I won't be offended.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
EDIT: If you "don't care for much back-and-forth", why not eliminate BO and just do reasonably-priced BINs? Saves you valuable time! Like it or not, if you list with BO, it definitionally IS haggling. If you don't want to participate in the fish market, that is your choice. There's a listing for that: BIN.
<< <i>Telephoto--you kinda went on a rant without responding to any of the arguments for why it is logical non-moochey buyer behavior to offer 60% of your near-VCP prices. You say it is insulting because it wastes your time as the seller, but you can auto-decline or just ignore offers below your threshold selling price. I am a seller as well, and I would rather have low offers than no offers because, as I mentioned earlier, they occasionally turn into sales. If you are offended by a person who wants to buy your item but doesn't do it the way you want, you probably shouldn't be in business or you should reconsider your model to be more customer-friendly and generally pleasant.
EDIT: If you "don't care for much back-and-forth", why not eliminate BO and just do reasonably-priced BINs? Saves you valuable time! Like it or not, if you list with BO, it definitionally IS haggling. If you don't want to participate in the fish market, that is your choice. There's a listing for that: BIN. >>
Dude seriously. You are defending bottom feeders. I am getting the feeling you must throw out these kinds of offers too.
A few months back I had a 1986 Topps Traded Tiffany PSA 9 Barry Bonds listed. I had it at $199.99 or best offer. They were generally selling in the $145 to $150 range. The only way to get more is to ask. That being said a guy offers me $25. You think this is a buyer? It is a loser who is trying to send the message I am an idiot.
It is not a customer and I for one don't care if my offer back of a penny less hurts his feelings and he never returns. Guess what I sold the card for $145 a few days later. I had a full price offer but the guy wanted me to wait for his tax refund check and I opted not to.
<< <i>It is a loser who is trying to send the message I am an idiot. >>
I am not sure why you see it this way. Who knows what a person who does that is thinking? Maybe that's all the money they have? Maybe they don't know how much it is worth? I don't know. You don't either. And, to impute some motive ("they are telling me my business!! *shakes fist*) says more about you than them. I'd rather counter slightly off my original price but still well above my threshold selling price and be professional about it. But, that's just me. I would rather make the most +EV business decision than get in a pissing contest and tell a buyer to never come back.
I definitely make aggressive offers on many items. I am not offering 15% of VCP, but you can bet that I am looking to get deals by starting low and then coming up through negotiation. I would say that it has worked very well for me and I am generally quite happy with the purchases I have made.
<< <i>
<< <i>Do you make offers to others on EBAY of 5% or 10% of their asking price? >>
Nope. It's a waste of time, because 99% of sellers won't sell for that. And, for items I really want, I would prefer not to waste an offer since eBay limits the number to 3.
But, If I find a BIN/BO from a seller that I have not interacted with, I definitely start at like 60% of the BIN price. Sometimes you are surprised by how willing a seller will go. That's kind of the point: as a buyer, you can't know, so it makes total sense to start low. You can always go up. You can't go down if the seller accepts an offer that is higher than their selling floor. >>
Dpeck, you also already asked me this ... see above ^^
<< <i>Telephoto--you kinda went on a rant without responding to any of the arguments for why it is logical non-moochey buyer behavior to offer 60% of your near-VCP prices. You say it is insulting because it wastes your time as the seller, but you can auto-decline or just ignore offers below your threshold selling price. I am a seller as well, and I would rather have low offers than no offers because, as I mentioned earlier, they occasionally turn into sales. If you are offended by a person who wants to buy your item but doesn't do it the way you want, you probably shouldn't be in business or you should reconsider your model to be more customer-friendly and generally pleasant.
EDIT: If you "don't care for much back-and-forth", why not eliminate BO and just do reasonably-priced BINs? Saves you valuable time! Like it or not, if you list with BO, it definitionally IS haggling. If you don't want to participate in the fish market, that is your choice. There's a listing for that: BIN. >>
First off, frankly I rarely if ever use BO on eBay for the very reasons stated. And I clearly stated that using the auto-reject feature takes lowballers out of the equation. As to the rest of it-Offering 60% of price guide isn't necessarily lowballing depending on the item quality and demand. Too many variables to make a blanket statement that all offers below X% are lowballing.
I was also referring to how we handle non-eBay business in our store and at shows. We are coin/currency dealers but the principles are the same, plus I've been in and out of the sports market on a personal level for years. I've also been considering moving some of my personal sports stuff on ebay... so I've been lurking/occasionally commenting here to get a feel for sentiments about certain aspects of the current market.
As to my business model, it does just fine and has for 30 years, thanks. And I don't consider lowballers to be customers because in my experience they invariably won't buy anything unless it's too cheap.
If your business model is to cater to those folks, by all means be my guest, but you won't stay in business long if you have to rely on such "customers" to keep going.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
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<< <i>It is a loser who is trying to send the message I am an idiot. >>
I am not sure why you see it this way. Who knows what a person who does that is thinking? Maybe that's all the money they have? Maybe they don't know how much it is worth? I don't know. You don't either. And, to impute some motive ("they are telling me my business!! *shakes fist*) says more about you than them. I'd rather counter slightly off my original price but still well above my threshold selling price and be professional about it. But, that's just me. I would rather make the most +EV business decision than get in a pissing contest and tell a buyer to never come back.
I definitely make aggressive offers on many items. I am not offering 15% of VCP, but you can bet that I am looking to get deals by starting low and then coming up through negotiation. I would say that it has worked very well for me and I am generally quite happy with the purchases I have made. >>
You just don't get it.
Sending an offer of in this case 17% of what the card generally sells for is not how you start the process. Period.
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<< <i>Do you make offers to others on EBAY of 5% or 10% of their asking price? >>
Nope. It's a waste of time, because 99% of sellers won't sell for that. And, for items I really want, I would prefer not to waste an offer since eBay limits the number to 3.
But, If I find a BIN/BO from a seller that I have not interacted with, I definitely start at like 60% of the BIN price. Sometimes you are surprised by how willing a seller will go. That's kind of the point: as a buyer, you can't know, so it makes total sense to start low. You can always go up. You can't go down if the seller accepts an offer that is higher than their selling floor. >>
Dpeck, you also already asked me this ... see above ^^ >>
Then why are you defending low ballers? They are not customers and if so not the ones you want to be dealing with anyway.
<< <i>Then why are you defending low ballers? They are not customers and if so not the ones you want to be dealing with anyway. >>
I'm not, really. I am saying:
a) No offer is insulting, but some are ineffective. Lowballing just doesn't work, which is why I don't do it. I don't get offended when I receive a low offer because I don't assign a personal meaning to it.
b) There is a logical case for offering an amount that is sometimes *significantly* below VCP. I do that sometimes, for the reasons I have outlined.
I don't know how much we disagree.
I am in this conversation because I do a fair amount of buying and selling on eBay and want to get the strategy part of both "right". So, let me ask:
Dpeck, I respect you from reading what you've written on these boards. You also clearly have done your fair share of eBay transactions. Let's say there is a card for your set that you want (I dunno, a Wrestling All Stars Series A upgrade). It is listed BIN/BO and the price is 120% VCP (assume that there is a VCP for this card--I don't really know anything about wrestling cards or how stable that market is). Could you describe your strategy when making an offer on that card? Do you start with a price below what you would actually be willing to pay, or do you opt for a "this is my best--take it or leave it"-type approach that Telephoto described? Have you thought about why you BO as a buyer in the way you do? If so, why do you choose that strategy?
Honestly wondering. These things matter to all of us as buyers. Clearly this is *some* disagreement among collectors about how to go about it, so we should talk about it.
18 year old buyer - Wants to purchase an expensive card but is a starving student and can't afford the asking price. He offers 20% of the BIN hoping by a miracle the seller accepts
Potential successful seller - Replies with a snide remark about how insulting the offer was and not to ever waste his time again.
Fast forward 15 years.
Said buyer graduated law school and now heads a successful practice. He is now a hobby heavyweight and well known in the collecting community as someone who often pays above market prices for quality cards. He's one of the handful of set builders still paying hyper retail prices for cards.
Potential successful seller has bumped along on eBay with mostly positive feedback over the 15 year period. The seller is getting close to retirement and would like to unload his high end inventory to set up his nest egg. He contacts the hobby heavyweight and offers to put together a package deal knowing he can maximize his revenue by selling to this buyer. The buyer recalls the sour taste he had from said dealer when he was younger and less successful. He politely declines, possibly costing the dealer thousands of dollars.
Unlikely scenario? Perhaps. But why go out of your way to alienate buyers?
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<< <i>Then why are you defending low ballers? They are not customers and if so not the ones you want to be dealing with anyway. >>
I'm not, really. I am saying:
a) No offer is insulting, but some are ineffective. Lowballing just doesn't work, which is why I don't do it. I don't get offended when I receive a low offer because I don't assign a personal meaning to it.
b) There is a logical case for offering an amount that is sometimes *significantly* below VCP. I do that sometimes, for the reasons I have outlined.
I don't know how much we disagree.
I am in this conversation because I do a fair amount of buying and selling on eBay and want to get the strategy part of both "right". So, let me ask:
Dpeck, I respect you from reading what you've written on these boards. You also clearly have done your fair share of eBay transactions. Let's say there is a card for your set that you want (I dunno, a Wrestling All Stars Series A upgrade). It is listed BIN/BO and the price is 120% VCP (assume that there is a VCP for this card--I don't really know anything about wrestling cards or how stable that market is). Could you describe your strategy when making an offer on that card? Do you start with a price below what you would actually be willing to pay, or do you opt for a "this is my best--take it or leave it"-type approach that Telephoto described? Have you thought about why you BO as a buyer in the way you do? If so, why do you choose that strategy?
Honestly wondering. These things matter to all of us as buyers. Clearly this is *some* disagreement among collectors about how to go about it, so we should talk about it. >>
I had a full response typed and hit some button and it went nuts and I am starting over.
Using the sets I collect is really tough to accurately answer your question. In many cases the cards I need get auctioned off, get listed as Buy It Now's with little wiggle room if any and trade on the private market. I have bought quite a few cards direct from dealers and in all cases contacted them looking to see if they had the cards that just hit the pop report. If so I ask what they want for them and if we are in the ballpark I buy them. If it is more then I think is fair I might counter slightly or just say good luck and hopefully you get them sold.
If I am making an offer on a card that is listed I generally come in with my best offer first. I would never make an official offer that is massively below the asking price. If the price appears outrageous and there are prior sales that point in this direction I contact the seller and say I don't want to insult you with a low offer but I am willing to pay X and here are some prior sales for your information. Thanks for your consideration. I completely get the idea of offering a little lower then your best offer first. But taking an offer from $25 to $125 is in almost all cases not going to happen. One of the primary reasons I make a real offer is in case someone else makes one too. Any card that might move quick you need to show you are for real is my belief.
I want to get things at the lowest price I can but I am also realistic with what to expect. There are many items that are more liquid then others and if one wants to try and haggle to save a few bucks that is their prerogative. But don't make a crap offer on a liquid card and think you will be taken seriously. You can't tell me it is good business to offer a guy who has a 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan PSA 9 $250 when he has it listed at $2,200.
It is no secret I ask high prices for cards. I am not motivated to sell them cheap. It does me no good. It devalues what I have and I would rather just keep it. Not everyone is in the same boat. Some want to move product and if so are willing to take lower prices. I am not one of them. I will sometimes run auctions and they generally do well. If you read my feedback the people who have bought from me are always pleased. This will keep the right people coming back is my view.
Ask yourself this question. If you got an offer of $10 on a card that you had listed for $100 and there was a note that said no wrestling card is worth more then this. Would you be concerned about losing this persons business? I know I am not. There are some wild characters who dabble in wrestling cards and I promise you many of the stereo types of wrestling fans are true. Some of my best customers live in trailer parks or very low end houses and use their disability money to buy cards. I will deal with anyone who is respectful and that is why I am adamant that the low ball offers are not and I have little patience for them.
Cards are a hobby for me and I sell occasionally and perhaps if it was a full time gig I would be more concerned about losing a customer but I am not and once again I don't consider low ballers customers anyways.
<< <i>One of the primary reasons I make a real offer is in case someone else makes one too. Any card that might move quick you need to show you are for real is my belief. >>
Dpeck, thanks for taking the time to write that... twice.
I want to comment on one thing you wrote, above.
I completely agree, in certain situations. I would say that I BO differently when a new item that I have wanted but has not been present in the market is first listed. In those situations, it is pretty reasonable to assume that there may be other interested parties, and I don't slowroll the good stuff. I am pretty much entering with a solid "top of my range"-type offer and doing so quickly. I think that completely makes sense. "Starting low" works better when you come across an item where there is less urgency. Say, it has been sitting for a minute and you can take 24 hours and haggle a bit for a better deal.