She’s been around a bit, but she’s oh so colorful, and that scar…(EDS H5/H6)

mbogoman

It just doesn’t extend far enough!!! Sorry for the TV news lead-in, but I couldn’t resist. This came up last Thursday in a group of 3 Morgans as a Buy it Now for $99 and I pulled the trigger almost immediately. The die crack from the rim and into the field beyond the dot was distinct and clear in the seller’s pics. The crack “bumps” to the right of the dot were pretty mature, too. At worst it was an EDS H4, but beyond that was anybody’s guess. With the toning, the circulation wear and tear, and somewhat less than sharp photos, I couldn’t tell if the crack extended onto the face. I thought I could see some bumps on the nose and there is a line along the cheek/jaw area that lines up perfectly when overlaid on a true Scarface, so I waited, somewhat impatiently.

After holding my breath since Thursday, it arrived yesterday. In hand, the colors are spectacular! The protected areas of Liberty are bathed in copper/gold and the fields range from golden to deep steel blue and purple. No signs of cleaning anywhere. As for the crack…I can definitely see the “waves” in the field in front of the nose, although the toning makes it hard to see if the last “wave” goes all the way to the nose. I see what looks like the beginning of a crack on the upper part of the nose bridge, but beyond that, I can’t see any more crack evidence. There is too much wear in the affected area. There is a small bump to the upper right of the nostril (right where it would be expected on later die stages), but I don’t think this bump is typically seen on earlier die stages. There could be something to the right of the mouth, but again, it’s too banged up in that area to be sure. So, after all that and inspecting it in hand, it appears to be an H5 or H6 and would probably grade XF45 (low probability shot at AU50) IMO. I was hoping to join Bob (AUandAG) with this, but alas! Still not a bad pick for a net of $50.

So I have a couple questions (not being an expert on VAM values): Will it be worth it to have it graded? With variety attribution? Does the PCGS label specify the Harrison state or just “EDS”? FWIW, I do plan on selling it and I will be at Long Beach on Thursday if anyone wants a look.

Cheers,

[URL=http://s966.photobucket.com/user/mbogoman/media/Coins/1888OScarfaceEDSobv001_zps91548757.jpg.html][/URL]

Flatter light for a different look at the details:
[URL=http://s966.photobucket.com/user/mbogoman/media/Coins/1888OScarfaceEDSobv008_zpsd21a9d25.jpg.html][/URL]

Angled light to show off the toning:
[URL=http://s966.photobucket.com/user/mbogoman/media/Coins/1888OScarfaceEDSobvtoning01_zpsdf8a7b39.jpg.html][/URL]

stealer

Easy 55 from the obverse, but it does depend on how the non-scarred side looks

rawmorgan

This coin is a very early stage die break, before the "tilted field."
Without looking at the reverse I couldn't give you an accurate grade, but from the obverse it could be MS-60 to 62, as most of these did not circulate.
The scratch above Liberty's forehead is very distracting.
It's worth about $50-$60, I wouldn't really get it slabbed.

lostincoins

If you will sell me an MS62 scarface for $60.00 I will take all you have right now.

19Lyds

<< <i>If you will sell me an MS62 scarface for $60.00 I will take all you have right now. >>

Sorry.

While I see the die crack on the EP Bullet I'm just not seeing the die crack (scar) across the face in the supplied photos.

From VAM World:

The 1888-O VAM-1B comes in a number of stages, most of which are early die state (EDS) coins that are not "Scarface". Most of these EDS stages are worth much less than a true "Scarface".

Maybe that's what this coin is?

lostincoins

I see your poin as I would want a better pic of the cheek or to see this coin in hand to as to see it under better lighting to look for the indents for the scarface.

mbogoman

Based on my inspections in hand and using the VamView Sept. 2007 issue as a guide (it has all 10 Harrison die stages described and pictured), it is for sure an H5 and likely an H6. The only thing holding it from an H6 is that I can't tell for sure if the last "wave" touches the nose (my eyesight and the toning make it difficult). Lesser stages (i.e. H2 and H3) have sold for up to $400 on Ebay recently). I don't think this would go MS - there is high point wear.

Here is a photo of the reverse:

[URL=http://s966.photobucket.com/user/mbogoman/media/Coins/1888OScarfaceEDSrev_zps6345db2c.jpg.html][/URL]

19Lyds

<< <i>Based on my inspections in hand and using the VamView Sept. 2007 issue as a guide (it has all 10 Harrison die stages described and pictured), it is for sure an H5 and likely an H6. The only thing holding it from an H6 is that I can't tell for sure if the last "wave" touches the nose (my eyesight and the toning make it difficult). Lesser stages (i.e. H2 and H3) have sold for up to $400 on Ebay recently). I don't think this would go MS - there is high point wear.

Here is a photo of the reverse:

>>

Well congrats but until you can provide photo's of the actual scar on the cheek, all you have is either VAM-1B1 or VAM-1B2 which command significantly lower process.

Again, Congrats on the find!

BTW, don't put the URL tags in conjunction with the IMG tags when posting photos. All that is needed is the IMG tags.

mbogoman

Yes, it seems clear that it is a VAM-1B2, at least it is to me in hand. I fully understand that it is not a SCARFACE !!! as I clearly indicated in my OP. Let's put that to rest.

I'd still appreciate opinions on whether or not it would be worthwhile to get it slabbed or not. A couple have expressed their opinions. Maybe tonight when some members who are more in tune to the VAM market have a look.

TIA

19Lyds

<< <i>Yes, it seems clear that it is a VAM-1B2, at least it is to me in hand. I fully understand that it is not a SCARFACE !!! as I clearly indicated in my OP. Let's put that to rest.

I'd still appreciate opinions on whether or not it would be worthwhile to get it slabbed or not. A couple have expressed their opinions. Maybe tonight when some members who are more in tune to the VAM market have a look.

TIA >>

I do not know if PCGS will even attribute this particular VAM but it would cost you whatever grading fee's you select (Economy $20/Regular $30) plus a $24 attribution fee plus whatever shipping and return shipping values are.

You might visit VAMS and More's Webpage where there are three 1B1's listed in various grades. All three are in ANACS holders so PCGS might not recognize the VAM.

Now, if you could sell it for up to $400, then yes, I'd say it was worth having it graded and attributed by ANACS. Maybe contact the folks at VAMS and More to see what they think since they deal in nothing but VAMS.

AUandAG

Here's the label of a recently graded H6.

bob

mbogoman

Thanks for the pic of the VAM 1B, Bob. I'm kinda leaning towards throwing this one in with my next submission. The toning is really pretty nice - it doesn't show well in my pics.

I'll find a full blown scarface one of these days!!!

rawmorgan

<< <i>Yes, it seems clear that it is a VAM-1B2, at least it is to me in hand. I fully understand that it is not a SCARFACE !!! as I clearly indicated in my OP. Let's put that to rest.

I'd still appreciate opinions on whether or not it would be worthwhile to get it slabbed or not. A couple have expressed their opinions. Maybe tonight when some members who are more in tune to the VAM market have a look.

TIA >>



As someone who has cataloged my VAMs for 7 or so years, here is my opinion on what I stated earlier. Again this is only my opinion; feel free to disagree, that's what were here for.

1) The VAM market is not doing well right now.
a) The auction results from Heritage show EDS Vam 1B in MS-60-61 as being in the $100 range. I'm sorry I don't have an ebay account so I don't know what they are going for over there. If they are going for more then my information is absolutly wrong and needs to be adjusted.
b) Heritage AuctionsHeritage Auctions on EDS Vam 1B
c) The VAM world is a very fickle place.

2) Your photos only make it look like the die crack only extends to the field equidistant between the raised dot and the nose (a much earlier die state from H5/H6); pre tilted field.
a) If your coin can get over that "Tilted Field" hump you can get a pretty good return on your investment.
b) VamWorld
c) As it is right now; you can expect bids of $50-$60; if you encapsulate it which PCGS will define "Vam 1b EDS" on the label. It really depends on how far the crack has traveled.

3) I don't know what you mean by "wave" in front of the nose. In my experience if there isn't a crack it doesn't conform for the "Harrison Stages."

4) The scratch on Liberty's forhead could cost you some points with the graders; if that truly is a scratch I can only go by the photos.
a) These are heavily bag marked as most did not go into circulation. See mine below.

5) The toning is not coming through on the photos; it looks muddy.........which pretty much sums up all my photos.

6) I hope you get as much as you want from this coin; I truly do. I've been sitting on my TDS for a few years since the market took a southward swing.
a) I wish you all the luck in the world.

Here's mine from Heritage's auction in 2010 August Boston, MA Signature & Platinum Night ANA Coin Auction

19Lyds

<< <i>Here's the label of a recently graded H6.

bob
>>

Very Cool.