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PCGS Generations - Updated 6-4-21

LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited June 4, 2021 5:58AM in U.S. Coin Forum

This thread started as a continuation of the pioneering work done by Conder101 with a few minor modifications, editorial comments and updates following his last post in 2006. It will cover only PCGS. You can find his post by searching "Generations" at the US Coin forum. I'm doing this as an extension of trying to keep my photo archives up to date - there are several new generations that need a number assigned to them.


Conder101's numbering system will be followed closely early on but then modified. The reason for this is that his work assigned generations more based on discovery than an attempt to follow the emission sequence. So, for example, the "regency slab" is assigned generation 9 in his post, even though he recognized it should be earlier. I'll be calling it 4.5, just as he developed 2.5 and 3.5 to accomodate newly "discovered" generations. The 2.5 and 3.5 are already solidly entrenched as generations and will not be renumbered. If a new generation is discovered, the old ones will be renumbered accordingly - sorry. image


These generations are different than those used by PCGS since they in general ignore the subtle changes in the slab label or transitional slabs, something that some of us have an interest in.


This thread is intended to be flexible based on input from the PCGS forum so if you have additional information regarding generations, dates of issue, etc. please let me know so it can be incorporated.


This is not intended to cover every style of promotional label ever generated by PCGS - that's a project for someone else. image

Specific question that need answers.

Generations that extended over a longer time period for Commem's vs regular issues.
When did the pronged holder first appear?
Transitional slab varieties not adequately covered?
Subtle changes in slabs I've overlooked?
Etc.

As in the original thread, the description of the generation follows the picture.








PCGS 1.0 The true 1st generation rattler. White, no "ribs" in paper, all begin with serial #108....... Unsure if the green rattlers starting with 108...... are an intermediate style. Used for a very short time before the green rattler.


Mike Sherman has noted that there are 2 styles with different printer fonts - if you compare the dot matrix forming the letters and numbers between the 2 labels above, you will see the difference. The earlier version has larger dots with fewer dots per letter/number, a serif on 7, etc. This was produced "for a few days in Feb. 1986". The second version was produced for roughly 2 weeks in Feb. 1986. Mike Kittle maintains a census on the USCoinForum - 46 reported as of 8/17.


The Gen. 1.0 letters are in general stronger on the obverse and the green on the reverse is subjectively deeper/richer than the 1.2 generation. In talking with a PCGS insider who was there from the beginning, the white rattler was nothing more than a mistake - the paper supplier provided the wrong labels and they went with it until the correct labels arrived about a week later. image





In 2017, PCGS offered the basic 4 generations in a retro holder (the 4 being the plastic only rather than splitting out the label as separate generations) to include this retro white "rattler". Looks odd not being in a rattler holder and as of August 2017, I haven't seen to many of these, most dealers opting for the retro OGH or Doily.





PCGS 1.2 The green rattler. Still commonly seen in 2017. According to Conder101, "These were used from the Feb of 1986 when PCGS opened through Sept 1989 when changes were made as a result of the counterfeit slabs that had appeared earlier." You're probably asking yourself, "Self, why isn't this 1.1??". image The reason is I will be using these generations in the sample section as well and 1.1 is reserved for the sample rattler with the serial number consisting of all 0's.





PCGS 2.0 The 1st 2 piece holder, basically a inner rattler with an outer ring added. Bar code added to the front label. Raised PCGS on the outer ring, lower right obverse. No "PCGS" top center. Square hologram on reverse with rounded corners, used on several subsequent generations. Coin number and barcode align on left. Extra designation on years that have overlap coin types, i.e.: Buffalo in 1938, Morgan in 1921, etc. According to Conder101: "This variety was used in Oct and Nov of 1989". Mike Sherman notes a production period of Oct. to Dec. 1989 and lumps these together with the 2.5 and 3.5 into a single generation (based more on the plastic rather than the label) following the 3.0 Doily. These are somewhat scarce as of 2017.





PCGS 2.5 Very similar to the 2.0 but PCGS has been added to the top. According to Conder101: "My guess is that it was probably produced during the last week or so of Nov 1989." These are actually scarce and are seen far less frequently than the slightly different style 2.0 and 3.5 generations.





PCGS 3.0 This style is called a "Doily" because of the lace like background used on the label. According to Conder101, "This variety was used in Dec of 89 only". Mike Sherman notes a production run from Sept. to Oct. 1989. Still commonly seem with Morgans, Merc and Franklin halves, other type coins more scarce, some rare and others not yet reported. For a reasonably current population report, search "Doily" in the US Coin forum, the census formerly kept current by Billet7, now kept up by Drunner and Lakesammman. There are a few new Doilies added to the census each month.


It's interesting that the label layout of the 3.0 Doily can be found in styles that are the same as the 2.0, 2.5 and 3.5 generations (pictures below). For my files, I've chosen to label them as 3.20, 3.25 and 3.35.










Retro-Doily These are shown so that you can see the difference between the original Doily and the Retro-Doilies. Initially, only ASE's were slabbed in retro doily holders. Beginning in 2017, there was a second generation of retro doily holders that could be requested for any coin (2nd picture). It remains to be seen how many generations of each will be developed. image



PCGS 3.5 Same style holder as 3.0 above but with a return to the green label. Numbers slightly shifted to the left with respect to the barcode compared with Gen. 2.5. Same square hologram on the reverse. Conder101 suggested: "As a transitional variety it was probably only produced during the last week of Dec 1989". Mike Sherman notes production from Oct. 89 to Jan. 1990 lumping together 2.0, 2.5 and 3.5 into this time frame. This is still a fairly commonly seen style in 2017.




PCGS 4.0 Conder101 describes this one well! "This is the first of the "Green Label" slabs. (While the previous labels may have had a green tint to them, this slab was the first where the label was a definite pale green label!) Unfortunately the green color in the label was not stable and the labels of this variety had a tendency to change color over time. Sometimes the blue pigment breaks down and the label becomes more and more yellow sometimes reaching amost a Canary yellow. Other times the yellow breaks down and the label becomes more blue. I have seen a couple of these where the label is a brighter blue than is seen on the current slabs. One identifying feature of this variety is the large font used in the serial numbers. The serial number begins at or slightly to the left of the left edge of the barcode below it. The shell is now a one part slab with the stacking edge an intergral part of the shell. This holder was used from Jan of 1990 through some time in 1995". Sherman notes a run from 1/90 to 2/93. I would also add this is the first generation w/o edge perforations on the insert. PCGS on the plastic now in the field of the slab lower right rather than on the edge.





PCGS 4.5 Regency Slab - Conder101's description: "This slab really belongs between #'s 4 and 5 but this is where you're going to get it. This was the Regency Slab, a special premium slab that was intended to allow the collector to recognize "special" coins. Either to showcase very rare pieces, special pedigree coins or even special events. The Regency slab is a large slab, five inches high and three across at the widest point. They cost $50 ($30 slabbing fee plus $20 for the special holder and personalized inscription) and you were allowed to specify a two line inscription to appear on the front label. (Maximm 44 characters.) According to Rick Montgomery these were produced from 1992 to 1995 but so far I've only been able to trace them from Mid 1994 to the first quarter of 1995".


When the forum was trying to figure out the production dates, Boiler78 recalled seeing the Eliasberg 1827 dime in a Regency holder, confirmed at HA archives that describes it being in a "Deluxe PCGS Holder". Since it was sold in the Eliasberg sale 5/96, this slab must have been produced at least up until May or June 1996.


Mike Sherman estimates 700 were made, about 1/2 of which were the Danny Kaye Lirot coin which included a green bag and wooden presentation box. If you search "Regency" in the US Coin forum, "astronaut" maintains a current census. So far only 2 Gen. 4.5 samples are known, both made as a marketing effort to land the Byron Reed consignment by showing how nice the coins would look in a deluxe holder. So far, no plastic Regency-size boxes are known to exist.


Personal perspective - this is a specialty slab akin to the multi coin holders and not really a generational slab. To me, a "generation" is a design that you would receive back on a routine submission, week in and out. The 4.5 is more like the multi-coin holders, retro-slabs and other "by request" slabs. That being said, it's cool and very collectible especially for those trying to put together a collectible holder type set.





PCGS 5.0 Again per Conder101: "The second "Green Label" slab. At first glance almost the same as the previous variety but the font has been changed. The most noticable difference is the smaller size of the digits in the serial number and the number now begins well to the right of the left edge of the barcode. On the back the line "Copying prohibited" appears below the PCGS logo. (This is the only variety where that line is found.) PCGS had finally corrected the color stability labels and all or almost all of the slabs from this variety have the regular green label. These were used from sometime in 1995 through Oct of 1998".

Regarding the starting date, this from TomB - "Generation 5.0 was used at least as far back as December, 1994 since I have a Type II gold dollar in a 5.0 with a receipt with serial number recorded and dated from December, 1994." In Mike Shermans update, he notes these were made from 3/93 through 9/98.





The 2017 OGH retro holder, quite popular with the dealers especially for gold coins.







PCGS 6.0 Conder101 writes: "In Nov of 98 PCGS dropped the green label in favor of the current light blue. This first light blue variety usually stikes people as being odd but they have problems putting their finger on exactly why. On this variety the date is found in the upper left hand corner and the denomination/type is in the upper right corner. In the center of the second line is PCGS and the grade. The serial number is at the center of the bottom label, and the barcode has been banished to the back label. This variety was only used for circulation type coins (including proofs). This variety was only used in Nov and Dec of 1998."


In Mike Sherman's update, he clarifies the scarcity of this style. It was actually produced from 1998-2002 and used for those coins that didn't have a well established coin numbering system (moderns, colonials, etc). So, for example, you will see hundreds of these with colonials in them but you won't find a 1938-D Buffalo nickel since the Buff had a well developed numbering system by this generation!


The $50 slug slab shown is a little different only for the sake of showing that there will be some variation. Also, note the change in the hologram on the reverse, now featuring the PNG logo. The sides of the hologram will become outwardly convex in later generations. Note also the variations in the length of the serial numbers from earlier generations (7 vs 8).





PCGS 6.1 This is included for historical reasons since it was originally called out as a sub-variety. They are surprisingly hard to fine, more so than the 6.2, for example. As you can see on the 4.0 slab shown previously, the T1 designation started before generation 6.1. Still, these are fun to look for and include in a "complete" collection of PCGS plastic. Conder101 notes these were produced in Nov. 1998.





PCGS 6.2 Conder101 notes that in Dec. 1998 the "T" was changed to "Type", a designation first used with the rattler generations.





PCGS 6.3 Conder101 called this style with commemoratives or bullion as a different generation. To me, they are still generation 6 but sometimes with a different orientation of the label to suit PCGS's need at the time. The use of this style continued until at least 2002. I search eBay regularly trying to find a dated commem or bullion dated 2003 in this style holder. image This style continued well into the Gen. 7 period with samples.





The retro old blue holder. I nearly aspirated my beer when I first saw this generation referred to nostalgically as the "OBH" in a eBay listing!





PCGS 7.0 This where I make a significant departure from Conder101's classification, lumping his generation 7 and 8 together. This is for several reasons, the most important of which to me is, "Do I have it - do I need it". When I see this style, it makes me think of a single generation, whether for regular type coins, bullion, errors, pioneer gold or Commems, even though the lettering might be a bit different to accommodate the needs of PCGS. This approach will be carried out from here on BUT bullion and others that depart slightly in lettering style or placement may be called out as sub-types. Stay tuned. image


"Series" and "Coin" have been added as a line to the label making for a busy label that get's even busier in the next generation when the barcode is returned to the front. Note the slightly convex margins to the hologram on this example.


This update re: start date - This from TomB - "I submitted a coin in September, 1998 and received it in October, 1998 in the new blue holder that is know as generation 8 (Conder101) and generation 7 (this thread)." We now know from Shermans work that this style was produced from 1998-2002.





Now this is an odd one - generation 7 obverse with a throw-back hologram resembling Gen. 5 but gold in tone. The PCGS lettering on the reverse is also gold in tone. If you have any information as to whether this was a special edition, please let me know. Boiler78 spotted this one for me at the 2014 ANA in Chicago. I was fortunate to get a picture before it was cracked out and resubmitted. :cry:





PCGS 8 The barcode returns to the front, o/w very similar to the preceding generation. Conder101 notes this was used from 2/02 to 11/04. There are a few 2005 coins with this style of holder which could be from early release 2005 coins or this generation could have "bled" into early 2005. Mike Sherman confirms that the obverse continued into 2005 with a change in the reverse holograms (noted below).





An example of a 2005 dated coin with the Gen. 8 obverse but with the new reverse, a transitional slab.





PCGS 8.1 PCGS "lost" the PNG endorsement (perhaps intentionally??), this creating a transitional hologram on the reverse, the obverse the same as 8.0. The NASDAQ/CLCT symbols are below the coin. This from Conder101: "In early 2004 PCGSA was outbid for the endorsement of PNG as their official grading service. Therefore they had to remove the PNG logo from the hologram on the back. They replaced the PNG logo with an image of a St Gaudins double eagle and their stock exchange symbol." I've only seen this hologram on this generation. If you have examples on others, pictures would be appreciated. The hologram sticker is a bit taller to accomodate the design, about 16mm instead of 13mm. The background has a brushed steel look that doesn't change color like the PCGS, Saint and stock symbol do.





PCGS 8.2 The 3rd hologram used in this generation and the one carried on to the next few generations. You can see it better on the next picture but there is a small gap between the ":" after NASDAQ and CLCT - this gap will disappear on a future iteration. Sticker is 13mm tall. All elements including the background change color as the slab is rotated. Diameter of the Saint is about 9.8 mm. The letters appear to cast a shadow on the background unlike the other holograms before and after this.





PCGS 9.0 The series and coin number is dropped, the letters and bar code subtly smaller. The background is blue with subtle white speckles - almost like a light snow. What it really reminds me of is painting a room, changing from white to blue. It looks like the 1st coat of paint has been applied with a roller but a second coat is needed.image Produced from 11/05 through 12/11, a very long run and therefor very common.





PCGS 9.1 There are 2 differences between this and the 9.0 - prongs around the coin and the updated hologram with the TRUSTSEAL background and the whitish Saint. Keep your eyes out for the obvious variations - the older hologram and the clear insert/prongs.


In March of 2010 the "sniffer" was introduced along with "Secure Plus" service. That was really 2 components. Laser scanning of coins for future reference was the secure part. A plus designation on coins deserving of the grade was the second part. This is the first generation you'll see with the "+" designation, both after the grade and also in the grade following the coin number.





PCGS 10.1 The background becomes a darker blue. It wasn't until this generation that a shield was added to the label to designate the "secure" part of "secure plus". For Generation 10 I've chosen to lump these together (dark blue label with or w/o shield) rather than add a separate generation, although I am open to arguments one way or the other. Early on, the hologram was the same as PCGS 9.0. Later, the hologram is subtly revised, bolder in appearance, the easiest pickup being the space between ":" and "C" is gone. This style is somewhat scarce, especially w/o the shield.





PCGS 10.2 Transitional type with the older hologram carried over from Generation 9.0 but without the reverse barcode added.





PCGS 10.3 - The final version of this generation, barcode both back and front, this hologram carried forward to PCGS 11.0. Also, as pointed out by MsMorrisine, note the change to the clear pronged insert. This hologram first appears in Gen. 9. The Saint is a bit larger, 10.3 mm and is whitish w/o changing colors. The background is silvery and when rotated has cartwheel luster, the letters changing color as the slab is rotated. The letters are now outlined in black.





PCGS 11.0 The background on the front now changes to a blue at the top of the label becoming whiter towards the bottom. The reverse barcode remains, the background of the reverse white. The reverse hologram remains the same. These were first posted on the forum in September 2012 and were used up until early 2014 when the new holder/hologram were introduced. Also, as pointed out by MsMorrisine, note the change to the whitish (previously clear) pronged insert. As of 9/14 some submissions are still being returned with this style of holder.





PCGS 12.0 Several changes are made, the plastic clearer, 2 "studs" are through the label, the "rivets" in each corner of the inner slab somewhat resembling the older 2.5/3.0/3.5 generations and the hologram is completely changed. The Dupont hologram has several cuts in it to prevent it being removed intact and has greater "depth". When rotated, the numbers 1-4 appear in each of the 4 corners. As in the preceding few generations, this slab comes in the regular label or with the added secure plus shield. Introduced in early 2014, PCGS offered re-holders with the new style for $5 beginning at the Feb. Long Beach Show.


The Gen. 12 era officially ended May 2015 but we'll see if they use up leftovers on ASE's and other low cost items.





PCGS 12.1 At the Feb. 2014 Long Beach show, some world coins were being holdered with the new style plastic but with the previous hologram creating a Generation 12.1 transitional type. This was pointed out to me by illini420. Even though it uses the older hologram, it followed the introduction of PCGS 12.0 so it's placed here. image As pointed out by OriginalDan, the PCGS lettering can be seen under the hologram so it is the same label as was used for PCGS 12.0.





PCGS 12.2 I was sent these pics by Valente151 in August 2014 of this slab. Here's his explanation of this transitional variety. This was in March (2014), but I just noticed today that we have a true "transition" slab. The front/top piece of plastic of the holder is the old blue tinted plastic, without the two dots on each side of the bottom of the label. The back/bottom piece of plastic is the new clear plastic, with the new hologram, and the dots on the label.





PCGS 13.0 In Mid-May 2015 Don Willis announced a new style of PCGS slab. New features announce by him include:
1. The bottom of the holder fits into the top with a complete weld - the slab is slightly thicker as a result.
2. The holder is sturdy enough that it needs to be destroyed to remove the coin - decreased chance of reuse.
3. The plastic is reformulated - clear and scratch resistant.
4. New reverse hologram baked into the plastic- no tearing off like the old Dupont hologram.
5. Plastic "tagged" with a detectible component that can help differentiate real from counterfeit PCGS holders.


Note the lack of the "studs" through the label compared with Gen. 12.0
Picture courtesy of BlueCC who was the first to post the new holder on the PCGS forum 5-22-15





PCGS 13.1 A minor variation with the QRS code missing.





PCGS 13.2 Change of logo on the reverse adding the gold shield. Pointed out to me by Sandman70gt in early June 2020. He received a similar slab on a routine submission in April 2019 and notes it's an overall change in the PCGS logo. I had assumed it was an error as there was no gold shield on the obverse but was wrong.





PCGS 13.3 In late Dec. PCGS announced that future gold shield slabs would include at no additional charge new chip-embedded slabs for coin/grade verification. The reverse was changed to show a radio-wave like black symbol indicating the presence of the chip.

In a press release announcing it would begin on 2-24-20, this information was provided.

Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) is excited to announce its partnership with HID Global to begin embedding high-security Near Field Communication (NFC) chip technology in PCGS coin slabs. PCGS slabs embedded with NFC technology allow any collector or dealer with a modern smartphone to easily verify that the coin encapsulated within was indeed certified, graded, and slabbed by PCGS.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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Comments

  • Options
    CoinRaritiesOnlineCoinRaritiesOnline Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭✭
    Wow - this must have taken a while!



    << <i>Boiler78 recalls seeing the Eliasberg 1827 dime in a Regency holder, confirmed at HA archives that describes it being in a "Delux PCGS Holder". Since it was sold in the Eliasberg sale 5/96, this slab must have been produced at least up until May or June 1996. If you have documentation of the start and ending dates, please let me know. >>



    I do not have documentation, but I can confirm that I too saw an Eliasberg coin from the May 1996 auction in a Regency slab (it was the Elephant Token in MS66RB, subsequently reholdered), so these were definitely in use after that 5/96 date.
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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,981 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I had already emailed Conder101 to let him know of some narrowing down of the date ranges, but will add these to this thread, too. Generation 5.0 was used at least as far back as December, 1994 since I have a Type II gold dollar in a 5.0 with a receipt with serial number recorded and dated from December, 1994. Also, Conder101 had listed generation 8, which you call generation 7, as having been in use from January, 1999 through February, 2002; however, I submitted a coin in September, 1998 and received it in October, 1998 in the new blue holder that is know as generation 8 (Conder101) and generation 7 (this thread).

    You may want to think again about renumbering the Conder101 generations since many folks already know them fairly well and the new number scheme may cause additional confusion.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Check the end of the original thread for my notes

    There are gasket changes to a clearish prong then a whitish prong
    The saint on the holo changed to a whitish one then a gray blue one just before the new square one
    The saint color change can be seen in your photos


    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
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    BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,330 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think Conder101 did a great job, however, I also think that in something called "Generations", that it should be done sequentially as released...and not "as discovered".
    Lakes obviously is very involved in this and did a bang-up job...I doubt that this will ever be truly "finished" as things always pop up since, like many things historical, it is looking back rather than keeping track ongoing.

    That all said, you guys are sadists! image
    Too much to try to remember about .x generations....I have enough of a time trying to figure out "rattler" and "doily" image

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

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    Ed62Ed62 Posts: 857 ✭✭
    A great work of scholarship !!!
    Ed
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    MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For additional masochistic activities
    Date of 7 digit to 8 digit cert numbers
    barcode format change

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • Options
    VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 3,841 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I had already emailed Conder101 to let him know of some narrowing down of the date ranges, but will add these to this thread, too. Generation 5.0 was used at least as far back as December, 1994 since I have a Type II gold dollar in a 5.0 with a receipt with serial number recorded and dated from December, 1994. Also, Conder101 had listed generation 8, which you call generation 7, as having been in use from January, 1999 through February, 2002; however, I submitted a coin in September, 1998 and received it in October, 1998 in the new blue holder that is know as generation 8 (Conder101) and generation 7 (this thread).

    You may want to think again about renumbering the Conder101 generations since many folks already know them fairly well and the new number scheme may cause additional confusion. >>



    Thank you Tom and thanks to Conder101 who I see on other forums regularly. image
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    KoveKove Posts: 2,033 ✭✭✭✭
    Nice!
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    pcunixpcunix Posts: 620
    Thanks so much! I forgot to bookmark this last night, so came back this morning to do that.

    I'm especially appreciative of the text detail you have included - very helpful and interesting!
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    TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭
    great thread. thanks.

    Conder:

    Where are ya?
    Frank

    BHNC #203

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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Appreciate the tips - will try and incorporate them once I fully understand them. image

    I didn't realize (or forgot) that people were making suggestions in the original Generations thread - never got past the first page. image Will have to read the whole thing.

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    ldhairldhair Posts: 7,183 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think Conder101 is working on the second edition to his book.
    I'll bet he is on top of new information that gets posted here.
    I hope there are few number changes.

    Thanks Lakesammman. It's great to have something more up to date.
    Larry

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    astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I think Conder101 did a great job, however, I also think that in something called "Generations", that it should be done sequentially as released...and not "as discovered".
    Lakes obviously is very involved in this and did a bang-up job...I doubt that this will ever be truly "finished" as things always pop up since, like many things historical, it is looking back rather than keeping track ongoing.

    That all said, you guys are sadists! image
    Too much to try to remember about .x generations....I have enough of a time trying to figure out "rattler" and "doily" image >>

    The challenge with sequential numbering is once the numbering is set, a discovery of a "new" generation throws everything off. It is illogical to place that new discovery as a decimal between two known generations (e.g. a new generation between 5 and 6 is labeled 5.5 (or whatever)). Such a numbering gives the impression that a 5.5 is "related" to the generation 5.

    I have "discovered" at least a dozen ACG varieties that are in between the current numbered generations and it's unclear how those should be numbered.

    I would love to hear suggestions on how to approach this dilemma.

    Great work, Lakes ...
    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Condor incorporated most of this into a book, which I bought from him. Maybe you can find him here or across the street and see if he still has any or is still keeping up with it or not.
    Doug
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    illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,024 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No R3.5 Retro doily?
    theknowitalltroll;
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    BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭
    Isn't there another type of white Rattler where the dots in the dot matrix printing are separated wider than the later version you posted? IIRC, a member here posted a dime in one of these holders a few months back...
    Lurking and learning since 2010. Full-time professional numismatist.
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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,981 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I think Conder101 did a great job, however, I also think that in something called "Generations", that it should be done sequentially as released...and not "as discovered".
    Lakes obviously is very involved in this and did a bang-up job...I doubt that this will ever be truly "finished" as things always pop up since, like many things historical, it is looking back rather than keeping track ongoing.

    That all said, you guys are sadists! image
    Too much to try to remember about .x generations....I have enough of a time trying to figure out "rattler" and "doily" image >>

    The challenge with sequential numbering is once the numbering is set, a discovery of a "new" generation throws everything off. It is illogical to place that new discovery as a decimal between two known generations (e.g. a new generation between 5 and 6 is labeled 5.5 (or whatever)). Such a numbering gives the impression that a 5.5 is "related" to the generation 5.

    I have "discovered" at least a dozen ACG varieties that are in between the current numbered generations and it's unclear how those should be numbered.

    I would love to hear suggestions on how to approach this dilemma.

    Great work, Lakes ... >>



    You bring up a good point about changing the numbering system or adding decimal generations, which was something I also touched upon earlier. One way to get around this would be to give each known generation a descriptive name and then associate that with a date range. Then, when a generation is discovered and added to the list, it can simply receive its own descriptive name and be placed into the proper place. In this way, generation numbers (what we often use as "descriptive names" now) would not have to be changed.

    The above is analogous to how we have the Sheldon grading scale (generation numbers) and the descriptive grading scale (F, VF, EF, etc...).
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No R3.5 Retro doily?

    Not sure how to handle that one - is it a special promotion for ASE's being done for only a handful of big-time submitters or a true generation, where all coins submitted for a period of time end up in that holder??

    To me it's interesting but not a true generational holder. image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,024 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>No R3.5 Retro doily?

    Not sure how to handle that one - is it a special promotion for ASE's being done for only a handful of big-time submitters or a true generation, where all coins submitted for a period of time end up in that holder??

    To me it's interesting but not a true generational holder. image >>



    I believe it is promotional. I'd call it 3.5a* */asterisk designating promotional
    theknowitalltroll;
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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re-read the preamble to the post - - This is not intended to cover every style of promotional label ever generated by PCGS - that's a project for someone else. image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,024 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Re-read the preamble to the post - - This is not intended to cover every style of promotional label ever generated by PCGS - that's a project for someone else. image >>



    True, but it is a clone of a known and assigned generational label.
    theknowitalltroll;
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    BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,024 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What about first strike?image
    theknowitalltroll;
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    TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,101 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nicely done. Thanks A lot of work there by you and Conder101image
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    orevilleoreville Posts: 11,823 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lakes image

    This must be your reminder for me to get started working with you on the revised PCGS sample slabs numbering system??? image
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
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    DaveGDaveG Posts: 3,535
    Has the "white label" rattler been confirmed as an "actual white label" or is it just a non-stable green label, like the "yellow" OHGs?

    Check out the Southern Gold Society

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    stealerstealer Posts: 3,977 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Has the "white label" rattler been confirmed as an "actual white label" or is it just a non-stable green label, like the "yellow" OHGs? >>


    Yep, they are actually different. Here is another:

    image

    Also BHB, it does have a different dot matrix. I believe that one sported a serial number starting with 1080___ whereas the ones shown here are 1081___. Perhaps different printers used in parallel, but I'm not certain.
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    joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,736 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Wow - this must have taken a while!



    << <i>Boiler78 recalls seeing the Eliasberg 1827 dime in a Regency holder, confirmed at HA archives that describes it being in a "Delux PCGS Holder". Since it was sold in the Eliasberg sale 5/96, this slab must have been produced at least up until May or June 1996. If you have documentation of the start and ending dates, please let me know. >>



    I do not have documentation, but I can confirm that I too saw an Eliasberg coin from the May 1996 auction in a Regency slab (it was the Elephant Token in MS66RB, subsequently reholdered), so these were definitely in use after that 5/96 date. >>



    I was the owner of the eliasberg 1827 dime that was in a regular OGH (no regency). Unless there was more than one from his collection.
    image
    may the fonz be with you...always...
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    MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Modern" Gasket versions (modern as in I've do no comparisons further back than these 3... e.g. a rattler would look different.)

    all Secure Holders


    PS: on a tragic note -- I made all 3 myself, so fakes they ain't



    Ring

    imageimage




    First Gen Clear-ish Prong Gasket

    imageimage




    Next Gen White-ish Prong Gasket

    imageimage



    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The dime referred to was the 1827/5 MS66 Ex. Eliasberg.

    Link to HA description
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    How can I keep my wife from finding out what I just bought?
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    I have a piece that doesn't seem to fit into the categories presented for generation 1.0 rattlers.
    The reverse label printing is not neat: there are gaps in the lines, portions of the lettering is missing as well.
    The front label color is wrong for very first issue (light BLUE) , but the serial number is OK.(1088349)

    Please advise how this fits into the scheme.


    Looks like I need a lesson on attaching .jpg files to the thread. I have the file uploaded in an upload box on Google Chrome.
    hmmm. Might be time to read the directions.


    How can I keep my wife from finding out what I just bought?
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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
    magicsteve - looking forward to seeing a picture.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    image
    image

    Sorry, Lakesammman. I am trying to find out how to post the images.
    no success yet.


    How can I keep my wife from finding out what I just bought?
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    imageimage



    this is the best I can do at the moment. The photo URL is saved within the image icon on the left of this reply. Please copy the URL and
    paste it to the address bar on your browser. Hopefully, you will have access to the image on Photobucket. Please let me know.


    Alternatively, send me an address where I can email or text/multimedia you the images. I am: steve@bromfield.tv
    How can I keep my wife from finding out what I just bought?
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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've combined your pics into one - the first picture here, the second from the generations thread. I'm not seeing any real difference. The color can vary depending on the white balance of the camera and the storage condition of the slab. When looking through my photo's, some look more blue than green.

    Anyone else want to chime in?? image

    image

    image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Magicsteve - attaching doesn't work so well

    It is better to use an image hosting service and the IMG code method of posting pictures

    Try tinypic.com

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
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    I will have the piece in a few days, I shall advise. THe blue in the purchase pictures is definitely rather blu-er than the post I see.

    I don't know which is correct. So I trust you consider this a normal Gen 1.0 piece?
    How can I keep my wife from finding out what I just bought?
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    MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The white balance is off on the bottom pictures.

    Also if there is some color variation, it is ok.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
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    CocoinutCocoinut Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have a group of 30 coins submitted and received at PCGS on 8/14/12 and shipped at various dates between 8/30/12 and 9/19/12 that don't seem to match any of the descriptions shown so far. They have prongs holding the coins in place. NO bar code on the reverse, and no gap between the ":" and the "C" on the hologram. The Saint Gaudens on the hologram is either whitish or gray (I'm colorblind). Here is a sample:

    imageimage

    Given the dates received and shipped, they are probably late Generation 10.

    Edited to add: The labels are a solid color, not fading from blue to white.

    Jim
    Countdown to completion of my Mercury Set: 2 coins. My growing Lincoln Set: Finally completed!
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    bob48bob48 Posts: 454 ✭✭✭
    Here are a couple of David Halls coins that I just bought and the serial numbers both start with 105xxxx Maybe this is one reason that PCGS started with 108xxxx serial numbers on the rattlers.

    I like how he made the holder for the long term. The coins are inside a clear holder that are the size of the coin and sealed inside a 2.5 x 2.5 flip. I was at first worried that the flexible flip would leave the PVC on the coin but he made sure that that would not happen.

    image


    image
    Bob

    *
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    BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭
    Isn't there an earlier PCGS Rattler w/ a white label than the one you listed?

    IIRC, a member posted a thread of a one holding a Mercury dime proof a couple of years ago.
    Lurking and learning since 2010. Full-time professional numismatist.
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    valente151valente151 Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Isn't there an earlier PCGS Rattler w/ a white label than the one you listed?

    IIRC, a member posted a thread of a one holding a Mercury dime proof a couple of years ago. >>



    The white label is listed in this generation update and photographed as PCGS 1.0...
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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have a group of 30 coins submitted and received at PCGS on 8/14/12 and shipped at various dates between 8/30/12 and 9/19/12 that don't seem to match any of the descriptions shown so far. They have prongs holding the coins in place. NO bar code on the reverse, and no gap between the ":" and the "C" on the hologram. The Saint Gaudens on the hologram is either whitish or gray (I'm colorblind). Here is a sample:

    Missed that post - it's listed as 9.1.

    Here are a couple of David Halls coins that I just bought and the serial numbers both start with 105xxxx Maybe this is one reason that PCGS started with 108xxxx serial numbers on the rattlers.

    Maybe so - I decided to not put them in the generations thread since they weren't a product of PCGS. Some have no serial number, others I've seen start as high as 300........ Not sure it has any relationship to the rattler 108........, although it could have evolved over time as I've seen them start 104, 105 and 107 as well.

    Isn't there an earlier PCGS Rattler w/ a white label than the one you listed?

    If there's a different white rattler style than the one I've shown, would love to see it.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In reviewing the various white rattlers, I think they are one generation but the printer was slightly different. The earliest ones have a coarser dot matrix.

    The earliest I have is 1080337 and the dots making up the numbers/letters are coarser than the latest one I have, 1081939. Everything else is the same.

    Have a P65 Merc that was likely the same submission as Valente's - 1080729 - CAC gold, but w/o the beautiful color his has.

    I've seen this variation on other generations as well. I imagine they have more than one printer and they all perform slightly differently. image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Having been in IT in those days, that was very common.

    Most sales in those days were to large corporations through standardized purchasing groups who were accustomed to ordering the same part number for years or decades. The industrial PC suppliers weren't going to go through the trouble of qualifying the machine every time they sourced a part from a different manufacturer. What that meant for the buyer was that you would order the "same" machine two weeks later and get a version with slightly different firmware, a different chipset, etc. From an industrial perspective they were all thought to be the same, so it didn't matter.

    But it did...

    We placed a large (for the time - 1985 IIRC) order for 8 identical PCs after testing one to make sure it would run the necessary software. We received the 8 'identical' PCs only to find out that there were 3 different BIOS revisions across the 8 machines and only ONE of them would run MicroFocus COBOL. Back 5 of them went and the new order for 2 additional PCs specified the BIOS Rev too.

    So, it's quite likely that as PCGS' business grew, they ordered a second 'identical' printer and received one with a new and improved font.
    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
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    MattTheRileyMattTheRiley Posts: 806 ✭✭✭✭

    Can I get some help identifying this generation of slab? It looks to fall between 10.3 and 11.

    Missing the two dots and the green hologram, but still has the PCGS printing on the back of the label.




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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,335 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MattTheRiley - very interesting holder, not a generation but a transitional slab using components of an older generation with those of the upcoming generation. Maybe the Dupont hologram wasn't in stock yet so they went with it??

    Thanks for posting it!

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    MattTheRileyMattTheRiley Posts: 806 ✭✭✭✭

    @Lakesammman said:
    MattTheRiley - very interesting holder, not a generation but a transitional slab using components of an older generation with those of the upcoming generation. Maybe the Dupont hologram wasn't in stock yet so they went with it??

    Thanks for posting it!

    Thanks for the reply!

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