<< <i>If I can get these any time I want them from the vendor at $x per, then what exactly is my motivation to pay you the same exact amount? You aren't a "vendor" and you came to me; I never placed an order...so "common sense" would dictate that a) I likely don't need them and certainly b)unless I am supplied with some incentive to purchase them I'll likely pass, particularly in the monster box example. They tie up significant cash flow for very little gain. >>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there some amount of risk in buying from walk-up sellers that is not present when buying from a known vendor? Maybe the items in question are stolen and the police show up to recover them? Or the items are not legitimately as described? Aren't some dealers required by law to keep records of purchases that is more time consuming than just writing a check to a distributor? How much time a year does the typical B&M dealer spend on records like that? I imagine that gets factored into buy prices, doesn't it?
I would not expect a dealer to give me the same price on a monster box of ASE that he could buy them thru his regular supplier. If he was willing to do that, why would he not already have them in stock from his regular supplier. The only incentive in buying mine would be for him to make an additional profit.
<< <i>I would not expect a dealer to give me the same price on a monster box of ASE that he could buy them thru his regular supplier. If he was willing to do that, why would he not already have them in stock from his regular supplier. The only incentive in buying mine would be for him to make an additional profit. >>
Well maybe he just happened to be out or nearly out of stock and was planning on placing an order anyway. The whole situation would be a fortuitous one where something someone needed just happened to walk in the door. Of course the dealer is free to play or pass. A big incentive would be not having to face the risk of price changes while waiting for your order to be delivered.
<< <i>It just defies common sense that walkin traffic gets one price while "mail order" vendors get a different price.
it only defies common sense if you want it to, it makes perfect sense to me. to use the example you put forth, 1.)the walk-in customer has asked for an offer on an item from a dealer and 2.)the dealer has placed an order with a vendor. one is retail while the other is wholesale dealer-to-dealer, why would you expect the prices to be the same?? >>
By ordering from a vendor, he has established a price he is WILLING to pay. My coins are worth the same. Would it matter if I walked in and said that that I will sell these for what the big bullion houses are asking? I suppose that you can twist semantics around and say that asking how much will you give somehow makes them worth one price and how much do you want makes them worth another price. >>
What defies common sense is the notion that dealers are somehow all obligated to pay or sell at the exact same amount to everyone regardless of the situation.
If I can get these any time I want them from the vendor at $x per, then what exactly is my motivation to pay you the same exact amount? You aren't a "vendor" and you came to me; I never placed an order...so "common sense" would dictate that a) I likely don't need them and certainly b)unless I am supplied with some incentive to purchase them I'll likely pass, particularly in the monster box example. They tie up significant cash flow for very little gain.
And using that same ASE box example... assuming I had said box, undoubtedly someone else will want to buy ASE at that same wholesale price, proudly crowing about how "I know what you guys pay from the vendor so you ain't gettin' rich off of me"...of course, their demand for wholesale prices is based on their potential wholesale purchase of perhaps, say, three pieces...
I do so enjoy these dealer-bashing threads, particularly the comments from all the experts on what amounts dealers will sell at and/or should pay for something. Do please continue. >>
So what if you happened to need them? How would someone else necessarily know that you bought them from me and for how much and expect you to sell to them for the same price? What makes you think that this is necessarily dealer bashing? I was just asking why item A from source A is not worth the same as item A from source B.
<< <i>If I can get these any time I want them from the vendor at $x per, then what exactly is my motivation to pay you the same exact amount? You aren't a "vendor" and you came to me; I never placed an order...so "common sense" would dictate that a) I likely don't need them and certainly b)unless I am supplied with some incentive to purchase them I'll likely pass, particularly in the monster box example. They tie up significant cash flow for very little gain. >>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there some amount of risk in buying from walk-up sellers that is not present when buying from a known vendor? Maybe the items in question are stolen and the police show up to recover them? Or the items are not legitimately as described? Aren't some dealers required by law to keep records of purchases that is more time consuming than just writing a check to a distributor? How much time a year does the typical B&M dealer spend on records like that? I imagine that gets factored into buy prices, doesn't it? >>
I would be happy to provide a copy of my purchase order AND picture ID if asked.
<< <i>I would be happy to provide a copy of my purchase order AND picture ID if asked. >>
In many places, it doesn't matter whether you're happy to or not- at least as far as the picture id part. If you want to sell, you don't have a choice. And it doesn't change the fact that not everybody who sells stuff to a coin shop can be depended on to present a legitimate id so even if you're the most honest and upstanding guy in the world, there's no way for the dealer to know that.
<< <i>I would be happy to provide a copy of my purchase order AND picture ID if asked. >>
In many places, it doesn't matter whether you're happy to or not- at least as far as the picture id part. If you want to sell, you don't have a choice. And it doesn't change the fact that not everybody who sells stuff to a coin shop can be depended on to present a legitimate id so even if you're the most honest and upstanding guy in the world, there's no way for the dealer to know that. >>
Well the whole thing was something of a hypothetical chit stirring just to see what response I'd get.
<< <i>So what if you happened to need them? How would someone else necessarily know that you bought them from me and for how much and expect you to sell to them for the same price? >>
No one would know where I got them; my statement was speaking generally about those who want to buy at wholesale prices but don't want to buy a wholesale quantity. It was a side point.
If I happened to need them, i.e., I did not have any and had a ready home for them- then I would pay more, but that said...as mrpotatoheadd pointed out, there are more hassles involved with an OTC buy. First off, I have to hold the stuff 14 days before I can do anything with it per ordinance...so unless I'm buying it for at least some nominally lower amount to, if nothing else, take protection against possible market changes while it sits there... then I'd just pass, get it from my vendor (I have a primary distributor an hour away) and be able to sell it same day. There isn't that much margin to warrant tying up money a couple weeks, unless I can buy them cheaper. Period.
<< <i>So what if you happened to need them? How would someone else necessarily know that you bought them from me and for how much and expect you to sell to them for the same price? >>
No one would know where I got them; my statement was speaking generally about those who want to buy at wholesale prices but don't want to buy a wholesale quantity. It was a side point.
If I happened to need them, i.e., I did not have any and had a ready home for them- then I would pay more, but that said...as mrpotatoheadd pointed out, there are more hassles involved with an OTC buy. First off, I have to hold the stuff 14 days before I can do anything with it per ordinance...so unless I'm buying it for at least some nominally lower amount to, if nothing else, take protection against possible market changes while it sits there... then I'd just pass, get it from my vendor (I have a primary distributor an hour away) and be able to sell it same day. There isn't that much margin to warrant tying up money a couple weeks, unless I can buy them cheaper. Period. >>
Thank God we don't have to put up with those silly ordinances here, YET! I see where you're coming from there.
me and BAJJER have done some PM'ing about this thread over the past few days and I told him I'd answer a question he posed to me, the thread seems the best place.
I believe many/most collectors have a negative view of dealers based on things that happen either early in their Hobby-life or during one of the first times when they attempt to sell to a dealer. the experience sours them and they hold that feeling of resentment rather than make an effort to better understand the dynamics of the dealer/collector interaction. this isn't to say that collectors don't get screwed by dealers or that there aren't some really rotten apples out there, it happens and there are some bad dealers. the prevailing opinion which has dominated this thread that most dealers cheat/lie/steal just isn't accurate or fair minded. I wonder how lurkers and newbies "read" a thread like this and how it affects their future in the Hobby. does anyone care about stuff like that??
as always seems to be the case, truth tends to be stranger than fiction and accident/coincidence tends to rule the Universe. BAJJER had his hypothetical "Monster Box" encounter, let my share what happened late this afternoon. and remember, I'm not a dealer, I'm just a collector like most of you guys who has the good fortune to be able to work in the Hobby. here's what happened: ----my boss calls me to take care of a guy who has some Proof/Mint Sets to sell. he pulls them out and wants to start with the Proof Sets so I look them over and arrange them by date so I can inventory/price them. when I'm done I give him the price and he pulls out a sheet of paper with HIS pricing on it and he tells me my offer is only 50% of what he has. I tear off my calculator tape to show him and explain what I've done and show him the GreySheet I was using. I figured bid less 25% which is typical, Proof/Mint Sets are dead and the best we can do is wholesale at bid less 10%. additionally, some of the Sets had no boxes so we can't sell them till we get boxes.
as we're talking I ask him where he got HIS prices from and he says the RedBook. to top it off, he's using a 2012 edition!!! we talk a little more because it's clear he thinks he's getting hosed. I take his figure and my figure, add them together and divide by two which gives me a price that is greater than bid. I explain to him that I can't even sell them at that price since we sell at bid. he seems to understand so he pulls out the rest of the stuff, a group of Mint Sets. I see that in the group are some Proof Sets so we talk about that and he realizes the difference. as I'm going through the Sets I come to a 1996 which has no "W Dime" inside and again he seems confused so I go to our stock to get a Set with the dime. he grins a little and says he got "taken" when he bought the Set but understands we won't buy it without that coin.
we finally finish. we talk, I pay him and he seems comfortable with what's taken place. he comes around to the main counter and we joke with a few other guys who have been waiting, he buys some stuff, we shake hands and he tells me he'll be back later in the week for some items I'll try to locate for him. from my perspective I think he was treated fairly, understands more than he did before he arrived and should be a collector we'll see again.
<< <i>me and BAJJER have done some PM'ing about this thread over the past few days and I told him I'd answer a question he posed to me, the thread seems the best place.
I believe many/most collectors have a negative view of dealers based on things that happen either early in their Hobby-life or during one of the first times when they attempt to sell to a dealer. the experience sours them and they hold that feeling of resentment rather than make an effort to better understand the dynamics of the dealer/collector interaction. this isn't to say that collectors don't get screwed by dealers or that there aren't some really rotten apples out there, it happens and there are some bad dealers. the prevailing opinion which has dominated this thread that most dealers cheat/lie/steal just isn't accurate or fair minded. I wonder how lurkers and newbies "read" a thread like this and how it affects their future in the Hobby. does anyone care about stuff like that??
as always seems to be the case, truth tends to be stranger than fiction and accident/coincidence tends to rule the Universe. BAJJER had his hypothetical "Monster Box" encounter, let my share what happened late this afternoon. and remember, I'm not a dealer, I'm just a collector like most of you guys who has the good fortune to be able to work in the Hobby. here's what happened: ----my boss calls me to take care of a guy who has some Proof/Mint Sets to sell. he pulls them out and wants to start with the Proof Sets so I look them over and arrange them by date so I can inventory/price them. when I'm done I give him the price and he pulls out a sheet of paper with HIS pricing on it and he tells me my offer is only 50% of what he has. I tear off my calculator tape to show him and explain what I've done and show him the GreySheet I was using. I figured bid less 25% which is typical, Proof/Mint Sets are dead and the best we can do is wholesale at bid less 10%. additionally, some of the Sets had no boxes so we can't sell them till we get boxes.
as we're talking I ask him where he got HIS prices from and he says the RedBook. to top it off, he's using a 2012 edition!!! we talk a little more because it's clear he thinks he's getting hosed. I take his figure and my figure, add them together and divide by two which gives me a price that is greater than bid. I explain to him that I can't even sell them at that price since we sell at bid. he seems to understand so he pulls out the rest of the stuff, a group of Mint Sets. I see that in the group are some Proof Sets so we talk about that and he realizes the difference. as I'm going through the Sets I come to a 1996 which has no "W Dime" inside and again he seems confused so I go to our stock to get a Set with the dime. he grins a little and says he got "taken" when he bought the Set but understands we won't buy it without that coin.
we finally finish. we talk, I pay him and he seems comfortable with what's taken place. he comes around to the main counter and we joke with a few other guys who have been waiting, he buys some stuff, we shake hands and he tells me he'll be back later in the week for some items I'll try to locate for him. from my perspective I think he was treated fairly, understands more than he did before he arrived and should be a collector we'll see again.
feel free to judge me as you will, I'm sure. >>
There are a few differences between your seller and my hypothetical. First off, I wouldn't view that person as a knowledgeable seller, tho he is a cut above the one who walks in with just gramps' old coins. Secondly, mostly what he has are stale coins some of which may have value. In my case, I'd have current issue stuff which dealers around the country are buying everyday from the APMEX's and like outfits and reselling for a profit. My starting point for asking price would be competitive/identical with those places or at least the place he regularly buys from. I figure they are worth that much regardless of my affiliation. It would a very serendipitous situation if it ever happened, considering all the things that would have to fall into place. Of course another factor would be that I'd need to get more than I paid for them.
you sort of miss the point which is "spread" and how it works, right??
the comparison is between something that happens as a matter of routine and a made up scenario that I presume rarely happens. besides, you are just arguing a point for amusement while I'm trying to be helpful.
<< <i>you sort of miss the point which is "spread" and how it works, right??
>>
Not really. If you can't make the spread work for you at my price, you probably wouldn't buy them, so no deal. Or I might be willing to maybe wiggle a little, you just never know. So it would have work for me too. Anyways, time to stick a fork into it.
If you are talking the spread/margin on the proof/mint sets, I got that completely.
I have never been a pro dealer cheerleader on these forums, that said I have a great buying relationship with one local B&M. I hear what he offers to pay for items that others bring in the store and it is not pretty. Greysheet leads some to believe that dealers work on a 10 percent spread.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>Greysheet leads some to believe that dealers work on a 10 percent spread. >>
If one could profitably work on a 10 percent spread and currently, existing dealers work on a larger spread than that, wouldn't that indicate that there is a window of opportunity for opening a coin shop and taking away the business going to existing dealers by paying more for what you buy?
There have been many threads on this forum talking about dying B&Ms, and other threads, talking about what a goldmine a B&M is. How, exactly, does that work? It's truly a mystery.
<< <i>I have been hosed by dealers before I knew better. Now that I know more, and who I can trust, I've done better. There are only two dealers in my area that I trust enough to sell to. They generally pay 10% back of Greysheet bid and sell (to me anyways) at GS ask. I've done considerable business with several others and we can leave it at that. There are some trustworthy folks out there... Just got to find them. >>
Who? >>
They are shops that I've done considerable volumes of business with over the years and have built up this arrangement through trust and volume. There are three shops actually and for the most part, i really avoid selling as much as i can these days. I did pay some dues early on before our business relationship has evolved to this point. I'd rather not list all of them publically though I will mention that for many years, and before I knew squat! Mike at Rare Coin Galleries in Issaquah treated me fairly and honestly during a time when I was very green and had been ripped by other Seattle dealers which will remain nameless. Back when they were in downtown Seattle, he was always very fair in his purchasing and grading. And, unlike most, didn't constantly throw out slights and insults of my Morgan and Peace rolls as he looked through them.... "Dipped, hairlines, sliders" etc.... Don't want to get into a dealer bash here, but there are some that would say that no matter how nice a roll I was presenting them.
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
<< <i>I'd like to hear PerryHall's take on this issue. >>
I have no problem with dealers making a fair profit but when they take advantage of people who are not knowledgeable about coins (the proverbial widow who inherits her late husband's collection of high value coins for example) I think it's wrong. I've been accused of dealer bashing but not every dealer is scrupulously honest and it's naïve to think otherwise. I know several honest trustworthy dealers including several that post here but I know others that'll take the gold from your teeth if they thought they could get away with it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I know we all realize that you wont get "collector" prices when walking into a dealer. Saying "but on ebay its trading at..." is not going to help... and is usually met with "then sell it on ebay"
Greysheet is only a guide. Most wont pay full bid - and it varies by type of coin.
For instance, common proof and mint sets routinely bring about 72% on the wholesale buy side. If that's what the "dealer" gets, what do you think you are going to get? Probably 60% or less. Get ready to see lots of these, $2 bills, dateless Buffalo nickels, and corroded Indian cents.
Most dealers are attempting to work on a 10% margin - this is after all expenses. The cost of rent, utilities, etc, and not accounting for their time. For most, this means a 25-35% margin before expenses. Holding periods also impact the dealer and introduce another element of risk. So, if you are working at 65% - you might have a sustainable business. Obviously, the big, high volume shops can work on less and be successful - i'm talking about your average Joe in Podunk, wherever; that has average foot traffic and attends local shows.
The truth of the matter is - you don't work for "nothing" and neither do they.
Most on this forum are very educated as to what they have and what it will bring, and most likely you wont get that from a dealer - so sell to another collector on your own!!!! Although I must say, even trying to make a deal on the Buy/Sell forum here is like pulling teeth - time to take off the rose colored glasses and ask reasonable price for your coins.
time to take off the rose colored glasses and ask reasonable price for your coins.
this is an interesting point insomuch as we always hear about dealers who buy low but not much is said about those that sell high. I won't say anything about your BST reference other than it seems pretty accurate where some sellers there are concerned, prices seem exhorbitantly high. some of the BST sellers link their eBay "auctions" which can run for months with continual TTT's. why is nothing ever said about that?? isn't that just the same thing at the other end of pay-scale??
A shop I frequent mainly to pick up bullion coins and supplies: They buy certified coins at bluesheet. They sell certified coins usually between CDN Ask + 10% and CW Trends.
Comments
<< <i>If I can get these any time I want them from the vendor at $x per, then what exactly is my motivation to pay you the same exact amount? You aren't a "vendor" and you came to me; I never placed an order...so "common sense" would dictate that a) I likely don't need them and certainly b)unless I am supplied with some incentive to purchase them I'll likely pass, particularly in the monster box example. They tie up significant cash flow for very little gain. >>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there some amount of risk in buying from walk-up sellers that is not present when buying from a known vendor? Maybe the items in question are stolen and the police show up to recover them? Or the items are not legitimately as described? Aren't some dealers required by law to keep records of purchases that is more time consuming than just writing a check to a distributor? How much time a year does the typical B&M dealer spend on records like that? I imagine that gets factored into buy prices, doesn't it?
<< <i>I would not expect a dealer to give me the same price on a monster box of ASE that he could buy them thru his regular supplier. If he was willing to do that, why would he not already have them in stock from his regular supplier. The only incentive in buying mine would be for him to make an additional profit. >>
Well maybe he just happened to be out or nearly out of stock and was planning on placing an order anyway. The whole situation would be a fortuitous one where something someone needed just happened to walk in the door. Of course the dealer is free to play or pass. A big incentive would be not having to face the risk of price changes while waiting for your order to be delivered.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It just defies common sense that walkin traffic gets one price while "mail order" vendors get a different price.
it only defies common sense if you want it to, it makes perfect sense to me. to use the example you put forth, 1.)the walk-in customer has asked for an offer on an item from a dealer and 2.)the dealer has placed an order with a vendor. one is retail while the other is wholesale dealer-to-dealer, why would you expect the prices to be the same?? >>
By ordering from a vendor, he has established a price he is WILLING to pay. My coins are worth the same. Would it matter if I walked in and said that that I will sell these for what the big bullion houses are asking? I suppose that you can twist semantics around and say that asking how much will you give somehow makes them worth one price and how much do you want makes them worth another price. >>
What defies common sense is the notion that dealers are somehow all obligated to pay or sell at the exact same amount to everyone regardless of the situation.
If I can get these any time I want them from the vendor at $x per, then what exactly is my motivation to pay you the same exact amount? You aren't a "vendor" and you came to me; I never placed an order...so "common sense" would dictate that a) I likely don't need them and certainly b)unless I am supplied with some incentive to purchase them I'll likely pass, particularly in the monster box example. They tie up significant cash flow for very little gain.
And using that same ASE box example... assuming I had said box, undoubtedly someone else will want to buy ASE at that same wholesale price, proudly crowing about how "I know what you guys pay from the vendor so you ain't gettin' rich off of me"...of course, their demand for wholesale prices is based on their potential wholesale purchase of perhaps, say, three pieces...
I do so enjoy these dealer-bashing threads, particularly the comments from all the experts on what amounts dealers will sell at and/or should pay for something. Do please continue. >>
So what if you happened to need them? How would someone else necessarily know that you bought them from me and for how much and expect you to sell to them for the same price? What makes you think that this is necessarily dealer bashing? I was just asking why item A from source A is not worth the same as item A from source B.
<< <i>
<< <i>If I can get these any time I want them from the vendor at $x per, then what exactly is my motivation to pay you the same exact amount? You aren't a "vendor" and you came to me; I never placed an order...so "common sense" would dictate that a) I likely don't need them and certainly b)unless I am supplied with some incentive to purchase them I'll likely pass, particularly in the monster box example. They tie up significant cash flow for very little gain. >>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there some amount of risk in buying from walk-up sellers that is not present when buying from a known vendor? Maybe the items in question are stolen and the police show up to recover them? Or the items are not legitimately as described? Aren't some dealers required by law to keep records of purchases that is more time consuming than just writing a check to a distributor? How much time a year does the typical B&M dealer spend on records like that? I imagine that gets factored into buy prices, doesn't it? >>
I would be happy to provide a copy of my purchase order AND picture ID if asked.
<< <i>I would be happy to provide a copy of my purchase order AND picture ID if asked. >>
In many places, it doesn't matter whether you're happy to or not- at least as far as the picture id part. If you want to sell, you don't have a choice. And it doesn't change the fact that not everybody who sells stuff to a coin shop can be depended on to present a legitimate id so even if you're the most honest and upstanding guy in the world, there's no way for the dealer to know that.
<< <i>
<< <i>I would be happy to provide a copy of my purchase order AND picture ID if asked. >>
In many places, it doesn't matter whether you're happy to or not- at least as far as the picture id part. If you want to sell, you don't have a choice. And it doesn't change the fact that not everybody who sells stuff to a coin shop can be depended on to present a legitimate id so even if you're the most honest and upstanding guy in the world, there's no way for the dealer to know that. >>
Well the whole thing was something of a hypothetical chit stirring just to see what response I'd get.
<< <i>Well the whole thing was something of a hypothetical chit stirring just to see what response I'd get.
It's always helpful to know which posters are really interested in answers to their questions and who is just trolling. Thanks for the heads up.
<< <i>So what if you happened to need them? How would someone else necessarily know that you bought them from me and for how much and expect you to sell to them for the same price? >>
No one would know where I got them; my statement was speaking generally about those who want to buy at wholesale prices but don't want to buy a wholesale quantity. It was a side point.
If I happened to need them, i.e., I did not have any and had a ready home for them- then I would pay more, but that said...as mrpotatoheadd pointed out, there are more hassles involved with an OTC buy. First off, I have to hold the stuff 14 days before I can do anything with it per ordinance...so unless I'm buying it for at least some nominally lower amount to, if nothing else, take protection against possible market changes while it sits there... then I'd just pass, get it from my vendor (I have a primary distributor an hour away) and be able to sell it same day. There isn't that much margin to warrant tying up money a couple weeks, unless I can buy them cheaper. Period.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
<< <i>So what if you happened to need them? How would someone else necessarily know that you bought them from me and for how much and expect you to sell to them for the same price? >>
No one would know where I got them; my statement was speaking generally about those who want to buy at wholesale prices but don't want to buy a wholesale quantity. It was a side point.
If I happened to need them, i.e., I did not have any and had a ready home for them- then I would pay more, but that said...as mrpotatoheadd pointed out, there are more hassles involved with an OTC buy. First off, I have to hold the stuff 14 days before I can do anything with it per ordinance...so unless I'm buying it for at least some nominally lower amount to, if nothing else, take protection against possible market changes while it sits there... then I'd just pass, get it from my vendor (I have a primary distributor an hour away) and be able to sell it same day. There isn't that much margin to warrant tying up money a couple weeks, unless I can buy them cheaper. Period. >>
Thank God we don't have to put up with those silly ordinances here, YET! I see where you're coming from there.
I believe many/most collectors have a negative view of dealers based on things that happen either early in their Hobby-life or during one of the first times when they attempt to sell to a dealer. the experience sours them and they hold that feeling of resentment rather than make an effort to better understand the dynamics of the dealer/collector interaction. this isn't to say that collectors don't get screwed by dealers or that there aren't some really rotten apples out there, it happens and there are some bad dealers. the prevailing opinion which has dominated this thread that most dealers cheat/lie/steal just isn't accurate or fair minded. I wonder how lurkers and newbies "read" a thread like this and how it affects their future in the Hobby. does anyone care about stuff like that??
as always seems to be the case, truth tends to be stranger than fiction and accident/coincidence tends to rule the Universe. BAJJER had his hypothetical "Monster Box" encounter, let my share what happened late this afternoon. and remember, I'm not a dealer, I'm just a collector like most of you guys who has the good fortune to be able to work in the Hobby. here's what happened:
----my boss calls me to take care of a guy who has some Proof/Mint Sets to sell. he pulls them out and wants to start with the Proof Sets so I look them over and arrange them by date so I can inventory/price them. when I'm done I give him the price and he pulls out a sheet of paper with HIS pricing on it and he tells me my offer is only 50% of what he has. I tear off my calculator tape to show him and explain what I've done and show him the GreySheet I was using. I figured bid less 25% which is typical, Proof/Mint Sets are dead and the best we can do is wholesale at bid less 10%. additionally, some of the Sets had no boxes so we can't sell them till we get boxes.
as we're talking I ask him where he got HIS prices from and he says the RedBook. to top it off, he's using a 2012 edition!!!
we finally finish. we talk, I pay him and he seems comfortable with what's taken place. he comes around to the main counter and we joke with a few other guys who have been waiting, he buys some stuff, we shake hands and he tells me he'll be back later in the week for some items I'll try to locate for him. from my perspective I think he was treated fairly, understands more than he did before he arrived and should be a collector we'll see again.
feel free to judge me as you will, I'm sure.
<< <i>me and BAJJER have done some PM'ing about this thread over the past few days and I told him I'd answer a question he posed to me, the thread seems the best place.
I believe many/most collectors have a negative view of dealers based on things that happen either early in their Hobby-life or during one of the first times when they attempt to sell to a dealer. the experience sours them and they hold that feeling of resentment rather than make an effort to better understand the dynamics of the dealer/collector interaction. this isn't to say that collectors don't get screwed by dealers or that there aren't some really rotten apples out there, it happens and there are some bad dealers. the prevailing opinion which has dominated this thread that most dealers cheat/lie/steal just isn't accurate or fair minded. I wonder how lurkers and newbies "read" a thread like this and how it affects their future in the Hobby. does anyone care about stuff like that??
as always seems to be the case, truth tends to be stranger than fiction and accident/coincidence tends to rule the Universe. BAJJER had his hypothetical "Monster Box" encounter, let my share what happened late this afternoon. and remember, I'm not a dealer, I'm just a collector like most of you guys who has the good fortune to be able to work in the Hobby. here's what happened:
----my boss calls me to take care of a guy who has some Proof/Mint Sets to sell. he pulls them out and wants to start with the Proof Sets so I look them over and arrange them by date so I can inventory/price them. when I'm done I give him the price and he pulls out a sheet of paper with HIS pricing on it and he tells me my offer is only 50% of what he has. I tear off my calculator tape to show him and explain what I've done and show him the GreySheet I was using. I figured bid less 25% which is typical, Proof/Mint Sets are dead and the best we can do is wholesale at bid less 10%. additionally, some of the Sets had no boxes so we can't sell them till we get boxes.
as we're talking I ask him where he got HIS prices from and he says the RedBook. to top it off, he's using a 2012 edition!!!
we finally finish. we talk, I pay him and he seems comfortable with what's taken place. he comes around to the main counter and we joke with a few other guys who have been waiting, he buys some stuff, we shake hands and he tells me he'll be back later in the week for some items I'll try to locate for him. from my perspective I think he was treated fairly, understands more than he did before he arrived and should be a collector we'll see again.
feel free to judge me as you will, I'm sure.
There are a few differences between your seller and my hypothetical. First off, I wouldn't view that person as a knowledgeable seller, tho he is a cut above the one who walks in with just gramps' old coins. Secondly, mostly what he has are stale coins some of which may have value. In my case, I'd have current issue stuff which dealers around the country are buying everyday from the APMEX's and like outfits and reselling for a profit. My starting point for asking price would be competitive/identical with those places or at least the place he regularly buys from. I figure they are worth that much regardless of my affiliation. It would a very serendipitous situation if it ever happened, considering all the things that would have to fall into place. Of course another factor would be that I'd need to get more than I paid for them.
the comparison is between something that happens as a matter of routine and a made up scenario that I presume rarely happens. besides, you are just arguing a point for amusement while I'm trying to be helpful.
<< <i>you sort of miss the point which is "spread" and how it works, right??
>>
Not really. If you can't make the spread work for you at my price, you probably wouldn't buy them, so no deal. Or I might be willing to maybe wiggle a little, you just never know. So it would have work for me too. Anyways, time to stick a fork into it.
If you are talking the spread/margin on the proof/mint sets, I got that completely.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Greysheet leads some to believe that dealers work on a 10 percent spread. >>
If one could profitably work on a 10 percent spread and currently, existing dealers work on a larger spread than that, wouldn't that indicate that there is a window of opportunity for opening a coin shop and taking away the business going to existing dealers by paying more for what you buy?
There have been many threads on this forum talking about dying B&Ms, and other threads, talking about what a goldmine a B&M is. How, exactly, does that work? It's truly a mystery.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have been hosed by dealers before I knew better.
Now that I know more, and who I can trust, I've done better.
There are only two dealers in my area that I trust enough to sell to.
They generally pay 10% back of Greysheet bid and sell (to me anyways) at GS ask.
I've done considerable business with several others and we can leave it at that.
There are some trustworthy folks out there... Just got to find them. >>
Who?
They are shops that I've done considerable volumes of business with over the years and have built up this arrangement through trust and volume.
There are three shops actually and for the most part, i really avoid selling as much as i can these days. I did pay some dues early on before our business relationship has evolved to this point. I'd rather not list all of them publically though I will mention that for many years, and before I knew squat! Mike at Rare Coin Galleries in Issaquah treated me fairly and honestly during a time when I was very green and had been ripped by other Seattle dealers which will remain nameless. Back when they were in downtown Seattle, he was always very fair in his purchasing and grading. And, unlike most, didn't constantly throw out slights and insults of my Morgan and Peace rolls as he looked through them....
"Dipped, hairlines, sliders" etc.... Don't want to get into a dealer bash here, but there are some that would say that no matter how nice a roll I was presenting them.
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
<< <i>I'd like to hear PerryHall's take on this issue.
I have no problem with dealers making a fair profit but when they take advantage of people who are not knowledgeable about coins (the proverbial widow who inherits her late husband's collection of high value coins for example) I think it's wrong. I've been accused of dealer bashing but not every dealer is scrupulously honest and it's naïve to think otherwise. I know several honest trustworthy dealers including several that post here but I know others that'll take the gold from your teeth if they thought they could get away with it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Greysheet is only a guide. Most wont pay full bid - and it varies by type of coin.
For instance, common proof and mint sets routinely bring about 72% on the wholesale buy side. If that's what the "dealer" gets, what do you think you are going to get? Probably 60% or less. Get ready to see lots of these, $2 bills, dateless Buffalo nickels, and corroded Indian cents.
Most dealers are attempting to work on a 10% margin - this is after all expenses. The cost of rent, utilities, etc, and not accounting for their time. For most, this means a 25-35% margin before expenses. Holding periods also impact the dealer and introduce another element of risk. So, if you are working at 65% - you might have a sustainable business. Obviously, the big, high volume shops can work on less and be successful - i'm talking about your average Joe in Podunk, wherever; that has average foot traffic and attends local shows.
The truth of the matter is - you don't work for "nothing" and neither do they.
Most on this forum are very educated as to what they have and what it will bring, and most likely you wont get that from a dealer - so sell to another collector on your own!!!! Although I must say, even trying to make a deal on the Buy/Sell forum here is like pulling teeth - time to take off the rose colored glasses and ask reasonable price for your coins.
this is an interesting point insomuch as we always hear about dealers who buy low but not much is said about those that sell high. I won't say anything about your BST reference other than it seems pretty accurate where some sellers there are concerned, prices seem exhorbitantly high. some of the BST sellers link their eBay "auctions" which can run for months with continual TTT's. why is nothing ever said about that?? isn't that just the same thing at the other end of pay-scale??