"Sight Unseen" Market

TommyType

I hear chatter about one over-graded example having an impact on the sight unseen market, lowering the value of all examples at that grade.

But, does the “sight unseen” market really exist? If so, at what level?

I don’t know of any collector who adheres to the concept of “the grade is all you need to know”. I doubt anyone here would claim that all MS-65’s (or whatever), are the same.

Is it really a wholesale market? A dealer-to-dealer market? Does it only apply to common date, easily available “widgets”?

Or, is it a myth. A concept that someone is striving to achieve, but is really just a pipe dream. Something that drives wholesale price lists, but really doesn’t exist in practice?

Inquiring minds want to know....

MGLICKER

Seems that the sight unseen discounts are a deterrent to sales of any volume, particularly when inexpensive digital imaging is readily available.

WTCG

The sight-unseen market definitely exists for virtually all denominations but especially for those with high populations and large available quantities. Morgan dollars, Peace dollars, Walker halves, Mercury Dimes and Double Eagles are the most popular traded denominations.

CCE is the most popular pricing indicator for the sight unseen market. Bids and asks are updated instantaneously. The sight unseen market is primarily for dealer to dealer transactions but I would be willing to sell to a retail buyer at sight unseen numbers if they're willing to adhere to the common rules of buying coins by that method. In that segment of the market there are minimal details that differentiate coins of the same grade. The coin is graded by either PCGS or NGC. For gold it's either the coin has spots or not and for silver it's either the coin is toned or not. Minute details of each coin are not lingered over.

Thousands of coins, sometimes tens of thousands of coins, are traded sight unseen every business day and those transactions make up the bulk of the trading volume in numismatics.

shorecoll

We don't talk about it much on here, but there are thousands (at least) of collectors still who buy the cheapest coin in a certain grade to fill the missing date/mm in a series. Spend some time in the low-end section of a big show, or at most smaller regional shows and you'll see it first hand. I'm guessing those are the sight unseen buyers.

JJSingleton

Very informative post. Thanks

Ed62

Would you buy a used car or your new home 'sight unseen'???

PerryHall

<< <i>We don't talk about it much on here, but there are thousands (at least) of collectors still who buy the cheapest coin in a certain grade to fill the missing date/mm in a series. Spend some time in the low-end section of a big show, or at most smaller regional shows and you'll see it first hand. I'm guessing those are the sight unseen buyers. >>



Are you talking about the registry collectors that are more interested in collecting registry points than the actual coin?

RYK

Have you ever bought a coin in a Heritage auction (or other auction including eBay, in which there was no return privilege) without viewing the coin or having it screened for you? If the answer is "yes", you have participated in the sight-unseen market.

crypto79

<< <i>Have you ever bought a coin in a Heritage auction (or other auction including eBay, in which there was no return privilege) without viewing the coin or having it screened for you? If the answer is "yes", you have participated in the sight-unseen market. >>



Not sure I agree with you on this. I get where you are going but the large images and even the ability to inspect prior differentiates the two markets.

Broadstruck

<< <i>

<< <i>Have you ever bought a coin in a Heritage auction (or other auction including eBay, in which there was no return privilege) without viewing the coin or having it screened for you? If the answer is "yes", you have participated in the sight-unseen market. >>



Not sure I agree with you on this. I get where you are going but the large images and even the ability to inspect prior differentiates the two markets. >>



RYK is right as even if you have someone else inspect for you at lot viewing although they might have a great eye they might have a different taste. So unless you personally view it in hand it's sight unseen as something may instantly jump out at you the other party forgot to mention and isn't seen in the images.

darktone

<< <i>Would you buy a used car or your new home 'sight unseen'??? >>



Maybe not an individual but this is very common practice for car dealers as I would think would be the case with coin dealers too.

shorecoll

Good point Perry, you're talking about the cheapest 66 or whatever...I was talking about the cheapest VG, F, etc. but the point does still hold.

Cougar1978

Anything bought without looking at the coin in person (sight seen) where your able to look at it in adequate lighting or inspect it under a glass is sight unseen.

I would consider buying coins off ebay (even if there is a scan of the coin) sight unseen.

TommyType

Thanks for the lesson on the goings-on on CCE, WTCG. I guess I was aware of some dealer-to-dealer "action", but not the potential magnitude. I did a quick tour of the site and rules, and it does appear like an interesting place! Something hidden, and out of sight, from us solo collectors....though, probably not to our detriment. An efficient way for coins to get to the places where they are most useful to the hobby....both for dealers, and ultimately for collectors.

I do have some beef with the description of online auctions being truly "sight-unseen". If I have the option to pick and chose which coins I am, or am not, interested in based on an even imperfect presentation, (photos), then it really doesn't qualify as PURE sight-unseen where the TPG opinion is all that matters. It seems to me to fall somewhere in between....but maybe that's just symantics. I know I'd never buy without return privileges based on grade only....but a TPG coin that also looks good to me, and where I have some control beyond a set price seems like a different animal.

Thanks for the thoughts and comments.

Baley

I've never shopped for a coin starting with "I need a _______ in ______ holder, doesn't matter what it looks like"

Zoins

<< <i>Have you ever bought a coin in a Heritage auction (or other auction including eBay, in which there was no return privilege) without viewing the coin or having it screened for you? If the answer is "yes", you have participated in the sight-unseen market. >>





If you bought a coin without a return privilege and without actually seeing the coin in person, or via a proxy, you've purchased sight-unseen.

Nap

I often buy sight unseen. I collect Northumbrian stycas which are small bronze coins from 9th century England. They are small and hard to photograph even for dealers. I have extremely limited options of seeing in hand before I buy. And when I buy off eBay or even dealer web sites the pictures are frequently awful and next to useless.

20 years ago I would not have been able to collect these without going to England myself (I'm in the States) or having a connection in the international coin scene. Good luck finding a dealer that stocks these. So the internet has created a sight unseen market that has enabled me to build a collection. I can't really complain even if the coin doesn't quite match the pics.

cladking

<< <i>We don't talk about it much on here, but there are thousands (at least) of collectors still who buy the cheapest coin in a certain grade to fill the missing date/mm in a series. Spend some time in the low-end section of a big show, or at most smaller regional shows and you'll see it first hand. I'm guessing those are the sight unseen buyers. >>



It's not so much that collectors are buying the cheapest coin for the
gradeas it is they want to select a coin from the low end. I'd much
rather select a coin from thelow end than pay 2 to 5 times as much
for stickered or prime examples.

Many dealers cater to collectors who want a nice coin at low prices
and these coins end up among such collectors.

This works largely because of unsophisticated collectors as well as many
collectors who grade differently than the services. Some prefer strike, or
nice original surfaces, or any attribute of grading. I would much rather
have a well struck Gem with a couple marks than a stickered coin with a
lesser strike and much higher price.

One person's widget is another's Gem.

OKbustchaser

<< <i>Thanks for the lesson on the goings-on on CCE, WTCG. I guess I was aware of some dealer-to-dealer "action", but not the potential magnitude. I did a quick tour of the site and rules, and it does appear like an interesting place! Something hidden, and out of sight, from us solo collectors....though, probably not to our detriment. An efficient way for coins to get to the places where they are most useful to the hobby....both for dealers, and ultimately for collectors.

I do have some beef with the description of online auctions being truly "sight-unseen". If I have the option to pick and chose which coins I am, or am not, interested in based on an even imperfect presentation, (photos), then it really doesn't qualify as PURE sight-unseen where the TPG opinion is all that matters. It seems to me to fall somewhere in between....but maybe that's just symantics. I know I'd never buy without return privileges based on grade only....but a TPG coin that also looks good to me, and where I have some control beyond a set price seems like a different animal.

Thanks for the thoughts and comments. >>



Sight seen vs sight unseen has nothing to do with photos. It has to do with whether or not you can physically examine the coin in hand prior to committing to buy. If you can see it prior to final purchase it is a sight seen sale--even if you must pay for the coin up front (as with an on-line purchase with a return privilege). If you must commit to buying it prior to seeing it (sale is final--no return privilege) then it is sight unseen.