There is a nice 1975 PR70DCAM on ebay here. It is not mine. If it was it would not be for sale. Too expense for me or I would not be pointing it out. He has it listed as a pop 1, but it is a pop 2 coin. The other one is here.
I will be submitting a large batch of early to mid 1970 proof nickels over next 90 days. I would be surprised if the "70" pop does not move up by the end of the Summer on one or more of the 1973-1976 proof nickels. Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I cannot tell the difference between a 69 and a 70. My recent mintage Jefferson proofs are all 69's. I have better coins to spend my money on than PF70 Jeffs.
<< <i>There is a nice 1975 PR70DCAM on ebay here. It is not mine. If it was it would not be for sale. Too expense for me or I would not be pointing it out. He has it listed as a pop 1, but it is a pop 2 coin. The other one is here. >>
Gee, only 5 grand over its real value.
Do you suppose a really big fish is going to swim by on eBay??
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Can't that be said for most modern plastic rarities? Surprising to see you say that
but Crypto, you surely realize that if Mitch happens to have a coin grade as a "70" that he'll either sell it much, much cheaper in private or start it at 99 Cents and let the market determine the price, right??
Keets. I am selling some high priced "70" grade coins on ebay myself right now. I just looked at all of my listings to see the highest multiple I am selling right now (for a single point differential). My offerings range from about 1.35 to a high of roughly a 95 multiple. That "95" coin is also an "OBO" where I last accepted a price that would bring it down to about a 50 multiple. I also have a classic coin (pre-1964) with a multiple of roughly 17 for a half point right now.
Which brings up a related question of whether applying a multiple factor is even a reasonable method of assessing a 1 point move up for a coin's grade? I personally find it useful and tend to use it in some of my buying decisions (classic and modern). But, as DH says, the key is to have fun with your coins and, hence, your coin purchases. Anyone has the absolute right to pay 1000x for a one point move up in grade and anyone has the absolute right to ask for that price as well. Congrats go out to that ebay seller for getting in that coin from PCGS.
Now, besides all this "differential" talk, I am also personally familiar with 1975-S proof nickels in spectacular high grade. I may have examined roughly 10,000 specimens over the past dozen or so years. It is a very difficult coin to locate in "perfect" grade. For anyone seriously interested in discussing this coin feel free to send me a PM. I am always happy to discuss my findings.
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Mitch, you're not telling me anything I didn't already know, the reason for my reply was simple-----it just seemed a little disingenuous of you to mock(LOL) the price of a 70 compared to a 69.
Sometimes I wonder if we aren't all misthinking this grade and increment issue.
It's easy for us to find that "scarcity" that represents .25% of mintage because all we have to do is gather up a few hundred proof sets (400) and one will be there. Indeed, in this num- ber of sets there will be other tough finds of other denominations as well. I remember the days that these sets were just everywhere by the 100's if you wanted to pay the price. But now days you have to pick them 30 or 40 at a time. How long will it be until they are avail- able only five or ten at a time. Now days the sets tend to be busted up and sold for parts af- ter being searched but what happens when the value of intact sets goes higher than the parts? The first thing that will happen is the stockpile that gets searched for Gems (PR-70's) will be diluted by all the sets that have been searched so instead of needing 400 sets to find that PR-70 you might need 1,000 and have to buy them a few at a time.
This isn't to say collectors or investors are well advised to buy coins at huge multiples of the next lower grade, merely at some point the supply of these will get choked off. Every day that goes by more of the sets are being destroyed by the forces of time and misadventure and in some unknown day in the future it will suddenly begin getting a great deal more difficult to maintain a supply. It's been a numbers game and this is true because of multi-million mint- ages but the market treats these as a consumable and they are certainly getting consumed. While the proofs had huge mintages that will most probably prevent them from ever getting seriously expensive one has to wonder if we are underestimating the long term potential of the 70's. Keep in mind that collector demand is fickle and it's entirely possible that PR-69's or even nice PR-68's will fullfill a larger part of demand. All of the arguments against these coins are valid including some dependence on stable grading standards but still the sets are getting fewer and farther between and the supply is hardly infinite.
When the sets run out so do the PR-70's right behind them.
CK. I may be misthinking it. But, I had a great conversation with Justhavingfun today about the very issue. At one point he had the nicest set of Jefferson nickels ever assembled and I still consider him one of the most thoughtful and impressive collectors of the 1990s and first decade of the 21st Century.
He told me that the "Steep cliff" began for him as a collector when the one point differential exceeded 10x. I love his reference to it as the Steep cliff!
The proof sets from the mid-1970s are getting tougher and tougher to locate in quantity with each passing year. But, so are the collectors willing to pay me $10 for a PR69DCAM Jefferson example and, hence, my asking price remains $9.
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
The proof sets from the mid-1970s are getting tougher and tougher to locate in quantity with each passing year. But, so are the collectors willing to pay me $10 for a PR69DCAM Jefferson example and, hence, my asking price remains $9.
>>
I think this is the chief weakness of modern proofs; they're too nice. Three out of four of the surviving '75 proof nickels look really nice. The spread in grade on these is fairly narrow. They are all well struck and fully lustrous and few collectors will look at one of these and think it's too ugly for his collection. Some might want to look at a few and choose the nicest but fewer will be concerned with getting a coin from a brand new die with "no" marking.
While it's a huge weakness for high grades in a market with so little demand it can become a strenght over time as more collectors become impressed by their near perfection. Many modern collectors seek proofs because they are so well made and this is why there are lots fewer of the sets each year. They are being busted up in massive quantities by the wholesalers but for each one they destroy there is one lost to time and tide and two destroyed by collectors.
When the wholesalers can't get quanties then the demand for the 70's will pretty much have to cease and then you'll probably see real demand for the 69's.
<<Actually, the proof Jeffersons from 1990-present can be had for less than $100 each.
>>
Actually, I acquired 20 PCGS graded set PR69DCAM dated from 1983-S to 2002-S for about $100 total. Twenty coins with consecutive dates = about $5.00 per coin. And PCGS graded.
Wondercoin has made a third one and has listed it on ebay. Congratulations on making this one!
<< <i>There is a nice 1975 PR70DCAM on ebay here. It is not mine. If it was it would not be for sale. Too expense for me or I would not be pointing it out. He has it listed as a pop 1, but it is a pop 2 coin. The other one is here. >>
buying these "perfect" coins lies somewhere between risky and foolhardy since the price drops dramatically once the pops start to swell. also, I don't have much faith in the grading or the stability of the coins themselves inside the capsules and there have been periods in the past where PCGS effectively quit assigning the "70" grade. what should that tell us??
I thought the odds were fairly high that I would slab at least one 70DCAM nickel from the mid-70s this Summer based upon the sheer volume of coins I knew I was submitting to PCGS, which is why I mentioned it a few months back.
The coin has fabulous depth of cameo by ANY grading company's standard... rest assured of that.
But, as I originally stated, this type of coin is not for everyone and most folks might be perfectly happy with a $10 or $20 example one grade under.
Likewise, I own a lovely 1909svdb cent grading PCGS-MS66+RD and the mere half point move up to 67RD adds about $75,000-$80,000 to the current value of my coin. I am content owning this one for now (and will probably be selling it off to keep my 66RD instead which is also plenty of coin for me).
On the other hand, I will pay up for Washington quarters I need for my set and pay huge premiums for a one point upgrade.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>I thought the odds were fairly high that I would slab at least one 70DCAM nickel from the mid-70s this Summer based upon the sheer volume of coins I knew I was submitting to PCGS, which is why I mentioned it a few months back.
The coin has fabulous depth of cameo by ANY grading company's standard... rest assured of that.
But, as I originally stated, this type of coin is not for everyone and most folks might be perfectly happy with a $10 or $20 example one grade under.
Likewise, I own a lovely 1909svdb cent grading PCGS-MS66+RD and the mere half point move up to 67RD adds about $75,000-$80,000 to the current value of my coin. I am content owning this one for now (and will probably be selling it off to keep my 66RD instead which is also plenty of coin for me).
On the other hand, I will pay up for Washington quarters I need for my set and pay huge premiums for a one point upgrade.
>>
Paying up for mint state examples makes perfect sense to me. I suppose proofs are more an acquired taste since the differences are less noticeable.
To each his own but a really Gem FS mint state (VEDS) nickel is a sight to behold and most dates are exceedingly scarce to rare in such condition. They may not be everyone's cup of tea but I just marvel at all the things that had to go right for such a coin to exist at all and then still be in pristine conditions after 99.9% of its sister coins have kicked arond in circulation for decades.
Only we who have searched for such coins can really appreciate them, perhaps.
BaronVonBaugh
Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭✭
Comments
Wondercoin
I cannot tell the difference between a 69 and a 70. My recent mintage Jefferson proofs are all 69's. I have better coins to spend my money on than PF70 Jeffs.
OINK
<< <i>There is a nice 1975 PR70DCAM on ebay here.
It is not mine. If it was it would not be for sale. Too expense for me or I would not be pointing it out.
He has it listed as a pop 1, but it is a pop 2 coin. The other one is here. >>
Gee, only 5 grand over its real value.
Do you suppose a really big fish is going to swim by on eBay??
The name is LEE!
<< <i>The one grade under coin I sell for $9. LOL.
Wondercoin >>
Hmm... one grade point I can't even see and I'd wager most other people can't see either. A $9,990.00 price difference.
Wonder which one I'd choose?
<< <i>The one grade under coin I sell for $9. LOL.
Wondercoin >>
Can't that be said for most modern plastic rarities? Surprising to see you say that but
but Crypto, you surely realize that if Mitch happens to have a coin grade as a "70" that he'll either sell it much, much cheaper in private or start it at 99 Cents and let the market determine the price, right??
Wondercoin
Steve
Which brings up a related question of whether applying a multiple factor is even a reasonable method of assessing a 1 point move up for a coin's grade? I personally find it useful and tend to use it in some of my buying decisions (classic and modern). But, as DH says, the key is to have fun with your coins and, hence, your coin purchases. Anyone has the absolute right to pay 1000x for a one point move up in grade and anyone has the absolute right to ask for that price as well. Congrats go out to that ebay seller for getting in that coin from PCGS.
Now, besides all this "differential" talk, I am also personally familiar with 1975-S proof nickels in spectacular high grade. I may have examined roughly 10,000 specimens over the past dozen or so years. It is a very difficult coin to locate in "perfect" grade. For anyone seriously interested in discussing this coin feel free to send me a PM. I am always happy to discuss my findings.
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin.
Wondercoin
It's easy for us to find that "scarcity" that represents .25% of mintage because all we have
to do is gather up a few hundred proof sets (400) and one will be there. Indeed, in this num-
ber of sets there will be other tough finds of other denominations as well. I remember the
days that these sets were just everywhere by the 100's if you wanted to pay the price. But
now days you have to pick them 30 or 40 at a time. How long will it be until they are avail-
able only five or ten at a time. Now days the sets tend to be busted up and sold for parts af-
ter being searched but what happens when the value of intact sets goes higher than the parts?
The first thing that will happen is the stockpile that gets searched for Gems (PR-70's) will be
diluted by all the sets that have been searched so instead of needing 400 sets to find that
PR-70 you might need 1,000 and have to buy them a few at a time.
This isn't to say collectors or investors are well advised to buy coins at huge multiples of the
next lower grade, merely at some point the supply of these will get choked off. Every day that
goes by more of the sets are being destroyed by the forces of time and misadventure and in
some unknown day in the future it will suddenly begin getting a great deal more difficult to
maintain a supply. It's been a numbers game and this is true because of multi-million mint-
ages but the market treats these as a consumable and they are certainly getting consumed.
While the proofs had huge mintages that will most probably prevent them from ever getting
seriously expensive one has to wonder if we are underestimating the long term potential of
the 70's. Keep in mind that collector demand is fickle and it's entirely possible that PR-69's
or even nice PR-68's will fullfill a larger part of demand. All of the arguments against these
coins are valid including some dependence on stable grading standards but still the sets are
getting fewer and farther between and the supply is hardly infinite.
When the sets run out so do the PR-70's right behind them.
He told me that the "Steep cliff" began for him as a collector when the one point differential exceeded 10x. I love his reference to it as the Steep cliff!
The proof sets from the mid-1970s are getting tougher and tougher to locate in quantity with each passing year. But, so are the collectors willing to pay me $10 for a PR69DCAM Jefferson example and, hence, my asking price remains $9.
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin.
<< <i>
The proof sets from the mid-1970s are getting tougher and tougher to locate in quantity with each passing year. But, so are the collectors willing to pay me $10 for a PR69DCAM Jefferson example and, hence, my asking price remains $9.
>>
I think this is the chief weakness of modern proofs; they're too nice. Three out
of four of the surviving '75 proof nickels look really nice. The spread in grade on
these is fairly narrow. They are all well struck and fully lustrous and few collectors
will look at one of these and think it's too ugly for his collection. Some might want
to look at a few and choose the nicest but fewer will be concerned with getting a
coin from a brand new die with "no" marking.
While it's a huge weakness for high grades in a market with so little demand it can
become a strenght over time as more collectors become impressed by their near
perfection. Many modern collectors seek proofs because they are so well made and
this is why there are lots fewer of the sets each year. They are being busted up in
massive quantities by the wholesalers but for each one they destroy there is one
lost to time and tide and two destroyed by collectors.
When the wholesalers can't get quanties then the demand for the 70's will pretty
much have to cease and then you'll probably see real demand for the 69's.
Is JHF working on his elephants still? Say hey.
>>
Actually, I acquired 20 PCGS graded set PR69DCAM dated from 1983-S to 2002-S for about $100 total. Twenty coins with consecutive dates = about $5.00 per coin. And PCGS graded.
How is this possible??
OINK
<< <i>There is a nice 1975 PR70DCAM on ebay here.
It is not mine. If it was it would not be for sale. Too expense for me or I would not be pointing it out.
He has it listed as a pop 1, but it is a pop 2 coin. The other one is here. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>The one grade under coin I sell for $9. LOL.
Wondercoin >>
Can't that be said for most modern plastic rarities? >>
Many classic plastic (condition) rarities also have huge jumps in prices.
The coin has fabulous depth of cameo by ANY grading company's standard... rest assured of that.
But, as I originally stated, this type of coin is not for everyone and most folks might be perfectly happy with a $10 or $20 example one grade under.
Likewise, I own a lovely 1909svdb cent grading PCGS-MS66+RD and the mere half point move up to 67RD adds about $75,000-$80,000 to the current value of my coin. I am content owning this one for now (and will probably be selling it off to keep my 66RD instead which is also plenty of coin for me).
On the other hand, I will pay up for Washington quarters I need for my set and pay huge premiums for a one point upgrade.
Wondercoin
<< <i>I thought the odds were fairly high that I would slab at least one 70DCAM nickel from the mid-70s this Summer based upon the sheer volume of coins I knew I was submitting to PCGS, which is why I mentioned it a few months back.
The coin has fabulous depth of cameo by ANY grading company's standard... rest assured of that.
But, as I originally stated, this type of coin is not for everyone and most folks might be perfectly happy with a $10 or $20 example one grade under.
Likewise, I own a lovely 1909svdb cent grading PCGS-MS66+RD and the mere half point move up to 67RD adds about $75,000-$80,000 to the current value of my coin. I am content owning this one for now (and will probably be selling it off to keep my 66RD instead which is also plenty of coin for me).
On the other hand, I will pay up for Washington quarters I need for my set and pay huge premiums for a one point upgrade.
>>
Paying up for mint state examples makes perfect sense to me. I suppose proofs
are more an acquired taste since the differences are less noticeable.
To each his own but a really Gem FS mint state (VEDS) nickel is a sight to behold
and most dates are exceedingly scarce to rare in such condition. They may not be
everyone's cup of tea but I just marvel at all the things that had to go right for such
a coin to exist at all and then still be in pristine conditions after 99.9% of its sister
coins have kicked arond in circulation for decades.
Only we who have searched for such coins can really appreciate them, perhaps.