So when did this board's love affair with NGC begin? And why?

canadacolornut · May 9, 2014 6:08PM

When i pretty much dropped out of collecting , almost 3 years ago, NGC was regarded -correctly-as being at least one point looser than PCGS
and was more or less for collectors who liked the higher grades on the holder than the coin itself.

I know because I played the crossing game for almost a year-in the holder and out of it to get rid of holder bias-with very few crossing at the
same grade. I'm guessing at least 50 coins in and out of NGC, ICCS and other grading service holders with miserable results. Only ANACS holdered
coins were successfully crossed most of trhe time.

Now I see many of the old hands here talking and selling NGC coins; Heriitage has maybe 25% as many PCGS offerings as NGC and a recent Goldberg
catalogue had maybe 5%-10% as many.

So what's the reasoning behind it? Is "Popularity" overriding accurate grades? Has NGC tightened their standards or PCGS lossened therirs?

I love the wider NGC offerings of dates I'm looking for but do I still hve to buy one grade higher than I need to have any hope for a cross for I can accept?

I recently bought one-just one-NGC coin graded at PR 68 hoping I could cross it at the PR 67 grade I need. Does that still make sense here or not?

I'd appreciate any and all comments that could give me a better understanding of the situation.

Regards and thanks.....

lordmarcovan · May 9, 2014 7:24PM

I don't think it's so much a love affair with NGC as the fact that NGC is just generally more popular for world coins?

I pretty much drink the PCGS Kool-Aid these days, though I use NGC for my ancients, of course.

I dislike the white prongs and inserts NGC uses. I didn't used to mind so much, but as time passes, I like those less and less.

Funny how a holder that's designed to show the edge of a coin (and thereby make it more visible) actually hampers the visibility of parts of the rim, and intrudes if one is photographing coins inside their holders.

PCGS's clear, less-intrusive prongs and inserts are better, but I still think they should only use the prong inserts on coins with lettered edges.

Yep, the "Prongs of Death" are what turns me off the most with NGC. Otherwise I have no real objection to them, I guess.

syl · May 9, 2014 7:58PM

Each of the grading companies have their own strengths and weaknesses, depending upon the country and denomination/monarch. Your site name says that you probably have and affinity for Canadian stuff. I gave up on ICCS years ago becuase of their generous 'grading creep' from the older days. CCS looked ike it would be a godsend because of the varieties that they would certify, but then they go out of hand and they would certify anything made of metal and basically round. From my collecting friends here in Canada, PCGS seems to be the TPG of choice for Large Cents, but they are REALLY tough on Red or RB designations and PCGS is the choice for the large silvers. 5 cent silvers still should go to ICCS, because that is Brian's personal collecting area. I don't know of very many using NGC but, when they do, it's 10 & 25 cent silvers. CCCS had lost it's glow due to certifying things that weren't coins to start with or were counterfeit and certified as true. Thankfully they FINALLY stopped certifying coins that had been cleaned or 'preserved' and never mentioned on the holder. ICG gets quite a few Large Cents, especially from one dealer who certs many varieties, but they aren't too good at not mentioning cleaning, although they DO use the "details" after the grade. I see very few ANACS any more. From where I sit, NGC has had little effect on things Canuck.

BTW, as a long time fan who went to his first game as a kid at Sportsman's Park before they named it Busch Stadium, I still get a smile on my face when I see Stan the Man, especially his stance.

coinkat · May 9, 2014 9:09PM

I have always advocated the look of the coin over the holder. That remains my position. To elaborate, the reality is that not all coins at the same grade have the same look. So even though one may be in holder x and the other in y, it is easy to start about standards and whether x is the better TPG than y instead of having the coin as the focal point of the discussion. I submit to PCGS and NGC. I respect graders at both services. I have not submitted to ANACs in well over 10 years since certain folks whom I respect left.

My parting comment is that grading is an opinion and not a math problem. There is a right and wrong answer adding or subtracting numbers. Grading is an art and a science based on standards and experience in an effort to best describe the condition of a coin. Some opinions are better than others, and some coins are better than others even at the same grade level. The key is to search out equality for the grade and that process can be achieved by different means.

These truly are my thoughts... its not an effort to avoid a direct answer.

Zohar · May 9, 2014 10:34PM

I tried working with both and the decision was driven by customer service. I found one service provider far more attuned to the needs of the individual collector rather than strictly serving dealers.

SYRACUSIAN · May 10, 2014 12:44AM

Zohar and 'kat are always right.

But just to add an opinion, I think that much of NGC's success at big auction houses, and/or well known dealers has to do with the prices they do for them, lower than PCGS I believe, as well as their consistency. NGC is NGC, it screws up a lot IMHO, even when it concerns rare and pricey counterfeits, but it's my personal opinion no need to analyze it further. PCGS is the definition of inconsistency.

When they first opened their Paris office, the poor graders had to travel to Paris each month for 5 days, grade an impossible number of coins, and then back to Newport beach. No wonder that after the first two trips they were like dizzy chickens and their grading was VERY LOOSE if only from the jet lag and the lack of sleep and all over the place. Now they have fixed that, by sending the Paris coins to the US by courier and having them back within a month or less. The graders now visit Paris in person 3-4 times a year max and the standards all of a sudden became TOO strict.

Most members buy graded coins at big auctions etc, so if NGC has the lion's share it will be NGC coins,and as for the crossover game I never played it,it seems to me like useless expenses if I don't play the registry game (which I don't) ,or try to make a profit from an extra grade (never did that either) ,although I understand the point of view from a collector/trader of Canadian coins.

JCMhouston · May 10, 2014 3:44AM

NGC has been grading world coins much longer, and in my limited experience are a little more consistent, or at least I have learned to interpret their grading better. PCGS is also more expensive for world coins, and my one experience with customer service left much to be desired. 4 weeks to get a response on a fairly simple error they made is just crazy, then another 3 weeks to actually get it fixed.

Stork · May 10, 2014 4:17AM

Well, I have a confession to make...after 10 years of adult collecting I decided to have fun with a registry set. It was for the Albanian coins and NGC had the set I was trying to complete. Plus, I had more in NGC slabs. I sent 3 to try a crossover specifying the grade protection. Two made it, one did not...namely NGC was the tighter grader. I won't be doing much other than that set...plus I had fun adding a couple custom sets, and I honestly don't know what PCGS does with that. I picked purely for the Albanians, and am not interested in doing much more with Registry sets, it was just something todo for fun. However it was illuminating about the tighter grade.

On the other hand I also had an old Italy/Genoa coin in an OGH PCGS at AU-58. For the life of me I could never see the wear, so I sent that too. It came back in an MS-62 slab. I was guessing 63, but the 62 looks more accurate than the AU grade.

Personally I buy so much on the internet I look to both services as a way to avoid things I can't see in a photo and I'll buy either one happily. I don't habitually add or discount grading points for either...and I merely found my limited experiment interesting :

AU58-->62
66RB-->same
66--> same
66--> DNC

mdwoods · May 10, 2014 6:02AM

Most of my Canadian coins are MS silver dollars 35-67. I find PCGS to be the toughest on these coins. ICCS and NGC seem about the same to me, at least for silver MS dollars. I see some in ANACS and a few in ICG but I haven't seen those in hand.

SYRACUSIAN · May 10, 2014 6:03AM

Cathy, did you cross the Italy/Genoa or did you crack it out first?

I will assume the first, because I have a hard time picturing you with a hammer trying to crack the slab, like an inmate of a Mississipi prison of the 40s breaking rocks and singing early blues.

If we switch the grading services, would it ever be conceivable that PCGS would upgrade any NGC coin to MS62? With D.H. specifying that 25% of NGC crossovers DNC, as if it's a geometric principle?

mrpotatoheadd · May 10, 2014 11:08AM

<< I'd appreciate any and all comments that could give me a better understanding of the situation. >>

They're different companies and they have different grading standards. If somebody started a new grading service and always graded coins one point lower than PCGS, would that make them better than PCGS?

MrEureka · May 10, 2014 12:30PM

…almost 3 years ago, NGC was regarded -correctly-as being at least one point looser than PCGS

IMHO, this is both an exaggeration and an over-simplification. However, even if we completely accept your premise, consider the following. NGC established itself in the world coin market long before PCGS. Therefore, NGC got to set the standard for the world coin market. So, if PCGS or any other TPG subsequently wanted to enter the world coin market and compete with NGC, how could they expect to get lots of submissions if all they were offering (to potential submitters) were higher grading fees and lower grades?

marcmoish · May 10, 2014 12:36PM

Interesting right on target opening title.

Personally I prefer our hosts holder over NGC's.

I do agree PCGS fees are nuts and they literally push alot of business directly into NGC's coffers which I don't really understand but that's life...there must be a conscientious decision to do just that.

Grading they both are OK although over the YEARS I have seen much more accurately graded PCGS world items v/s NGC but that varies with everyone's eyes and expectations so its hard to get a solid read on it. Again that's a personal read.

The last large collection NGC graded in my eyes was a total sham as most were in way over-graded holders, and many should have been detailed/BB'd.
I just didn't think it was fair for the little guys - but again that's jmho.
I've submitted similar COOL stuff only to be BB'd as have most of us I assume.

The crossovers, regrades plus double and triple submissions is a waste of money obviously...but if I was on the board I'd want to see profits soooo

..as is the stupid green wings, watermelons, (cucumbers?) or whatever the heck those are...but we've been there already...and I don't want to get worked up now...

Like most will state...if the coin is pleasing to YOUR eyes then buy the coin not the holder.

That said I have gotten some solid PCGS regrades lately - but then said coin(s) should have been in correct holder all along ye know...

There you go...my rant for sat night.

MacCrimmon · May 10, 2014 2:56PM

I've always desired a gem unc. date run of Gothic florins, but funds (and availability) always seemed to be a problem. So, I've commissioned some "merchants" in Shanghai to knock out 200 of each Gothic florin date, and I then ordered thousands of the PCGS clamshells and labels from Alibaba, and now I'm in business. I even found an old ultrasonic welding horn to lock those clamshells tightly together (no tacky glue job for these beauties).

I'm thinking of offering them to HSC at $49,995 in 5 easy payments ( graded MS66+, or so ). Throw in some price data based on Newman's 10-12% annual returns, and BOOM. SHOULD BE A SELL OUT!!!

I was also feeling a little guilty so I'm throwing in a custom-designed faux walnut display case with vacuum-formed velvet slots which ensconce those PCGS "Alibaba" holders perfectly.

WAIT!!! HOLD THE PRESSES!!!!

Ordered another 200 Gothic date sets to "securely place" in NGC holders................they're going to run $39,995 for the same grade as above. Hey, you get what you pay for, so buy the coin, not the holder!!!!

P.S. A third option is Taco Bell toning for either service holder; just add $1,000 ( I get the napkins cheap in bulk so I'm passing the savings along

)

canadacolornut · May 11, 2014 6:17PM

Thanks for all the helpful responses folks.

Given the variety of opinions it might be difrficult to defend but I am sticking with PCGS for all the reasons I stated in the first place.

As I said, I played the "crossing" game with 3-4 services and wasted a lot of money with a miserable crossing rate. I now have only 1 NGC-in PR 68 that I'm going to OK
a cross in PR 67 and just hope it makes it.

Many years ago I got to know people like David Hall, B.J. Searls when they were selling World Coins on approval from want lists. This wass long before any of the grading services(circa 1975
as I recall). David was also selling old school books as collecticibles and I almost got into that! :+). I made serveral trips to Canada dealing with Brian Cornwell, Ingrid Smith, Paul Nadin Davis
and several others at shows and shops since I was hooked on Canadian coins at the time. I still am, but to a lesser degree since I've filled the sets I can afford and am mostly into British
George VI and Elizabeth 11 since I spent 3 years at RAF bases in the early 50's and admire the grit and determinattio of the Britsh people and the skills of the Spitfire pillots I associated
with a several bases scattered all over the country.

I've developed a strong affinity and a pretty good eye for grades over the years and really resent the pooularity, practically a takeover, in the world coin area of a service that thrives on
lower prices for higher grades that really aren't there.

The sets I'm bulding are for our grand kids, hoping that top quality coins of the 50's and 60's will have appreciated enough for them to have a nice cash out value when they're old
enough to know what they're doing when they decide to sell them.

Two comments from dealers I respect havae stuck with me over the years. "Knowledge is power" from a dealer that allowed me to pull out gems from original rolls at a premium before
he sold them for silver melt and from Ingrid Smith in Toronto when I asked her how she could let go the quality material she was selling at any price, let alone the prices she was
getting for them. She said:"John I sell coins for a living and do origami for pleasure".

I'm no longer much into selling and my pleasure comes mostly for building and displaying PCGS registry sets for our grand children' educating them in the history of the times surrounding the mintage of them (an excuse to tell my "war" stories :+) and hoping to instill some love for and knowledge of them that will keep them foom cashing them in to buy Ipads and such.

For the poster who asked about the Stan Musial image I use, I was the Columbus (Georgia)bat boy for the visiting team in the early forties, got to spend time with players like Musial, Johhnny
Mize, Marty Martion and others in and around the dugout, shagging fungoes at battting practice; saw Musial hit the longest home run (Over a two tiered center field fence) ever hit in Golden
Park. Our son has a nice letter his wife sent in reply to my letter to her after his death.

Please excuse the ramble. It's what old guys do at 4 a.m.....

canadacolornut · May 15, 2014 9:06AM

Wrung out I suppose.

But bumping anyway.....

SYRACUSIAN · May 15, 2014 12:45PM

You're like grampa Simpson then, sort of? He too finds any excuse to tell his war stories, only he falls asleep in between telling them. Yes?

I'm joking, I'm awake at 5:40 am too, a- because I wanted to check on a Heritage lot, an Italian gold 20 lire 1882 NGC 64, and b- because I'm 76 years old and I sleep 3 hours a day.

Lot is nice and tempting, not plagued by the usual hairlines of the issue, but I'm way above my elder son's allowance. If I could resell it though....

SYRACUSIAN · May 15, 2014 1:04PM

Guess what: I couldn't help myself so I bid on Umberto 25 seconds before its end, just because it was so damn cheap. Well, I ended up bidding 4 consecutive times within the space of 23 seconds and I still didn't win it, I've just increased its price by $50, which makes me twice as happy and Mr Ajaan won't be shouting at me for a recent buying spree. Gotta go to bed.

JCMhouston · May 15, 2014 1:08PM

Well I think you just aren't going to change anyone mind. Some like PCGS, some NGC. Personally I don't mind what others want to do, it's nice to have choices.

brg5658 · May 15, 2014 11:26PM

I think that people who collect coins in only one flavor of plastic need to reassess whether they collect coins or if they collect opinions.

Blanket statements with regard to one company versus another can always be turned on their head by numerous counter-examples. Cross overs never all go in one direction -- some downgrade, some upgrade, and some stay exactly the same. That's part of that "game" if you choose to play it. I don't play that game.

My personal philosophy is to buy the coins I like. Sometimes they are in flavor A plastic, sometimes flavor B plastic, sometimes they are "free range" raw buggers (gasp)!

Alas, those collectors who have a laser-focused approach to one flavor of plastic do leave a whole world of coins at my disposal that they aren't even looking at. So keep on keeping on -- more coins for me!

Stork · May 15, 2014 11:53PM

Dimitri, I just saw your comment...I did send over the four coins still in the PCGS plastic. You are right, it's not me doing the cracking. Whenever i need something cracked I hand it to my husband who disappears into the basement and returns with the coin. It's like magic.

In general, I am totally in favor with what others have said..I'm looking for the coin not the container.

If it's slabbed, it gets cracked out if I want it in my album (I have three--Japan and US type sets and a Euro album). I have coins that were bought raw, given to me raw or even pulled from my pocket change.

I tend to buy pricier things slabbed if I'm shopping online, but that is more of an insurance policy to avoid cleaned coins and outright fakes (I know, there are problem coins in slabs out there...this is a help, not a guarantee).

I've also slabbed to sell on eBay if the coin had some value. As a non dealer with no following and poor photo skills, I'll not come close to a good sales price otherwise.

On the buy side I don't really worry too much with the flavor of the plastic as I'm more interested in the coin...BUT I consider anything other than PCGS, NGC, ANACS or ICG as either raw--or worse as I wonder what's getting hidden unless I'm looking at it in hand. It's just rare to be shopping in person.

My only exception to having a focus on a specific breed of plastic is my new registry set...which is a small amusement, and my crossover experiment was tiny, self limited and an exercise in curiosity for the most part.

canadacolornut · May 16, 2014 7:46AM

Sounds like I didn't make myself clear folks.

I look at COINS first-not holders. With or without the holder the coin has to have the lustre.strike, eye appeal and be clear of hits, scratches,digs,milky fields. haze,contamination, carbon
sports, etc. or I'm not interested no matter what any grading house decides to label it. In fact I buy more raw coins-by far-than slabbed ones.

But when I DO want the coin slabbed-for the very obvious reason that the numeric grade will increase the value, it's unlikely to be a counterfeit and there's a fixed value range attached to
it-which was the reason David Hall started slabbing in the first place since most investors in stocks,bonds,etc. want that kind of security and value range it's GOING to be PCGS for the
reasons I stated.

I've tried enough times now to cross NGC and other grading house coins with miserable results-usually at least one point lower. And, yes, I crack many of them out so holder bias doesn't
get in the way of judgement and self interest.

That's the only point I was trying to make. I never buy any grading house coin without having a good clear image to evaluate for eye appeal and the other factors I stated.

Regards and thanks...

mrpotatoheadd · May 16, 2014 8:27AM

<< I've tried enough times now to cross NGC and other grading house coins with miserable results-usually at least one point lower. >>

Why are those results miserable? PCGS and NGC are different companies and it would be reasonable to conclude that they each have their own grading policies.

canadacolornut · May 16, 2014 11:49PM

Understood and that's my point.

PCGS standards are tighter than NGC's . You'll much more likely see a TRUE MS or Proof 67 in a PCGS 67 holder than you will in an NGC holder.

Personally I'm all for tight standards and to put an NGC 67 in the same grading and price category as PCGS is, to me, just a ploy by NGC to get more business
and is misleading the buyer.

bronco2078 · May 17, 2014 12:37AM

If its already in a slab though what is the point of crossing it?

In my view if a coin is in a slab and you crack it you destroy a percentage of the amount of money you paid for it.

Call it perceived value if you want.

If coin A sells for 100 raw , or 300 in NGC or 400 in PCGS then by cracking to raw it you lose $200 immediately (on paper) that you have to pay PCGS slabbing fees to get back. Until you do you have a raw coin.

If it gets bodybagged you are out more than 200 . Whats the play then? Send it in again?

My strategy is to do as little as possible. Buy coins I like , leave them as they come and never slab anything unless its an absolute positive, such as a rare variety that increases in value but only if its attributed.

That being said , I'm still sitting on a small crown canadian quarter that I've had in a cardboard flip for 5 years or so

It always makes more sense to lower your buying price than to spend money raising your selling price.

JCMhouston · May 17, 2014 12:48AM

I still disagree on pcgs somehow being tighter, that just hasn't been my experience. I've only played the crossover game once with 4 Geo. III halfpennies and went 1 for 4 trying to cross to NGC. They were all pcgs 64, I cracked the other 3 a few months later and sent them in raw and all made 63. Why cross you ask, honestly I just prefer the look of the coins in the NGC slabs.

EVillageProwler · May 17, 2014 1:02AM

<< I still disagree on pcgs somehow being tighter, that just hasn't been my experience. I've only played the crossover game once with 4 Geo. III halfpennies and went 1 for 4 trying to cross to NGC. They were all pcgs 64, I cracked the other 3 a few months later and sent them in raw and all made 63. Why cross you ask, honestly I just prefer the look of the coins in the NGC slabs. >>

I'm of similar opinion as Jeff's -- I recently crossed (not crack out) something like 17/22 from NGC to PCGS. When submitting raw, I prefer PCGS over NGC, but I will try whichever service I think will get me the grade I honestly feel the coin deserves. So, if it's a complicated coin, then I usually try NGC (because PCGS have less experience) first. If it's a easily understood coin, then I go with PCGS mostly because I find them more likely to grade looser than NGC.

I also like the response from brg12345, wherein he essentially says that his decisions are based on a nuanced analysis of how each transaction benefits him. Very rational, IMHO.

EVP

PS I'm speaking in general terms, but for me the coin rules and the holder plays an ancillary role.

SYRACUSIAN · May 17, 2014 5:27AM

It's been YEARS since we haven't had a grading company discussion, or maybe we've had and I refused to participate.

Regarding the looks, to each his own, but the NGC holders have always been ugly IMHO, with their latest models, the one with the prongs, the second ugliest ever, after the oversized NGC holder that Zohar sometimes receives when he submits his talers. There's a large Turkish 1800 crown currently on ebay, graded by NGC and the seller made it clear that it's been freshly graded, but the coin was so large that they used the old style holder (no prongs) in order to make it fit, thank God for that.

I used to like and still do the NGC multiholder for 4-5 coin sets, but PCGS doesn't slab world sets, otherwise their multiholder (for Eagles) is nice too.

NGC is not stricter IMO, except at times of incredible inconsistency by PCGS. As for Canadian coins, I've heard it over and over again, from botox to ajaan and everybody who collects Canadian, that for them, it's only ICCS or PCGS or both. They all stay clear from NGC unless they aren't given the choice, so I truly understand what cccnut is trying to say.

PCGS gives a point extra for eye appeal, nice colorful toning, exceptional luster etc, whilst NGC does not. They stick to technical grading disregarding the eye appeal. This is something I fail to understand, since the Sheldon scale is now being used to determine the price of a coin, and not to show its exact technical grade. Eitherway, my own standards, seem much more aligned with those of PCGS, I can deal with a weak strike, if the coin has exceptional eye appeal etc,and I will actually prefer it to a perfectly struck but dull coin.

As for their slab it's the prettiest one in the business IMHO, and everybody here is concerned with the display of their coins, be it in a Dansco album (one of my favorites) , or the Airtites and the box or cabinet to put them in, or the slab of their choice. Some, even build their own display cases. My real number one holder, the old Anacs small holder, disappeared along with THAT great team of graders from Anacs so PCGS is fine by me. I also like the ICG holder who still grades world coins correctly, but it's a shame that they tarnished their rep with these easy 70s on modern US coins, and as a result, it's very rare to come across one with a world coin of interest to me inside it.

As for ICCS, I've said it again and again: it's GREAT, especially if it were used for ancient coins. Its resemblance with regular 2.5x2.5 flips makes it ideal to connect anti slab people with encapsulation and third party grading. But I believe I'm one against the world on this subject, I'm aware of that, so I'll drop it.

Zohar · May 17, 2014 8:10AM

I have seen some inconsistent grading by both services depending one what year the coins were graded. They seemed to have tightened and loosened. I have some Killer "MS-58" NGC that would be a MS-62 PCGS and vice versa. I agree with Dimitri regarding eye appeal. NGC doesn't give much for that and PCGS has. My recent 1682 Salzburg PCGS MS-64 purchase benefitted from the eye appeal to get the extra point.

coinkat · May 17, 2014 9:55AM

I appreciate what folks are writing here about standards and who grades tight... However, grading remains subjective. Standards as well as the interpretation of standards remains an evolutionary process which is subject to change. The coin hopefully will not chance so it is the coin that remains constant. The challenge is to find the right coin that speaks volumes for its state of preservation. And there may be a compelling difference of opinion even if the coin was graded by a TPG company. The difference may not be in standards or which TPG company grades tight, but the coin itself.

mrpotatoheadd · May 17, 2014 11:02AM

<< Understood and that's my point.

PCGS standards are tighter than NGC's . >>

So if I started a grading service that was tighter than PCGS, my grading service would be better? Why is the grading service that grades lower better? I'm not understanding your point.

And as far as PCGS being tighter, how do you explain a coin that was cracked out on an NGC AU details- hairlined holder that was submitted to PCGS getting a MS63BN grade?

canadacolornut · May 17, 2014 6:17PM

I don't have to explain it my friend, PCGS does. I imagine that with some 50 million submissions some mistakes are bound to be made. But,as the saying goes,one swallow
does not a summer make.

I'd much rather NGC explain why more than half their coins I tried to cross-holdered and un holdered-came back at least one point lower in the PCGS holder; not a single one higher.

I'm not looking for "tighter". I'm looking for accurate grading and a service I can count on to deliver it.

mrpotatoheadd · May 17, 2014 11:49PM

EVillageProwler · May 18, 2014 12:38AM

Choice of service, or anything, can be religious.

In this context, what matters most is buying the truly nice coins at fair prices. When it comes time to sell, the conditions for best return can be vastly different than when one purchased the coins.

Think of this as an iPhone vs Android argument. Apple came first wit the iPhone. Therefore, it has had a head start in that market -- technology, look-n-feel and marketing. But is it really better than the latest Android smart phone? That's really an opinion. I stay with the iPhone due to two big factors: familiarity and that I'm tied into the iTunes ecosystem (my music/videos/etc). The competing products don't compel me to switch.

For NGC vs PCGS in the world coin market, NGC went big into that market first. That is a fact. So, they get the head start in customer loyalty, marketing, etc. Maybe even grader expertise and experience. But which is better? Who knows, and really who cares -- as long as your coins get the coins they deserve. My choice of service is based on which holder I like better. But, that is second to the coin itself and which company will assign it the grade that I think is appropriate.

When I buy a raw coin, I assign it a grade range that I think is reasonable. Then, I will keep it raw or submit it to a service that I think will present the coin nicely. If I don't get the grade I think is reasonable, then I will try again or try the other service.

If I see a slabbed coin, I will try to grade it as if raw. Then, I will decide what I thin is a fair price based on my personal assessment of the coin. Regardless of the holder. I may try crackout or crossover later for other reasons, but not because I think a service is "better".

A service is "better" to me if it gives me what I want.

EVP

Greig · May 18, 2014 1:31AM

Not to extend this debate further, but I noticed few (if any) comments about the group's collective experiences in submitting ANACS slabs for grading. Over the past few years, I have sent in something like 50 coins for reslabbing with our hosts (mainly for Registry set purposes) and have generally had more success in getting ANACS slabs returned at the same grade or (in a couple of cases) higher. My last effort included five NGC coins (four made it) and one ANACS (which made it as well). In one case, I sent in a German half mark in NGC 64 twice: once for the same grade and, when that effort failed, at any grade at or above MS 60. PCGS refused to cross it both times!

Anybody else have any sense of a success rate, NGC vs. ANACS?

canadacolornut · May 18, 2014 3:47AM

If I'm going to try and cross another grading service's coin with PCGS it will be ANACS-the only one I've had any reasonable degree of success with.

I've read all sides of the debate here and am preparing for the first time in over 3 years to try and cross an NGC PR 68 with PCGS. I've looked at the coin very
carefully and believe it at least has a shot. But to hedge it; I only need a PR 67 to improve an example I have in a Registry Set.

Any opinions, bets, on the outcome? I promise to show the link when the grade is posted.

I've been away from collecting all this time but coming back with one last shot to improve my sets for our grand kids before the money I've set aside is shot too.

As a test I went back through over a dozen 30's-60's British and South African proof sets that I had cherry picked earlier and put in the "sell as is" category for them
to dispose of after I'm gone. I located 14 that I thought had a decent shot and split them into 2 submissions. One of my motivations was to see if the PCGS grading
standards had changed during that time.

I just got results on the first 5: 2 PR 67s, I MS 65, I PR64 and one-testing whether colorful, but mottled, toning might make it on the tilt came back,correctly PR 63.
Thankfully I went the "economy" route :+), but no real surprises. I'll post results on the second wave when I receive them.

Bottom line, however, since there's not a single credible grading service I haven't tried to cross and by far the most ICCS and NGC holdered coins flunked, if I'm going
to drink any grading service's Kool-Aid it will be PCGS hands down.

7Jaguars · May 18, 2014 7:44AM

IMO, PCGS does try to play a bit "snotty" and downgrade crossovers left in the plastic. I say, crack the coin out yourself and send it in rather than in NGC or other plastic. I certainly have had coins to go both ways (up or down) doing that, with similar results at NGC. I have seen blatant errors by both, and grading worse than atrocious.

In balance, I too like the PCGS holders better though. It comes down to the quality of the coin in the plastic rather than the other way around...

coinkat · May 19, 2014 9:36AM

The earlier graded ANACS smaller whites slabs seems to present the best cross-over. I don't cross very often but the few ANACs coins I have tried have crossed or upgraded at PCGS or NGC with the exception of one.

KentuckyJ · May 20, 2014 2:03AM

Unless I am mistaken, Heritage holds a significant stake in the ownership of NGC. Also, NGC some years ago made the business decision to buy preferred TPG status with the ANA. That probably didn't hurt them in their corporate turn around effort.

brg5658 · May 20, 2014 2:13AM

<< Unless I am mistaken, Heritage holds a significant stake in the ownership of NGC. Also, NGC some years ago made the business decision to buy preferred TPG status with the ANA. That probably didn't hurt them in their corporate turn around effort. >>

How does Heritage's financial and business partnership with NGC have anything to do with NGC's grading standards vs. PCGS? I'm not being catty either, I'm curious how you think those two things are even remotely related. Heritage also sells thousands and thousands of PCGS holdered coins annually, and they profit on a buyer's premium based on the final hammer price. I fail to see how Heritage's stake in NGC is relevant to anything related to grading standards.

brg5658 · May 20, 2014 2:19AM

<< Choice of service, or anything, can be religious.

In this context, what matters most is buying the truly nice coins at fair prices. When it comes time to sell, the conditions for best return can be vastly different than when one purchased the coins.

Think of this as an iPhone vs Android argument. Apple came first wit the iPhone. Therefore, it has had a head start in that market -- technology, look-n-feel and marketing. But is it really better than the latest Android smart phone? That's really an opinion. I stay with the iPhone due to two big factors: familiarity and that I'm tied into the iTunes ecosystem (my music/videos/etc). The competing products don't compel me to switch.

For NGC vs PCGS in the world coin market, NGC went big into that market first. That is a fact. So, they get the head start in customer loyalty, marketing, etc. Maybe even grader expertise and experience. But which is better? Who knows, and really who cares -- as long as your coins get the coins they deserve. My choice of service is based on which holder I like better. But, that is second to the coin itself and which company will assign it the grade that I think is appropriate.

When I buy a raw coin, I assign it a grade range that I think is reasonable. Then, I will keep it raw or submit it to a service that I think will present the coin nicely. If I don't get the grade I think is reasonable, then I will try again or try the other service.

If I see a slabbed coin, I will try to grade it as if raw. Then, I will decide what I thin is a fair price based on my personal assessment of the coin. Regardless of the holder. I may try crackout or crossover later for other reasons, but not because I think a service is "better".

A service is "better" to me if it gives me what I want.

EVP >>

I agree with EVP's assessment.

Dogma and blanket statements have no place in TPG discussion. I like the analogy with iPhone and Android, and I also would add this is sort of a Coke/Pepsi discussion. When someone (e.g., the OP) has already made up his/her mind, it doesn't matter how much we discuss or present evidence -- that person will not change their mind no matter how long the litany of responses on a forum.

To the OP -- keep overlooking all non-PGCS coins, that leaves more attractive properly graded coins for the rest of us.

KentuckyJ · May 20, 2014 4:12AM

<< How does Heritage's financial and business partnership with NGC have anything to do with NGC's grading standards vs. PCGS? I'm not being catty either, I'm curious how you think those two things are even remotely related. >>

brg5658, I brought up two factors that may have contributed to NGC turning things around. The "love affair" certainly didn't exist several years ago. Another very smart thing NGC did was to bring Scott Schechter in from Pinnacle Rarities, back in 2005. There are aspects of all this that go beyond who does or does not grade more accurately within any given series. I made no comment on the grading issue. From a strict business point of view, how a TPG grades coins is not always the number one determination of their market success.

So when did this board's love affair with NGC begin? And why?

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