Monument Park is getting watered down

cubfan89

Yankees are going to retire Torre's #6 and give him a plaque. They are also giving at plaques to Goose, Tino Martinez and Paul O'Neil. All very good players though don't get me wrong. Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Berra, O'Neil, Mantle, Ford, Martinez, Munson....they don't fit. In 2015, the Yanks are also honoring Bernie Williams this way with a possible jersey retirement.

LarkinCollector

How long before new Yanks will have a triple digit #?

Ironmanfan

They might as well give a placque to Hal Lanier while they're at it

IMF

cubfan89

Tell me about it. Within the next few years they will be retiring Torre, Williams, Jorge, Rivera and Jeter. Wonder if Shane Spencer will be getting a plaque in Monument by then.

vols1

They have 17 retired numbers already

mattyc_collection

If you're a Yankee fan, you know it's not purely about stats. That's a reductive way to view Monument Park. O'Neill is beloved by many Yankee fans base because of how hard he played the game-- his palpable determination and fire. Personality can engender a lot of good will. Look at the inverse, players like Belle or Dick Allen who put up some gaudy numbers, but were fairly curt, gruff personalities that never clicked with the masses. That said, it's about winning titles-- that's what Yankee fans want, it's the identity of the franchise. And O'Neill, Bernie, and Torre were integral parts of that amazing, veritably dynastic run they enjoyed. The exalted numbers of that rarefied circle (Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, et. al) should not penalize or prohibit other key and beloved contributors from joining the park. It is not a hall of stats, or a hall reserved for only those who can compare to the likes of Ruth. If that were the case, even Jeter doesn't favorably compare to Ruth and company. It's a place to honor those Yankee greats who honored the pinstripes with great play, or great character, or contributed to the legacy of world championships that defines the team.

We should not view the park exclusively through the prism of baseball reference; that would be as myopic as evaluating baseball cards strictly through sticker grades and VCP grids. IMO there's a lot more to be considered.

digicat

<< <i> Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Berra, O'Neil, Mantle, Ford, Martinez, Munson....they don't fit >>



They fit in that they were key players that helped the Yankees win a bunch of rings. A plaque seems like a fine way to honor those guys.

It's not like they're getting monuments.

matthewbschultz83

I find it funny/odd/interesting that in a couple years the smallest uniform number for the Yankees will be 11.

GDM67

Gossage is a Hall of Famer, so I don't think anyone out there is cheapened by his inclusion.

Tabe

<< <i>O'Neill is beloved by the fans base because of how hard he played the game-- his palpable determination and fire. Personality can engender a lot of good will. Look at the inverse, players like Belle or Dick Allen who put up some gaudy numbers, but were fairly curt, gruff personalities that never clicked with the masses. >>


You're not praising Paul O'Neill's personality are you? He played hard, and no doubt was loved by New Yorkers, but he had a sour, whiny personality and won votes for whining and complaining by his fellow players and umpires (the comment from one umpire was something like "Paul O'Neill has never had a strike thrown to him in his entire career that he didn't swing at"). He was a big part of some great teams, won a batting title in New York, put up some very good years, but, please...let's not give him too much credit for his "personality".

mattyc_collection

I know very many fans who loved the fiery way he played; no one person, movie, book, etc., will have all fans and zero detractors. So perhaps some found him otherwise, but I liked his fire and have met many others who feel likewise. I'm sure for every umpire we can find to say something negative, we can find a fan or teammate to say something positive. I am not speaking from the perspective of an O'Neill detractor, but rather as someone who liked what he brought to the team, and shedding light on why those who like him do, beyond personal numbers. To be more accurate, I edited my sentence in the prior post.

JHS5120

Look at any team Hall of Fame and you will find far worse inclusions than Joe Torre, Bernie Williams, Jorge Posada, Marino Rivera and Derek Jeter

cubfan89

Ya but Monument Park is different

Estil

I don't see anything wrong at all with Joe getting a number/plaque (he did win four championships in five years and just barely missed making it five out of six years) and the others you mentioned (one is already a HOFer) sound pretty well qualified to me.

Now the BIG question is are there any Yankees that would be deserving of a monument...Yogi perhaps? Mel Allen? And whatever happened to the original Ruth/Gehrig/Millins monuments from the original (1923-73) Yankee Stadium? Because the current ones are clearly not the originals.

grote15

I would say Torre is definitely deserving. Not really sure about O'Neill, but I would certainly honor him before Tino, who I don't think is deserving, really. Bernie, Mo, and Jeter are no brainers. For Jeter, I would say a monument is not out of the question, both for his performance on the field, the rings, and the classy way he has conducted himself off the field. Definitely the most memorable Yankee, over an extended time frame, since Mantle, imo.

psychump

Wow! Some pretty fine ballplayers! Could make an argument!

New York Yankees Uniform Numbers


New York Yankees Uniform Number 6
Every Yankees Player Who Wore #6

Count Players Who Wore #6 Pic Full Roster
1. Tony Lazzeri 1929 New York Yankees
2. Dusty Cooke 1930 New York Yankees
3. Dusty Cooke 1931 New York Yankees
4. Ben Chapman 1932 New York Yankees
5. Ben Chapman 1933 New York Yankees
6. Tony Lazzeri 1934 New York Yankees
7. Tony Lazzeri 1935 New York Yankees
8. Tony Lazzeri 1936 New York Yankees
9. Tony Lazzeri 1937 New York Yankees
10. Joe Gordon 1938 New York Yankees
11. Joe Gordon 1939 New York Yankees
12. Joe Gordon 1940 New York Yankees
13. Joe Gordon 1941 New York Yankees
14. Joe Gordon 1942 New York Yankees
15. Joe Gordon 1943 New York Yankees
16. Don Savage 1944 New York Yankees
17. Don Savage 1945 New York Yankees
18. Joe Gordon 1946 New York Yankees
19. Bobby Brown 1947 New York Yankees
20. Bobby Brown 1948 New York Yankees
21. Bobby Brown 1949 New York Yankees
22. Bobby Brown 1950 New York Yankees
23. Bobby Brown 1951 New York Yankees
24. Mickey Mantle 1951 New York Yankees
25. Bobby Brown 1952 New York Yankees
26. Andy Carey 1952 New York Yankees
27. Andy Carey 1953 New York Yankees
28. Andy Carey 1954 New York Yankees
29. Andy Carey 1955 New York Yankees
30. Andy Carey 1956 New York Yankees
31. Andy Carey 1957 New York Yankees
32. Andy Carey 1958 New York Yankees
33. Andy Carey 1959 New York Yankees
34. Andy Carey 1960 New York Yankees
35. Deron Johnson 1960 New York Yankees
36. Clete Boyer 1961 New York Yankees
37. Deron Johnson 1961 New York Yankees
38. Clete Boyer 1962 New York Yankees
39. Clete Boyer 1963 New York Yankees
40. Clete Boyer 1964 New York Yankees
41. Clete Boyer 1965 New York Yankees
42. Clete Boyer 1966 New York Yankees
43. Charley Smith 1967 New York Yankees
44. Charley Smith 1968 New York Yankees
45. Roy White 1969 New York Yankees
46. Roy White 1970 New York Yankees
47. Roy White 1971 New York Yankees
48. Roy White 1972 New York Yankees
49. Roy White 1973 New York Yankees
50. Roy White 1974 New York Yankees
51. Roy White 1975 New York Yankees
52. Roy White 1976 New York Yankees
53. Roy White 1977 New York Yankees
54. Roy White 1978 New York Yankees
55. Roy White 1979 New York Yankees
56. Ken Griffey 1982 New York Yankees
57. Mike Pagliarulo 1985 New York Yankees
58. Rick Cerone 1987 New York Yankees
59. Jack Clark 1988 New York Yankees
60. Steve Sax 1989 New York Yankees
61. Steve Sax 1990 New York Yankees
62. Steve Sax 1991 New York Yankees
63. Tony Fernandez 1995 New York Yankees

MyDaughtersNameIsMattingly

MyDaughtersNameIsMattingly

Monument Park is basiclly the Yankees Hall of Fame. O'Neill and Tino are both deserving of plaques. I think most if not all Yankee Fans would agree with this, and really thats what matters.
Bernie IMO deserves to have his number retired. He was a great Yankee in every way not to mention he is the bridge between the lean years of the 80's and early 90's to the dynasty of the late 90's.

Monuments are only given out after you pass away, and Yogi will 100% have one someday. Hopefully a long time from now.

EchoCanyon

Monument Park is the equivalent to say The Mets Hall of Fame. It's for players who have had a huge impact on team.

Retired numbers is a HUGE step and an entirely different level.

I hate the Yankees, but have no problem with these new additions.

TheMick6

Why is it that Jeter is constantly elevated above Berra when people talk about the Yankee greats? Jeter should have a monument? If Berra doesn't than Jeter shouldn't. Berra was a three time MVP, people make an argument for him as the best catcher ever (a very valid one), between Joe D and Mantle's maturing he was THE most important Yankee and what did they do those years they won titles. Jeter was a great Yankee but I just can't see him being thought as more deserving of a monument than Berra. I am constantly seeing lists if greatest Yankees and laugh everytime I see people put Jeter between 3-5 on the list and sometimes number two?! I'd love for someone to give a valid reason he should be any higher than 6th. Great ball player, important piece on great Yankee teams, face of the franchise but worthy of a monument?

JHS5120

<< <i>Why is it that Jeter is constantly elevated above Berra when people talk about the Yankee greats? Jeter should have a monument? If Berra doesn't than Jeter shouldn't. Berra was a three time MVP, people make an argument for him as the best catcher ever (a very valid one), between Joe D and Mantle's maturing he was THE most important Yankee and what did they do those years they won titles. Jeter was a great Yankee but I just can't see him being thought as more deserving of a monument than Berra. I am constantly seeing lists if greatest Yankees and laugh everytime I see people put Jeter between 3-5 on the list and sometimes number two?! I'd love for someone to give a valid reason he should be any higher than 6th. Great ball player, important piece on great Yankee teams, face of the franchise but worthy of a monument? >>




No one will tell you Berra doesn't deserve a monument.

MyDaughtersNameIsMattingly

O'Neill unofficially has his number retired, at least for the time being. In 2008 LaTroy Hawkins wore 21 for a couple of games, and was booed pretty hard as a result. He switched to 22, no one has worn it since.

MyDaughtersNameIsMattingly

IMO the only players that will receive monuments when they pass are Yogi, Jeter, and Rivera. I don't think Whitey Ford will get one.

EchoCanyon

People need to visit the Wiki page on momumnet park.

There are monuments for only 5 players. And plaques for the rest.

TheMick6

I just think Berra gets the shaft when people talk about Yankee greats, they tend to think of him as a awkward guy who just threw out funny lines. I mean the man won three MVP's and almost hit more home runs than he had strikeouts! Who does that? Oh yeah guys like Stan Musial and Teddy Ballgame.

TheMick6

It's probably true about Ford not getting a monument but did the Yankees ever have a better pitcher? I'm sure someone will throw out Clemens but Ford was a lifelong Yankee, had a 690 winning percentage and Stengel would save Ford to face other teams aces. Stengel didn't use Ford the way other pitchers were used in the fifties what happened when Houk took over Ford got more starts and was a 20 game winner and Cy Young. Ford deserves one as much as anyone else.

EchoCanyon

ESPN 50 greatest Yankees has Berra at 6.


1. Ruth
2. Gerhig
3. DiMaggio
4. Mantle
5. Rivera
6. Berra
7. Jeter

TheMick6

I realize those lists are only opinions but again MO ahead of Berra once again I can't see that. MO was the best failed starter ever! I'm only joking with that comment and I dont mean to discredit him. He will go down as the best closer ever but c'mon! Higher than yogi in Yankee lore? I just don't see it. I'd put Jeter over MO at least he was on the field everyday.

TheMick6

Also Ford should be above MO IMO ( only an opinion). I just don't think there's ever been a better Yankee on the mound.

MinorLeaguer

I say Jeffrey Maier gets a plaque too!