Is it really so easy to assume Jordan is the best ever?

PowderedH2O · April 30, 2014 3:08AM

In watching some of the NBA playoffs and listening to sports talk radio, I've heard a few people (most of whom are under 40, I might add) refer to Michael Jordan as the NBA's greatest player ever and that he is the guy that LeBron James is competing with if LeBron is trying to ascend to the ultimate. They say this with a smugness, as if there is no argument whatsoever. I'm not so sure. I saw Wilt Chamberlain play, and Dr. J, Magic, Larry Bird, Jerry West, and Elgin Baylor. I think that Jordan is certainly on the short list of GOAT, but is it really such a slam dunk? Wilt was certainly a more dominant player, and it isn't his fault that the Celtics routinely had a team with EIGHT Hall of Famers on it that kept him from winning more. What do you think?

MGLICKER · April 30, 2014 5:02AM

On a given day and performance, a half dozen players could claim the title of greatest ever.

Jordan was fun to watch with his long and high aerial performance, sadly travelling was rarely called by the cooperative refs.

PSASAP · April 30, 2014 5:17AM

At the age of 40, Jordan averaged 20 points per game. Everyone else on your list was long gone before 40.

MGLICKER · April 30, 2014 5:48AM

<< At the age of 40, Jordan averaged 20 points per game. Everyone else on your list was long gone before 40. >>

and......

by that logic, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens were the hitter and pitcher of all time.

PSASAP · April 30, 2014 6:02AM

Apples and oranges, my friend. My point is that Jordan was great right from the beginning of his career to the very end, and he retired twice and came back, with the same level of competitiveness each time. That's an intangible that the other players on the list didn't have.

MGLICKER · April 30, 2014 6:09AM

Wilt kicks his butt going head to head.

PSASAP · April 30, 2014 6:23AM

Jordan has a better ring collection and a higher ppg average.

MGLICKER · April 30, 2014 6:28AM

<< Jordan has a better ring collection and a higher ppg average. >>

So Jack Nicklaus is then the better golfer than Tiger Woods?

PSASAP · April 30, 2014 6:50AM

I don't follow golf, so I have no opinion on the subject. I saw Wilt play, and in terms of athleticism, he and Jordan were both gifted. But in terms of basketball IQ, competitive desire, and mental toughness, Jordan had Wilt beat by a mile.

telephoto1 · April 30, 2014 6:53AM

I agree that Wilt dominated the game when he played, but his team's failures to win more titles hurt his legacy a bit imo. He's #2 for me behind MJ in the GOAT discussion but there's room for many others.
IMO Jordan got no special pass on traveling, no more so than any other player did. NBA refs rarely called it then and essentially don't call traveling at all anymore unless it's really in-your-face obvious. Dunks seem like they are nothing special anymore either; I always enjoyed MJ doing his thing and watching the slam dunk contest back in the day but now it seems they're all the same. I guess perhaps I'm getting jaded on the NBA. College ball now is more like what the NBA used to be imo.

Edit to add: I equate much of Wilt's career with the early part of MJ's career; he would score his tail off and they'd still lose because his supporting cast wasn't there. I honestly think Wilt was unique to his era; with the exception of someone like Bill Russell there was no one like him until Kareem showed up, and Wilt STILL owned Kareem head to head even though he was injury prone by that time and 10-12 years older.

MGLICKER · April 30, 2014 7:15AM

<< IMO Jordan got no special pass on traveling, no more so than any other player did. NBA refs rarely called it then and essentially don't call traveling at all anymore unless it's really in-your-face obvious >>

My bad, for a while there I though that travelling was a rule violation.

Justacommeman · April 30, 2014 8:06AM

I do not like Michael Jordan. Yes, he was hands down the best player ever.

MJ

lightningboy · April 30, 2014 10:01AM

Wilt kicks his butt going head to head.

Exactly how is Wilt going to get the ball from one end of the court to the other?

MGLICKER · April 30, 2014 10:05AM

<< Wilt kicks his butt going head to head.

Exactly how is Wilt going to get the ball from one end of the court to the other? >>

With great difficulty as he has been deceased for 14 years.

Estil · April 30, 2014 10:11AM

Wilt at one time held nearly every record you could think of (and still holds many) and even led to rule changes so he wouldn't be so over-dominating (like widening "the lane", the 3 second rule, among others) and even at one time thought of quitting early in his career because he got tired of being 4x or even 5x teamed constantly (no joke) and the game wasn't much fun for him. And let's not forget Kareem...all time points leader, 6x MVP, 5x champ, and a sweet Full House cameo. I'd say a VERY good case could be made for either one.

MGLICKER · April 30, 2014 11:11AM

I might give Magic the nod as well in the top player debate.

Mickey71 · April 30, 2014 11:57AM

Yes....there is no discussion needed. MJ was the best. Talent- wise Lebron is way up there also. Here's the problem/the Dallas finals where Lebron had mental problems. There was an issue with a teammate and his mom and he couldn't block it out and play.

And yes....I'm a Knicks fan during the Ewing era.

DIMEMAN · April 30, 2014 12:26PM

<< Wilt kicks his butt going head to head.

Exactly how is Wilt going to get the ball from one end of the court to the other? >>

Not only this.....but MJ would eat him up in one one basketball.

MJ is the best. And there are several pretty close behind him.

The Bulls would have won 8 straight titles if Jordan hadn't decided to go play Baseball! Instead of 3 straight...a 2 year break...and 3 more straight when he cam back.

MGLICKER · April 30, 2014 12:32PM

Agree or disagree, it is good to see a little life on this forum.

DIMEMAN · April 30, 2014 12:58PM

And yes....Jack Nicklas was better than Tiger Woods.

telephoto1 · April 30, 2014 2:19PM

<< 

<< IMO Jordan got no special pass on traveling, no more so than any other player did. NBA refs rarely called it then and essentially don't call traveling at all anymore unless it's really in-your-face obvious >>

My bad, for a while there I though that travelling was a rule violation. >>

The rule book still says it is, but virtually every NBA game I've ever watched has had uncalled traveling violations. I remember watching a game recently where a guy caught a pass near the top of the key, basically changed his pivot foot (should have been called right there) and ran to the hoop at least 3 steps without a dribble. Even the announcer wondered where the call was.

grote15 · April 30, 2014 3:05PM

Jordan, hands down.

Even Dimeman has that one figured out.

Tabe · April 30, 2014 3:12PM

For those wondering about traveling, the NBA actually changed the rules a could years ago to match the way the game was being called. I would be willing to bet most of you don't actually know the rule anymore.

That said, the refs still ignore obvious infractions like changing pivot feet.

bigdcards · April 30, 2014 5:10PM

Oranges hands down. Can't wait to grab a fresh one off the tree in the morning. Might grab a few and make juice. Juicing immediately after picking yields far tastier juice, than supposedly "fresh squeezed" oj from the store. My understanding is that there is a half-life on the nutritional value of fruits and vegetables. So the longer it is off the tree, vine, ect, the less you get out of it.

Chargers49ersTigers · April 30, 2014 10:55PM

If Jordan is the greatest, then I'd rather have Magic. Magic started 1979 as a rookie, and ended the season the team leader, leading his team to a title, and he played all 5 positions in game 6. Magic made everyone around him better from the start. It took Jordan, what, 7 years to get his head out of his butt, and maybe think about that its a team concept? Jordan couldn't win any titles until the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons started getting old. If Jordan was a rookie in 1979, he wouldn't have 6 rings, or pippen to lighten the load to get those 6 rings. Magic was a TEAM leader from beginning to end.

ebaytrader · April 30, 2014 11:10PM

<< Wilt kicks his butt going head to head. >>

The NBA changed the rules of the game because of Chamberlain's play. NO other play could make that claim.

telephoto1 · May 1, 2014 1:42AM

<< If Jordan is the greatest, then I'd rather have Magic. Magic started 1979 as a rookie, and ended the season the team leader, leading his team to a title, and he played all 5 positions in game 6. Magic made everyone around him better from the start. It took Jordan, what, 7 years to get his head out of his butt, and maybe think about that its a team concept? Jordan couldn't win any titles until the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons started getting old. If Jordan was a rookie in 1979, he wouldn't have 6 rings, or pippen to lighten the load to get those 6 rings. Magic was a TEAM leader from beginning to end. >>

One could as easily say that Kareem lightened Magic's workload. You're right; Magic was a great team player, no question...but he never dominated the league. Jordan did, Chamberlain definitely did, but neither had a great supporting cast for a good part of their respective early careers. Jordan and Pippen's style complemented each other but MJ was still scoring 40-50 without him. Unless my research fails me, I have as many scoring titles as Magic does-0. MJ has, I believe, 10. Wilt had 7 in a row.

If we're talking hypotheticals I'd put the Jordan/Pippen Bulls against the 1979 Magic/Kareem Lakers. I'm a huge Kareem fan but no one ever called him fast... and he couldn't consistently keep up the pace that Jordan and company would have set IMO. Wilt? Different story, at least Wilt in his prime anyway. He was big and fairly fast.

So I'll entertain a Jordan/Chamberlain GOAT discussion, but Magic-not so much.

Edit to add...Now, if we're having a greatest team leader discussion, I agree that Magic would definitely be at or near the top of that list.

mlbfan2 · May 1, 2014 6:44AM

<< Magic made everyone around him better from the start. >>

He had better teammates around him right from the start.

<< It took Jordan, what, 7 years to get his head out of his butt, and maybe think about that its a team concept? >>

No, it took him that long to get good teammates.

MGLICKER · May 1, 2014 7:37AM

<< For those wondering about traveling, the NBA actually changed the rules a could years ago to match the way the game was being called. I would be willing to bet most of you don't actually know the rule anymore.

That said, the refs still ignore obvious infractions like changing pivot feet. >>

OK, I'll bite. What are the new rules on travelling?

Seemed that Jordan had the frequent flier pass.

JoeBanzai · May 1, 2014 9:30AM

Wilt was the greatest in my opinion.

Tabe · May 1, 2014 9:33AM

<< 

<< For those wondering about traveling, the NBA actually changed the rules a could years ago to match the way the game was being called. I would be willing to bet most of you don't actually know the rule anymore.

That said, the refs still ignore obvious infractions like changing pivot feet. >>

OK, I'll bite. What are the new rules on travelling?

Seemed that Jordan had the frequent flier pass. >>

Here ya go

Tabe · May 1, 2014 9:37AM

<< If Jordan is the greatest, then I'd rather have Magic. Magic started 1979 as a rookie, and ended the season the team leader, leading his team to a title, and he played all 5 positions in game 6. Magic made everyone around him better from the start. >>

Magic, who didn't even lead his own team in assists his rookie year? The one who joined a team that had Kareem on it? And Jamaal Wilkes, who averaged 20 a game in Magic's rookie year?

Magic joined a team that won 47 games the year before he got there.

Michael joined a team that won 27.

Which guy do you think had the better team around him?

C'mon.

MGLICKER · May 1, 2014 9:52AM

<< 

<< 

<< For those wondering about traveling, the NBA actually changed the rules a could years ago to match the way the game was being called. I would be willing to bet most of you don't actually know the rule anymore.

That said, the refs still ignore obvious infractions like changing pivot feet. >>

OK, I'll bite. What are the new rules on travelling?

Seemed that Jordan had the frequent flier pass. >>

Here ya go >>

....so this is ok now?

Youtube

MGLICKER · May 1, 2014 10:05AM

Great clip. Chamberlain, Cosell and Ali.

It don't mean nuthin!

PSASAP · May 1, 2014 10:18AM

Ali was the greatest, and the funniest. Great clip!

Chargers49ersTigers · May 1, 2014 12:19PM

Jordan=Yawn

telephoto1 · May 2, 2014 2:26AM

<< Jordan=Yawn >>

Gee. You obviously spent a lot of time formulating that argument. LOL

Skin2 · May 2, 2014 10:29PM

<< Jordan=Yawn >>

"Yawn" more appropriately fits in when describing Magic's defense. Magic guarded the other teams' worst back court player, and guarded him poorly. The enduring legacy of Magic Johnson is getting lit up by John Paxon in the Finals. LMAO.

That 'five position' thing with Magic is the most overblown thing in the history of sports...he couldn't even play proper defense at HIS position, let alone all five!

Just because Magic jumped the game at center doesn't mean he played center(defensively). He also did not guard Julius Erving...so the notion of him playing all five positions is pure hyperbole.

Kareem and Wilkes were absolute beasts in that series. Magic had a great series too...despite setting the finals record for most turnovers

In close games for the Lakers, Kareem was their go to guy down the stretch, NOT Magic. It wasn't until the late 80's where Magic finally developed his offensive game where he could be counted on as the man in the final minutes. That is hardly the mark of the greatest player ever! Add his poor defense and guarding the other team's worst offensive player....yeah, no chance for GOAT.

Jordan was a better offensive player than Magic...and it isn't even remotely comparable defensively.

Wilt was great, but for a team's best offensive player to have such a glaring weakness at the free throw line, thus always hampering your team's chances in final minutes...no, he is not better than Michael Jordan.

Jordan, while certainly not slam dunk as some make it out, yes, GOAT.

perkdog · May 3, 2014 12:15AM

First off WTF does GOAT mean?

Secondly Michael Jordan was the best ever, keep in mind its easy to forget how good a guy was after he has been retired for years.

SanctionII · May 3, 2014 6:37AM

GOAT = Greatest Of All Time.

BTW, the only person I consider a GOAT is......................... Mohammad Ali (I remember him in the ring after a victory stating that he is the GOAT).

Estil · May 4, 2014 5:25AM

I'm not so sure about that acronym. Isn't "goat" the opposite of "hero" in the sports world? Or as Charlie Brown often said, "I could've been the hero but instead I'm the goat..." and one comic strip his "man's best friend" really rubbed it in by making goat's horns out of his ears and yelling, "BAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!" It's a wonder Snoop didn't end up in the pound for that!

Though there are some like Dave Henderson (1986 ALCS Game 5; doesn't catch Angels' go ahead home run...but then ties game with home run where he's spin jumping for joy) or Bob Brenly (1986 game where he made FOUR errors in one inning causing his own fans to boo him...but then he later hits the game winning tater) that end up starting out as the goat but then become the hero later.

fiveniner · May 5, 2014 1:32AM

Bill Russell over all.

lightningboy · May 5, 2014 1:46AM

Magic was a TEAM leader from beginning to end.

To Chargers49ersTigers - I was a huge Magic fan from Michigan State through the Lakers. He did make others better around him. And he was usually money in the clutch. Those same things can be said about Jordan as well. And of course Jordan was a much better defensive player. But it seems rather convenient to forget that Magic had the little tiny luxury of a 7 footer who happens to be the most prolific scorer in NBA history, while Jordan won championships with Wil Perdue, Luc Longley and an aging Bill Cartwright. So come on buddy, think before you write.

Tabe · May 5, 2014 2:43AM

<< Bill Russell over all. >>

What's your reason for selecting Russell?

PowderedH2O · May 5, 2014 4:47AM

I would contend that the Celtics could have possibly won a championship in their best years without Russell. They were that deep. No way Chamberlain or Jordan's teams win titles without him.

telephoto1 · May 7, 2014 7:21AM

Wilt was great, but for a team's best offensive player to have such a glaring weakness at the free throw line, thus always hampering your team's chances in final minutes...no, he is not better than Michael Jordan.

This is the precise reason Wilt's #2 on my list behind MJ. If Wilt had been better at the line, no question he's #1. Heck, I almost put him at #1 anyway despite that...

TheCARDKid · May 8, 2014 6:27PM

Jordan was by far a sports legend. In the same breath as Gretzky or Ali. Consider,

-If he didn't retire to play baseball, he could have had potentially 8 NBA titles. Very possible.

-His offense and defense. 10 scoring titles, 9x all defensive first team. I'd like to see the next player do that.

-Winners mentality. I don't think you'll ever see anyone like that.

-72 win season. That may not be broken for a long time, if ever.

I appreciate Jordan and the 90's bulls more now, than I did then. He was on top of the world in 1995 and 96.

corncobb · May 11, 2014 5:22PM

Michael Jordan

Is it really so easy to assume Jordan is the best ever?

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