My Baltimore Coin Show Report

EVillageProwler

Thursday:

I live in central NJ, so I just drive down I-95 straight into Baltimore and arrive around 2:15pm. I have very low expectations for this show, because it seems mostly to be a US-focused show. I slowly make my way to the convention center by 3pm, along the way I think I may have noticed my very first Oriole in that city. Is that irony, tunnel vision, or cluelessness?

I make a beeline to a US dealer to discuss some of my US holdings. Then, I go see friend and esteemed board member TomB because he was nice enough to bring his camera gadgetry to his hotel so he can image my Anglo-Saxon coinage. I sit and chat with him and njcoincrank (he's a great guy underneath his gruff exterior -- and has an extremely sharp eye!) for a while. Then I make my way to see Evan Gale, who is focusing on US and ancients and away from world. Sad. So far, I've gotten done with 3 dealers in about 30 minutes. This is going too fast. Ok, I have to kill time and decided to walk over to see CRO because I wanted to eyeball a couple of Latin American minors. Chatting with him at that moment was James Rick (Atlas Numis), so he says hi to me and I ask him to tell me where his table is.

I sit and ask John (CRO) where is a specific coin that I don't see in his case. It turns out that he doesn't know where it is. Things not looking good for me.

My next stop was Atlas Numismatics, and I know James always -- ALWAYS -- have some eye candy in my areas of real interest. At first, I don't see much that interest me. Then, I remembered that he has a Saxony "Death" Taler in MS63. He shows it to me, and we discuss the coin as well as pricing. It's a lustrous coin, but not really a great coin. I was on the fence, but was considering it because I had low expectations for the show. The price that Jim quoted me seemed very fair. Perhaps too fair. (Dealers don't sell their great stuff on the cheap!)

While keeping that Saxony on the table, my eyes wander to another case where upon it immediately catches a fantastic early Half Crown. It turns out that it's a Charles I (1643?) Oxford 1/2 Crown from the EPN collection, graded MS63 and looking every bit deserving of the florid description from that auction.

At this point, I should mention that when I go to a show, I like to find my ONE COIN from that entire show. For Baltimore, I expected to buy a basic nice German States or Austrian Taler or high grade minor. I was not expecting too find a great coin.

Anyway, back to the Chaz I 1/2 Cr...

I ask to see the 1/2 Crown, and it has typical frayed edges and such imperfections, but the surfaces are very lustrous. Factor in the fact that that coin was birthed under the duress of the British Civil War, and I feel lucky to view it. I ask James for a price, and it is substantially more than what he paid from the HA EPN auction, at this point the conversations I'm having with myself and also with him get interesting. And this may be where this story gets interesting too.

The coin sold for $4.4k (all in), but he was prepared to go up to $Xk, at which point he'd ask for some typical dealer markup. He quotes me $Xk, meaning that in his mind he is foregoing the typical 15% to 25% markup for a coin at that price level. In the conversation I'm having with myself, we (I and I) agree that how much a dealer pays for a coin is immaterial; if the dealer overpaid, I certainly will not feel obligated to give him a profit on top of his mistake. So, I tell James that I need to think about financing and stuff, and ask him to hold the coin for me overnight. He tells me that he's leaving Friday at noon. (The conversation inside my head is really churning now, and will continue to do so until roughly 24 hours later.)

I leave Atlas Numismatics and start to think about dinner, which my friends and I end up at Ruth's Chris just past the wharf and inland a bit.

After dinner, I am dead tired but go to see TomB in his room with my stash of hammered coins. While there, he joins in the conversation with me and me about the Chaz I 1/2 Crown. Images get snapped, and I go back to my hotel and pass out.

Friday:

I get up early to go to the LSCC meeting at 9am. I've no clue what they discussed at that meeting because I was still engrossed in conversation with me about the Chaz I 1/2 Crown. At 10am, I make a beeline to Atlas' table and ask James if he can engage with me some more about that coin. When he got free, we sat down and took a deep dive into a few key issues. First, I made it clear that I don't care what a dealer pays for a coin, and that I only care what a coin is worth.

Then, we launch into the second important issue: how much is that coin worth? He says it is the finest he's ever seen. Without a doubt, James Rick is FAR MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE than I. (I'm not just being modest, btw!) But, what does "finest he's ever seen" really mean? Anyway, to my eye, that coin is certainly an extraordinarily nice specimen. So we agree that that coin is special. Then, he pulls out his laptop and looks up many data points and compares them to Spink book valuation. Most of the data is just too scattered to form a conclusion, but his point to me is that he doesn't really know what that coin is worth because at that quality level it simply is too thinly traded. It's not like a 93-S Morgan in VF to low MS where the price ranges are well established. Who knew that the EPN Alfred Londonia penny would fetch that much money?!?

I concluded my conversation with James by telling him that I will get back to him soon about my efforts to ascertain if I can afford the coin. I leave for my room to take a nap. He leaves the show. (He has someone manning their table -- Jeremy Bostwick formerly of CNG.)

I come back in the afternoon knowing that I have been able to work out my financing issues, and go to Atlas again to make a down payment. Jeremy is not there, but the coin is ON DISPLAY again. Aghast, I email James stating in no uncertain terms that I want the coin and am trying to make a down payment. He responds by having Jeremy pull the coin. Whew.

Now let's discuss what just happened...

Many folks will think I overpaid for the coin. Let's say the markup is a whopping 50% (I don't know any ethical dealer with that kind of typical markup, and am not suggesting anything inappropriate about Atlas -- in fact, I would buy from James at any time!), so that means that the coin should be offered at $6,600. The price to me is substantially more than that, but less than how much the coin would've been offered at if James had paid $Xk for it.

So, did I overpay or did I get lucky and accidentally get a chance to buy the coin for less than I might have had to? I don't know. I've decided to focus on the simple fact that I know own another great "keeper" specimen that isn't actually beyond my budget (by much).

Anyway, I walk away from Atlas thinking I had secured my ONE COIN of the show, and it's a doozy of a coin. OMG - I was one happy camper. If you want to see images from HA site:




I have a routine when in Baltimore -- every Friday for dinner, I go to this special place for Blue Crabs with Chesapeake Bay seasoning. Beer, paper, mallet and fingers all at the ready.

Saturday:

I plan to leave Baltimore around 11:30am, so that leaves me around one hour or so to walk the floor. I stop by Evan (Aspen Park), but he was busy. I stop by CRO, and he was not there. I stop by Atlas again, and Jeremy was busy. I decided to go to Teller's booth, even though I knew I'd regret it. Anyway the guy manning the table was chatting with another dealer. I politely ask to see a coin, and he responds by saying he needs a couple of minutes. I wait. Then I leave. I had serious interest in that coin too. Oh well.

Somehow, I missed the 1000's aisle the previous two days. I make way to Tom Cederlind's table to chat with Michael -- nice guy. I always enjoy by brief chats with him. Anyway, I make my way to his table and he pulls out the tray of interest to me. (He knows what I like.) I spot a major coin for my Anglo-Saxon collection: a portrait Edward the Elder S-1084 penny in "near EF". The head is weakly struck, but not inordinately so for the issue. The surfaces are very nice, and the eye appeal too. He and I talk about several coins, and that S-1084 in particular. It is nearing 11am, when I should leave the show to go back to my room to finish packing. All of a sudden, he throws out a nice price, nice terms and even lets me take the coin home that day. He didn't even want a check that day, but I write him a $1k check anyway. I leave even happier than I thought I had a right to be.

I arrive home 3 hours later knowing that I had secured TWO GREAT COINS for my collection. From now on, I will not have such low expectations of the Baltimore show (for world stuff in my areas of interest).

From the dealer's insert:

Silver Penny, 23 mm, 1.55 gm. Diademed bust of king left; Moneyer's name in two lines. BMC --- (type iii, but this coin was minted by a new moneyer for the reign). *EADVVEARD REX // ANDR/EAS MO (separated by 3 crosses in a line, with 3 crosses on top and 3 pellets below)

[New image from the seller -- thanks to OriginalDan for his help with the previous image]

MacCrimmon

Great report, and great looking 1/2 crown, although I do wish NGC had mounted that coin slightly off rotation so as to not have a prong slap against that flan protrusion....eeek

bidask

Great writeup......thanks!

MrEureka

I also noticed the Charles I Halfcrown at the show and considered pricing it. (I have a few, and this one looked like it would fit in nicely with the others.) Decided not to, only because I've bought myself a few too many presents lately.

FWIW, there's a 5 volume set of books describing this series by die variety, written by Maurice Bull and published about 5 years ago. The production run was extremely limited. Anyone with a serious interest in the series should track down a set ASAP, before it becomes impossible. I'd suggest checking with DNW first, as they were the distributors, and they might still have some.

EVillageProwler

Folks,

I wanted to write that it's typically my practice not to claim ownership (or post images) of coins unless I truly own it. I must make an exception in this case because I wanted to write my show report, and the entire story pretty much centered around the chase for my ONE COIN for the show. (You can see below why I do the ONE COIN approach -- because of something the esteemed MrEureka said to me once.) But if you look at the car purchasing model, it's common for a person to lease or take out a 3-to-5 year loan. Then, same day, drive the car off the lot and to show it off to as many friends and family members as possible as quickly as possible.

MacCrimmon,

That little outcropping is pretty solid-looking and doesn't look like it'll fall off easily. The way they positioned the coin, it looks like it covers the outcropping somewhat.

Andy,

It's nice to know that that coin also caught your eye. I feel validated somewhat. So, now, the 64 thousand dollar question is: how does one price it? Let's assume it's not a rare die marriage or die state. Assume there's no Logies or Miller or Logan trying to put together an entire set by die marriage. I'm going to assume that at the EPN auction James priced it at a level that he truly felt he can then sell at a fair profit. So that became his max number for that sale. The question is how one figures that number out? He showed me a bunch of data, then used his instinct. My guess is that his instinct would probably have placed him near the ball park of what he can sell it for.

You told me to shoot for greatness. You said that to me nearly 2 years ago at CICF. Well, how does one price (near-)great coins? It would be very helpful for me to know, because this will have a direct impact on my collecting model.

EVP

desslok

Hi EVP,

I've faced the same question myself several times. I reached a conclusion that what a coin is worth to me may sometimes be different than what it might be worth to someone else. I often paid above and beyond market value for a desirable piece that I wanted, because the alternative was to walk away without the coin, and wait who-knows-how-long for the next chance to own a similar piece, if ever. I'm not in the business to make money, I'm a collector.

If you're happy with the item, and if it's something that you can't easily get another one for a better price, then you did good. In my opinion, at least.

EVillageProwler

<< <i>I've faced the same question myself several times. I reached a conclusion that what a coin is worth to me may sometimes be different than what it might be worth to someone else. I often paid above and beyond market value for a desirable piece that I wanted, because the alternative was to walk away without the coin, and wait who-knows-how-long for the next chance to own a similar piece, if ever. I'm not in the business to make money, I'm a collector.

If you're happy with the item, and if it's something that you can't easily get another one for a better price, then you did good. In my opinion, at least. >>



Thanks. I'm of the same opinion, but it still helps to know how to price these things anyway. If a coin is worth X, I might not mind paying 1.3X to 1.5X (I'm just throwing out fake numbers) if I factor in the opportunity cost, eye appeal and other sundry issues. But, I might mind paying 2X. In any case, it is important to know how to price the coins that we want to buy. Or, at least have some basic idea of their value.

The portrait Edward the Elder penny is an important piece for my collection, but also represents an important opportunity cost for me too. Despite my woeful image, the coin itself is quite nice. And, the dealer priced it at less than full retail with generous terms because I'm pretty certain that it's a consignment piece and that the consignor is ok with such latitude (this is just a gut feel based on various other tidbits of info that I have that are unwritten in this story).

EVP

pruebas

<< <i>Hi EVP,

I've faced the same question myself several times. I reached a conclusion that what a coin is worth to me may sometimes be different than what it might be worth to someone else. I often paid above and beyond market value for a desirable piece that I wanted, because the alternative was to walk away without the coin, and wait who-knows-how-long for the next chance to own a similar piece, if ever. I'm not in the business to make money, I'm a collector.

If you're happy with the item, and if it's something that you can't easily get another one for a better price, then you did good. In my opinion, at least. >>


Agreed.

Especially if you have (paper) gains on other coins in the collection. Not every piece in a collection needs to stand alone price wise.

MrEureka

There's no such thing as the "right" price for a special coin. The best you can do is know which coins truly are irreplaceable - that's the hardest part - and to know how crazy the prices of other irreplaceable coins can (and cannot) get. The more data points you gather, the more comfortable you can get paying prices in uncharted territory, and knowing when it's best to reluctantly walk away.

EVP - If you're ever passing through my part of the world, let me know and I'll show you a few half crowns.

coinkat

Interesting Half Crown discussion. Pricing these are a challenge for many reasons. It is really difficult to establish a surviving population based on condition rarity. Without having a decent handle on condition rarity, it becomes harder to place a reasonable valuation.

EVillageProwler

Opening post updated with new image of Edward the Elder penny. Thanks again to OriginalDan (and Swampboy) for offering to help.

EVillageProwler

Guys - I took more pictures of my coin. Again, using my iPhone 5, but this time with different lighting and height conditions. I only used PS Elements to crop, stitch and use 'unsharpened mask', but not anything else. Not bad, don't you think?

Here is my 1000x500 px version (comments on my imaging welcome -- but note that I am using my iPhone 5):

SYRACUSIAN

<< <i>Interesting Half Crown discussion. Pricing these are a challenge for many reasons. It is really difficult to establish a surviving population based on condition rarity. Without having a decent handle on condition rarity, it becomes harder to place a reasonable valuation. >>




Interesting is an understatement IMHO, because the discussion went further than the half crown, and was much more about how to price an exceptional coin. Most of the things that I believe have already been said. Perhaps my only small contribution, would be to try to reach a conclusion on its future value (say in 5 years from now, for such a super rare coin), based on whatever data exists about its value during the past 20 years with 3-5 year breaks or whenever it appeared on the market last time and the time before that if it's that rare.

EVP, I too share the ONE COIN mentality, my whole collection is built around this principle. The only thing I've stopped believing is that I might never get the chance to purchase it again. Even if it's true (which applies to an infinitely small number of world coins), at this point of my life, I might lose some sleep over it, but I won't be seriously ill from non-buyer's remorse. I believe that every single one of us, needs at a certain point to make that psychological step forward, and put things into their right perspective. Sometimes, one might have to spend some time under very different circumstances than the ones he's used to, or take a long break from the hobby by hanging out with entirely different people to see things more clearly. Most professional dealers who are collectors as well, have made this psychological step forward, and have demystified 99.9% of the coins, if only because they've handled them almost all at one point or another. There are very few exceptions to confirm this rule, a great example of which is MrEureka.

nicholasz219

Coming from the lower end of the pricing spectrum, I feel sort of jealous of all of the coins that a lot of you fellow collectors can afford that I can not. But after being sort of a sore loser and being uninvolved for a few years, I began collecting anew so to speak in collecting in new under appreciated areas where a reasonable challenge for my price range exists. The fulfillment, as you know, is in the chase or in finding value both unrecognized or unappreciated by others as well as the completion of sets.

For me, the same principles that you are speaking about concern me as well. Is a coin worth 1.3x, 1.5x or 2.5x like EVP has stated? Is 2.5x for example extremely excessive markup or is it relatively low considering the piece? Am I buying several coins from the same dealer where he is giving me a break on some other pieces and does the break mitigate the markup on the one choice piece? Do I feel like I am being gouged at any price? Is the opportunity to purchase the coin in question one of a kind or can I select from a hundred other examples elsewhere at my leisure? Is it an issue that is regularly suspect and would I rather buy the piece from a trusted dealer at 2.0x rather than 1.3x from an unknown?

My only thought against buying a coin in terms of price is only to not buy a coin at a price which you guaranteeing yourself a loss if you must resell in a reasonable timeframe in the future. Dimitri brings that sort of guideline to light when he talks about looking at data points of a piece coming up for sale every 3-5 years and getting a baseline value of its worth so you know what the average or possibly "true" market value may be so you are not immediately heading under water on a coin.

Since I do not get to travel to shows outside of Chicago and I do not have any local dealers, I bring a budget to each show and try my best to stay within it. I give myself some wiggle room to purchase coins that I think I would not be able to find at the right price, from a dealer I like doing business with, or in the condition I want outside of the show. I also give myself some "discount" in my brain on a coin at a show if I factor in auction buyer juice and shipping costs as well. If you really want to get yourself up in arms, think of all of the juice you have paid on coins purchased through auctions, the bay and shipping costs over the years and then imagine what that dollar amount would buy you in terms of a coin. Even on my low end of buying I would have a nice Aethelred penny myself right now.

nicholasz219

Also, I forgot to mention how much I like these type of posts. Not only for the show reviews of shows that I can not attend, but also to see what you folks are up to and to have these sorts of conversations. I think that the best way to help yourself clarify your thinking about something is to have to explain it to someone else, so these posts are extra instructive for me, especially coming from veterans of the hobby like yourselves.

EVillageProwler

nicholasz219 - if convenient, please post a pic of your Aethelred coin. I'd love to see it.

Dimitri - yes, nearly all coins will resurface again in my remaining lifetime. In my quest for that truly keeper coins, I feel that Baltimore is a lesser show for those with world coins. That is why I hoped for that ONE great coin. From CICF and NYINC, I usually walk away with a handful of keeper coins. (I'm tapped out financially, so will not go to CICF this year. Hopefully June Baltimore will bring a nice keeper coin for me -- doesn't have to be expensive.)

Andy - I would love to see your half crowns some day.

STLNATS

Interesting discussion.

In thinking about it, I agree that it's all about your individual collecting approach/strategy so there's no single right price for everyone. Not that I'm unwilling to use an appeal to market as a negotiating tool, of course. But, my primary criteria is what a purchase will bring to my collection and how much pain (money) I'm willing to suffer versus the equally real pain if I miss an opportunity for a few or even a lot of bucks. Market price is just a starting point to think about a purchase and a multiple of market doesn't really enter into the process at all (for me).

As an example, I also collect currency and while I've reached (ie overpaid) for a few coins, it's been more typical on the currency side. My post on the currency forum yesterday about a NEWP is a good example. $ involved are quite a bit lower than EVP's purchase, but the principle is the same, I think, and it's the same approach I've done for pricier items. My NEWP is a key piece of a series I'm been aggressively collecting over over a decade. I've documented 70 unique varieties, and I was down to 3 "holes" when one of the magic 3 popped up on ebay with a start bid of $85 or thereabouts. While I'd upgraded a number of my notes over the period, this was the first opportunity to fill a hole since 2009 so represented a real tragedy if I didn't get it. It is a low grade note, probably could be resold for no more than $50-60 in a pinch. No one else bid so I got it at the start price. The secret is that I had a backup esnipe bid for many multiples of the start bid even though I never expect to see daylight at the max, nor frankly at even the current price, if it had to be resold. Sure I'd have b*tched and moaned if I'd paid the max, but that would have been mostly for show - the satisfaction (or as an economist would say, utility) of filling that hole was worth the potentially inflated cost. And I used exactly the same thought process to rationalize "overpaying" for a couple of 5 figure purchases over the years as well as to rationalize passing on a few others.

But that's just what worked/works for me. And, perfectly fine and even significant collections can be put together with a more "value" oriented approach, especially if one is patient and has a bit of luck.

Zohar

I tend to focus on value unless its a coin I know that I will not see again. I want to make sure that if I need to sell, there is a reduced chance of taking a hit.

EVillageProwler

Too much verbiage on price versus value. I just need someone to say "yes, you did the right thing".

But seriously, I plan to hold this indefinitely. No need to sell. I still have lots tied up in US that will go before this, plus my sundry oddball world stuff.

marcmoish

hey fantastic report - love it - will veer off topic for a moment and bring up something and I don't mean to undermine you EVP or the purchase as its a fantastic piece..yes a doozy of a coin for sure regardless but I so don't agree with the grade and its so AU at best I don't know where and how ATS could have graded it MS63.
I mean even EPN himself graded it EF !!
Can anyone shed more light on this huge discrepancy?


Another point you mentioned about price that many will think you overpaid...etc.
imho I don't think it is anyone's biz whether they agree with what you paid...... You paid you know is a true value or price that you believe is correct.
As a long time collector and expert in that you should have no problem paying what you want for coins that you want.
It makes no difference what mark up was or not taken - that's not our business either.
If a dealer can make $ on something who the heck are we to question that. Unsure where that came from altogether - A seller has a right to ask whatever he wants. If the buyer agrees its a sale.
Why should coins be different that antiques or art or a condo in South Beach for that matter?


You have an amazing collection I bet one of these days I will meet up with you in central Jersey for tea

EVillageProwler

Marc,

That EF grade was from the seller, not buyer. It's also a British EF, not US. That typically translates to an NGC or PCGS 55 to 62, but I've also gotten 63 from a British EF before. It's roughly equivalent to one step below FDC, which is roughly equivalent to a 65 or higher.

When I search out my hammered pennies, I usually look for "conservative" British dealers and get "near EF" quality coins because those coins translate to the MS-ish quality that I prefer.

In this case, it's important to know both systems -- because a British EF may have different key attributes than an US mint state piece, or if it gets a net grade.

I also spent a lot of time talking to an Italian dealer who used to grade for PCGS. So, from him, I've gotten some familiarity with their system too and how it translates to ours.

EVP

brg5658

<< <i>Marc,

That EF grade was from the seller, not buyer. It's also a British EF, not US. That typically translates to an NGC or PCGS 55 to 62, but I've also gotten 63 from a British EF before. It's roughly equivalent to one step below FDC, which is roughly equivalent to a 65 or higher.

When I search out my hammered pennies, I usually look for "conservative" British dealers and get "near EF" quality coins because those coins translate to the MS-ish quality that I prefer.

In this case, it's important to know both systems -- because a British EF may have different key attributes than an US mint state piece, or if it gets a net grade.

I also spent a lot of time talking to an Italian dealer who used to grade for PCGS. So, from him, I've gotten some familiarity with their system too and how it translates to ours.

EVP >>



FDC (at least in my dealings with UK dealers) is almost always only used for proofs. I more often see AU/UNC for what would come in at MS65 and above here in the states for non-proof coins. Though they use the term UNC very sparingly.

I have purchased a few "EF+" coins from David Stuart (he uses "minus" and "plus" denotations -- most would call this gEF) -- and these coins almost always come in between MS62 and MS64.

Another difference -- again, in my experiences -- is that grading in the UK is much more about the strike completeness -- even if a coin clearly never circulated, has complete luster bloom, but is weakly struck -- many will call it EF. Here in the states a coin like that at NGC or PCGS can easily grade out as MS -- the strike weakness being a detriment to gem (65+), but fine in coins graded MS63/64ish.

EVillageProwler

Yeah, I noticed that the Brits use UNC very sparingly. I saw a coin -- online image only, so caveat emptor -- that looked possibly 62 to 63, but called "near UNC".

I know a British dealer with a Commonwealth Crown (Shield, not Cromwell) graded EF that looks from the image to be 63-ish. I've been tempted by that for some time, but afraid to execute due to my fear on how it'll grade out. That dealer also had a Cromwell 1/2Cr in EF that might have trace high point lightness. (But, omg, that 1/2Cr is nice looking!)

EVP

PBRat

What a great thread, and two great coins. Thanks for posting.

As for your pricing dilemma ... you used all the information at your disposal, and decided to purchase at $X. You said you plan to keep the coin indefinitely, and you seem quite excited about the purchase. At this stage, price/value shouldn't matter. Yes, you did the right thing.

But, I'll continue with a different approach. With the $X you spent on this coin, what other coins will you have to let pass? Is that one medieval England penny? Two? 10? If opportunity arises, and your money is tied up in this coin, will the lost opportunity exceed the purchase pleasure of this coin?

I really need to get myself to a big coin show. Someday.

Paul

EVillageProwler

Paul,

Interesting twist... At the time, I was considering both types of opportunity costs: I was essentially doing a comparison between the Chaz I 1/2Cr versus a pretty darn special coin in the upcoming HA CICF auction. I ended up choosing the Chaz I 1/2Cr because I felt this coin represents better value than that other piece.

For the past six months or so, I've been scouring every available resource on Stuart and interregnum issues. Upon seeing the EPN Chaz I 1/2Cr in hand, I felt it was more special than that other, upcoming, unnamed piece. And, seeing the HA price estimate and projecting how much I think that coin would bring based on recent results of comparables, I was pretty certain that the upcoming piece would probably cost me at least almost as much as how much the Chaz was priced at.

I hadn't wanted to offer this bit of the story before because I wasn't sure until now that I'd be fully out of CICF. (I have to tell my Italian dealer buddy that I can't have dinner with him next Friday.)

If you ever decide to go to CICF, NYINC or any other US show, let me know.

EVP

SYRACUSIAN

<< <i>Too much verbiage on price versus value. I just need someone to say "yes, you did the right thing".

>>




Of course you did the right thing.

I just couldn't resist adding an opinion in one of the greatest threads I've read in months. And thanks for the fantastic write up on the show in your OP.




<< <i>



I tend to focus on value unless its a coin I know that I will not see again. I want to make sure that if I need to sell, there is a reduced chance of taking a hit. >>




Z., at your young age, how often have you come across coins that you think or that you think that you know you will not see again? I'm not being sarcastic at all, pls do not misunderstand my intentions. It's just that quite often, we tend to put coins in the "never to see one again" category, for which such a heavy statement simply does not apply.Time, patience, experience, and hey, an extreme financial crisis such as the one Greece has found itself for the past 4-5 years, tend to bring amazing coins in the market, several of which hadn't been seen for sale since 1979. This is why I believe that both collectors and auctioneers tend to overuse this expression about some truly rare, yet not unique world coins.


STLNATS, I'm a currency collector too, albeit not a very serious one. I will eventually post an OT topic and ask how many members here collect world or US currency as well.

Zohar

Dimitri - I truly appreciate the insight. Question is what if you are not able to purchase the dream coin when presented at the highest grade (personal financial constraint or someone more eager bidding on an auction)? Maybe it is better explained through by example - a few years back a forum member and good friend offered me a 1632 Leopold V Taler at NGC MS-66 knowing that it is right up my alley as a core piece at what I found to be a fair price (even though a large cash outlay). I did not hesitate. I then see the same piece at MS-66 (different die variety) and decide to purchase it as well. Now, how many could be out there at that level? Probably a few more. I took the risk of these being the best I could find for the time being and pushed myself financially within reason. Had the price been higher I may have declined. There were other top of the market coins I declined as I found them being way overpriced. Interestingly, prior to purchasing the MS-66, I had owned an MS-63 which was a very nice coin, and I ended up selling it to the next "Zohar" of a few years back who was looking for a mint state piece. I do not mind the upgrade path buying a lesser coin rather than aim for the best as for me it is part of the learning and tactical part of the set build up.

To conclude, there is a limit to how much I will pay for the honor of buying the finest coin, as again, part of me does always play defense should a financial crisis or a need to sell arise making it difficult to recoup the investment so there is a price to everything. I look back at my ancestry and they had seen how assets can devalue, appreciate or be taken away. I do look at such scenarios in my decision making process as at the end of the day beside being a great hobby, it entails a financial investment within it.

SYRACUSIAN

Z., wonderful example and great approach to the hobby from every point of view. I retract my earlier comment after such a reply. This thread is getting better and better.

EVillageProwler

Zohar - I think your "defensive" posture is appropriate. Your question of "how many is out there" is wise, because you are buying world coins using US grading standards. The truth is, there are probably huge numbers of pristine pieces tied up in old-time European cabinets that we've no clue about, and we've no clue how they'll grade out using US TPG standards.

Unless you're a uber-wealthy tycoon, I think being "defensive" is a good posture for all of us to slightly varying degrees.

JMHO.

EVP

nicholasz219

EVP,

Sorry, I was being facetious about having an Aethelred penny. I was saying that if I had all of the shipping costs back from all of the coins I have purchased via the internet or mail order, I would have a very nice penny indeed.

Sorry.

Nick