Why does '71 Baseball Get a Pass on Vertical Centering?
PaulMaul
Posts: 4,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
I bid on a bunch of '71's from bbuckner's set break last night. I was trying to pick and choose the PSA 8's that I thought were really nice examples. In scrutinizing tons of 8's I noticed again how lax vertical centering requirements seem to be for '71's. There are a ton of 8's out there that look like this:
I guess the theory is that somehow the eye appeal is less affected for this set than others (like 1975) where vertical centering seems to be measured very strictly. I just don't understand how 75/25 or 80/20 centering is allowed for an 8 under any circumstances, but it seems to happen often.
I guess the theory is that somehow the eye appeal is less affected for this set than others (like 1975) where vertical centering seems to be measured very strictly. I just don't understand how 75/25 or 80/20 centering is allowed for an 8 under any circumstances, but it seems to happen often.
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Comments
<< <i>Actually, PSA's published centering requirements have gotten less stringent over the past 5 years. When this card was graded, a PSA 8 supposedly could have centering no worse than 65/35. The cutoff now is supposedly 70/30 (though few 70/30 cards actually get 8's in reality). >>
The published grading standards have not changed since at least 1997, which was the oldest archived copy of their site I could find.
PSA's published grading standards, as of 3/17/2014:
"NM-MT 8: Near Mint-Mint
...the card can exhibit the following: a very slight wax stain on reverse, slightest fraying at one or two corners, a minor printing imperfection, and/or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 65/35 to 70/30 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse."
PSA published grading standards, from their website on 2/17/1997:
"NM-MT 8: Near Mint-Mint.
...the card can exhibit the following: A very slight wax stain on reverse, slightest fraying at one or two corners, a minor printing imperfection, and/or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 65/35 to 70/30 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse."
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>i may be wrong (i collect 71 but am no expert like some on this board) but 50/50 T/B cetering is not measured from top of letters to edge on top side... the bottom border to edge distance is short, but not that short... i have a fair amount of 8s recently graded as well as "Stick" in a 9... i'll try to scan a few tonight. >>
This is how I have always viewed it as well. On cards with 3 defined borders and 1 "undefined" border, I view a perfectly centered card as 1 where all 3 defined borders are the same thickness, disregarding the undefined border.
<< <i>This is how I have always viewed it as well. On cards with 3 defined borders and 1 "undefined" border, I view a perfectly centered card as 1 where all 3 defined borders are the same thickness, disregarding the undefined border. >>
not to tit for tat but that is a great way of putting it -
75's make it even more fun as the bottom is not defined either...
<< <i>This is how I have always viewed it as well. On cards with 3 defined borders and 1 "undefined" border, I view a perfectly centered card as 1 where all 3 defined borders are the same thickness, disregarding the undefined border. >>
+1
bobsbbcards SGC Registry Sets
<< <i>
This is how I have always viewed it as well. On cards with 3 defined borders and 1 "undefined" border, I view a perfectly centered card as 1 where all 3 defined borders are the same thickness, disregarding the undefined border. >>
I can see arguing that an OC card looks more esthetically pleasing based on this logic. I personally can't see defining it that way. I'm going to look at all the images I can find of 9s to see how they look.
The first card I posted must be taller and/or narrower than it should be, I think. Also the space between the player name and photo seems to vary from card to card.
Ebay is littered with plenty of inconsistant PSA 8's.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>
<< <i>i may be wrong (i collect 71 but am no expert like some on this board) but 50/50 T/B cetering is not measured from top of letters to edge on top side... the bottom border to edge distance is short, but not that short... i have a fair amount of 8s recently graded as well as "Stick" in a 9... i'll try to scan a few tonight. >>
This is how I have always viewed it as well. On cards with 3 defined borders and 1 "undefined" border, I view a perfectly centered card as 1 where all 3 defined borders are the same thickness, disregarding the undefined border. >>
I understand how you might view it that way, but I don't see how the centering can be numerically determined based on this view.
1970 OPC baseball frequently have cards that get a t/b oc pass with visible cut lines such as this one for example. I've seen some with higher grades than the one I linked but can't find them easily at the moment. Either way, I've seen 7's with this same type of centering as the one linked here.
Also, I think 1973 topps hockey is the absolute worst culprit for notoriously getting a vertical centering pass, with tons of examples that look like this Orr card. 1973 Topps hockey is one of the worst sets for straight from the factory quality based on my experience. The main thing with these is that if they had made all the cards have the same color on the border, you'd have a hard time noticing some of the factory centering flaws in many cases. They still have tons and tons of fish eyes and other print defects on front though.
Not that it makes it look better.
<< <i>I'd say it does. If we assume the the right and left are 50/50 then the bottom is easily 30 of either one of the side
Not that it makes it look better. >>
Can you explain your calculations here? I'm not getting it.
<< <i>Horrible (unless of course it's yours dave, then its great
You know me pretty well--do you think it's mine??
If you owned that card it would be on your curb waiting for the next trash pickup.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Centering is just one aspect of the grade. I'm not trying to excuse cards that are seemingly poorly centered for the grade, but I do know that many collectors overemphasize the centering aspect at the expense of other attributes not as readily apparent like surfaces issues, which don't show up all the time in scans, but are just as part of the PSA grading process. I think much of it comes down to personal opinion and what you personally favor in a card. >>
<< <i>Very politically correct Grote but those examples are brutal. They have been ridiculously tough on 71s as of late. >>
I wasn't really referring to the cards that David posted, Brian, but just as a point in general when it comes to centering and the grade.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>Centering is just one aspect of the grade. I'm not trying to excuse cards that are seemingly poorly centered for the grade, but I do know that many collectors overemphasize the centering aspect at the expense of other attributes not as readily apparent like surfaces issues, which don't show up all the time in scans, but are just as part of the PSA grading process. I think much of it comes down to personal opinion and what you personally favor in a card. >>
Thank you, thank you--I'll be here all week.
But I'm still waiting for that PM, David, LOL..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>But I'm still waiting for that PM, David, LOL.. >>
Hey, that's my line lol!!
I'm still waiting for you to reply to my email from two nights ago!!
<< <i>
<< <i>But I'm still waiting for that PM, David, LOL.. >>
Hey, that's my line lol!!
I'm still waiting for you to reply to my email from two nights ago!!
Says the guy who's recycling my zzzz emoticon bit, lol...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Says the guy who's recycling my zzzz emoticon bit, lol...
You're a good teacher lol!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Says the guy who's recycling my zzzz emoticon bit, lol...
You're a good teacher lol!! >>
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>They have been ridiculously tough on 71s as of late. >>
I now have about 85 7s that I thought were sure 8s. And I don't see any point in trying to resubmit, because I think the current standards, draconian as they are, are being applied pretty consistently. If ANY white is visible on more than one corner, it's a 7. It's just hard to accept that when you see what used to pass for an 8. I understand that standards can evolve over time, but some consistency among all available cards is necessary for valuation to be meaningful.
Sharp card, though, regardless of the grade.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Matt
<< <i>Hahn is beautifully centered, slight tilt, but top left corner is likely the reason it's graded NM.
Sharp card, though, regardless of the grade. >>
Like everything about grading, it's a question of degree. I feel the corners on the Hahn and many of the others I subbed are comparable to existing 8s. But I guess the graders don't agree.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>You have a valid point, David, but you should know by now that grading is subjective and that some cards are going to be lower end for the grade while others are going to be higher end for the grade. That is just the nature of the beast. You said yourself that there were some cards in your last sub that graded higher than you thought, so it cuts both ways. Enjoy the set and try not to get discouraged by the outliers. >>
I agree with this. Also keep in mind that we all tend to view our submissions with bias (which can add grade points in our minds). Moreover, the subjective component cannot be understated. If all of us were asked to grade 100 cards today, and then asked to grade those same 100 cards six months down the road, one can bet there will be a good number of cards the same grade with outliers on both ends of the scale showing differences. As they say, it is what it is!
Matt
<< <i>My comments are not intended as the usual "sour grapes" type of complaint. Rather, in spending $1000 on grading fees I would obviously like to make as informed a decision as possible as to what I should submit in hopes of getting the grades I want. I have examined hundreds of 1971 PSA 8s and I felt when I submitted, and still feel today, that the majority of the cards I submitted are similar to PSA 8s that I have examined. If a few cards here and there came back lower than expected, I wouldn't say anything. But we're talking two thirds of the cards. That suggests to me that standards have toughened, and it's important for those submitting to be aware of that so as to avoid disappointment and/or wasting money. >>
Another option would be to purchase cards already graded that meet your standards for the grade, which will avoid any potential disappointment and/or waste of money. Because there is no better answer to what you are wondering about, other than that grades will vary to an extent between one grade and the next based on the perception and opinion of the grader, and that there are always going to be cards that are higher end for the grade (usually the ones we submit, lol) and cards that are lower end for the grade. But focusing on outliers to illustrate your point is just going to cause you greater levels of frustration at the expense of enjoying the cards for what they are.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.