1836 Capped Bust Quarter - Browning 2 Question

Nolawyer

I've got an unattributed Browning 2 1836 quarter in a problem-free VF35 ANACS slab. Here is a photo:



I know this is a fairly rare variety. Would it be worth crossing to PCGS and getting it attributed? I don't know how strong the market is for Browning varieties.

Thanks for looking!

coindeuce

Whatever your point of reference is for the rarity of 1836 B-2 , it appears skewed. According to authors Rea,Peterson, Karoleff and Kovach in "Early Quarter Dollars of the United States Mint", this variety is ranked R2. I don't foresee specialists considering B-2 as "fairly rare", particularly at VF-35.
The 2010 Rea-Koenings-Haroutunian Census within lists 15 business strikes (Proofs also exist) of B-2 in the range of AU-50 to MS-64. Of the 3 known die states of the obverse, perhaps one of them presents a considerable challenge to obtain, but this is not specifically noted by the authors.
Your coin may have above average interest to Bust quarter specialists as to the overall quality (IMHO) of the example, but it may be sufficient to simply have ANACS add the variety attribution.

The B-5 is the prize of the 1836 Browning varieties, with a ranking by the above authors at R6+.

hchcoin

<< <i>Whatever your point of reference is for the rarity of 1836 B-2 is, it appears skewed. According to authors Rea,Peterson, Karoleff and Kovach in "Early Quarter Dollars of the United States Mint", this variety is ranked R2. I don't foresee specialists considering B-2 as "fairly rare", particularly at VF-35.
The 2010 Rea-Koenings-Haroutunian Census within lists 15 business strikes (Proofs also exist) of B-2 in the range of AU-50 to MS-64. Of the 3 known die states of the obverse, perhaps one of them presents a considerable challenge to obtain, but this is not specifically noted by the authors.
Your coin may have above average interest to Bust quarter specialists as to the overall quality (IMHO) of the example, but it may be sufficient to simply have ANACS add the variety attribution. >>

1TwoBits

The 1836 B-2 is the second most common variety for the year (R-2), while the B-3 (R-1) is the most common.

The B-1 is an R-3, while the scarcest ones are the B-4 (R-4) and the B-5 (R-6+). Those are the rarity ratings in the Rea/Peterson/Karoleff/Kovach book on bust quarters.

It looks like your piece is in a blue or yellow ANACS holder, while some people like coins in the older white holders. Of course, some prefer all their coins in PCGS holders. If the piece was AU or better I would consider crossing it, but since it's VF35 I probably wouldn't. The coin is a little dark so I'm having trouble seeing any of the possible obverse die cracks on it.

Here is one of my AU 1836 B-2 examples so you can see where the die cracks should be....



1TwoBits

Nolawyer

Thanks for the replies. My reference is the Browning book that was updated by Breen in 1992. It is listed as High R3 (possibly R4) in that book, but I guess things have changed.

VanHalen

For reference here is the most recent 1836 B-2 25C that sold on Heritage in similar condition. Based on this result your coin is not worth cross/attribution at PCGS. I grade yours VF30, 35 seems a tad generous. Still, you have a very nice bust quarter with very choice surfaces for a VF piece.

HA.com archive

Billet7

<< <i>The 1836 B-2 is the second most common variety for the year (R-2), while the B-3 (R-1) is the most common.

The B-1 is an R-3, while the scarcest ones are the B-4 (R-4) and the B-5 (R-6+). Those are the rarity ratings in the Rea/Peterson/Karoleff/Kovach book on bust quarters.

It looks like your piece is in a blue or yellow ANACS holder, while some people like coins in the older white holders. Of course, some prefer all their coins in PCGS holders. If the piece was AU or better I would consider crossing it, but since it's VF35 I probably wouldn't. The coin is a little dark so I'm having trouble seeing any of the possible obverse die cracks on it.

Here is one of my AU 1836 B-2 examples so you can see where the die cracks should be....



1TwoBits >>



I'll never forget that coin! A real beauty!!! I should have bid higher.

coindeuce

1Twobits - your example is a later die stage of the 3 known obverse die stages. There is a "perfect" stage of the obverse which has lesser die cracks than yours.

CBJesse

Hi Nolawyer,

Hopefully I can provide some useful information while you're waiting for the Bust Quarter experts to come along. Starting with your question concerning the market for Bust quarter die marriages, rare and/or desirable die marriage in this series can and do sell for considerable sums compared to their more common counterparts. This being said, it is my observation that there is generally less demand for Bust quarters by die marriage than most of the other Bust series, like half dollars and dimes.

Your specific quarter, 1836, B-2, is currently considered a R-2, in both of the newest references. At the beginning of Early Quarter Dollars of the United States Mint by Rea, et. al., rarity 2 is described as 'fairly common' with an estimated # of pieces at 751-1000. To generalize, premiums don't start to appear until the die marriage is considered a R-4 or up. This excludes, Red Book varieties, interesting varieties/states, and condition rarities though. So, your piece probably wouldn't fetch much of a premium based on the rarity of the marriage.

Steve Tompkins, mentions in his book, "B-2 is available in any condition desired, but becomes more scarce as you approach uncirculated." The top condition census piece for this marriage is graded MS-64, in fact, this grade is also the highest grade known for any 1836 quarter. The B-3 is the only marriage for the year where pieces in uncirculated grades aren't too difficult to find.

Concerning the other question, like most other coins, you will likely receive a higher price at sale, if it is in PCGS plastic. If you were to send it in though, I don't think this die marriage warrants an attribution fee. If you intend to keep it, the decision is entirely up to you; I personally would either leave it where it is, or crack it out, to be enjoyed raw. For pricing, you should of course view previous auction sales and currently available examples. Consider purchasing, Auction Appearances and Prices Realized for Early United States Quarters by Steve Tompkins. It is an excellent resource for pricing all Bust quarter varieties. It used to be available for sale on his website, but the site is no longer active. You may consider sending him an email; I'd be happy to provide his address through PM.

By the way, from the picture, it appears you have a very nice, original coin. I hope I was of assistance, feel free to let me know if you have any more questions.

Jesse

Edit- Opps, the previous post were all posted while I was writing. Also Tompkins mentions that the earliest die stage with no obverse die crack, which your example appears to be, is the rarest of the die stages.

Nolawyer

Again, thanks for all of the thoughtful posts. My coin does have some die cracks - they are just hard to see without a loupe. I don't generally collect bust quarters. I really liked the original look of this coin so I bought it to go into a mid-grade type set that I'm working on. I happened to have a copy of the Browning book that was given to me as a Christmas present. It is described as a scarce variety in that book, and that is why I asked about having PCGS attributing it. Since it is no longer thought of as that scarce, I will not bother with getting it attributed. I'll probably just crack it out and put it into my old Whitman type set.

1TwoBits

1Twobits - your example is a later die stage of the 3 known obverse die stages. There is a "perfect" stage of the obverse which has lesser die cracks than yours.

coindeuce....

With regards to the 1836 B-2, it's interesting to note that:

1) The Rea, et. al., book notes the Prime die state as having an obverse die crack from from the turban to stars 8-9-10, and another near star 11-12-13. There is no mention of a perfect obverse die state.

2) The Tompkins book states a perfect obverse and perfect reverse in his die stage combinations.

3) A quick review of the 1836 B-2 in Auction Appearances and Prices Realized for Early United States Quarters by Steve Tompkins shows NO early die states listed, only MDS and LDS appearances.

4) A quick review in Heritage's auction history doesn't show me any perfect obverse/reverse die states.

5) Even the Proof 67 example in the Heritage archive has the Obverse die cracks. (Presumably one of the first examples struck for the variety?)

6) I've never seen an example of the 1836 B-2 with no obverse cracks, but would like to since I'm not sure one exists and I collect die states.

Maybe Steve will chime in and let us know if he owns one or has seen one. Has anyone ever seen a perfect one?

Respectfully submitted - 1TwoBits

coindeuce

1TB - "There is no mention of a perfect obverse die state."
The P in caps at the top description of obverse die stages refers to the Perfect die stage. Doesn't necessarily mean there aren't any existing die markers, just that it is the stage with the least evidence of die deterioration.

1TwoBits

coindeuce -

The Tompkins book shows this for the 1836 B-2:

Obverse:
1. Die perfect (all following states have cracks)

Reverse:
1. Die perfect (all following states have cracks)

Die perfect means no die cracks to me when all the following listed states start out with "crack."

I'd just like to know if a perfect (uncracked) obverse/reverse die state exists, or was assumed but really doesn't exist. I've never seen one. Has anybody actually seen one, or perhaps own one? Can I cross that die state out in the book?

I collect small size bust quarter die states and wouldn't mind knowing.

1TwoBits

jom

<< <i>

<< <i>The 1836 B-2 is the second most common variety for the year (R-2), while the B-3 (R-1) is the most common.

The B-1 is an R-3, while the scarcest ones are the B-4 (R-4) and the B-5 (R-6+). Those are the rarity ratings in the Rea/Peterson/Karoleff/Kovach book on bust quarters.

It looks like your piece is in a blue or yellow ANACS holder, while some people like coins in the older white holders. Of course, some prefer all their coins in PCGS holders. If the piece was AU or better I would consider crossing it, but since it's VF35 I probably wouldn't. The coin is a little dark so I'm having trouble seeing any of the possible obverse die cracks on it.

Here is one of my AU 1836 B-2 examples so you can see where the die cracks should be....



1TwoBits >>



I'll never forget that coin! A real beauty!!! I should have bid higher. >>



Oh...yeah...I remember that one too....

jom

Billet7

<< <i>coindeuce -

The Tompkins book shows this for the 1836 B-2:

Obverse:
1. Die perfect (all following states have cracks)

Reverse:
1. Die perfect (all following states have cracks)

Die perfect means no die cracks to me when all the following listed states start out with "crack."

I'd just like to know if a perfect (uncracked) obverse/reverse die state exists, or was assumed but really doesn't exist. I've never seen one. Has anybody actually seen one, or perhaps own one? Can I cross that die state out in the book?

I collect small size bust quarter die states and wouldn't mind knowing.

1TwoBits >>



I've never seen one without the crack.