Are There Such Things As "Contemporary Counterfeit" Morgan Dollars?...

BustHalfBrian

And if so, how do you tell them apart from modern, Chinese junk? Would they most likely be composed of Silver?

Also, is there a collector base for such counterfeits (if they indeed exist)?

Thanks
Brian

DaveG

Yes, there are (or were) contemporary counterfeit Morgan dollars.

During a substantial portion of the lifetime of the Morgan dollar, it contained about 50 cents' worth of silver, so there was a financial incentive to make counterfeits.

In fact, I believe that the late-19th Century "micro O" dollars are now considered to be extremely well-made contemporary counterfeits. It took the experts a number of years to declare the coins "non-genuine" because they were very well made, die struck and contained the correct amount of silver.

I've seen contemporary counterfeit Barber and Walker halves that are made of lead (or something like it), so I wouldn't say that all contemporary counterfeits need to be made of silver.

If I were looking for a contemporary counterfeit Morgan dollar, though, I'd look for a silver coin that showed evidence of circulation. I'm not sure that the modern Chinese counterfeits show evidence of circulation.

jmj3esq

I have one. An 1885 cc that's pretty good besides the mm and weight. It would fool a novice.

BustHalfBrian

<< <i>Yes, there are (or were) contemporary counterfeit Morgan dollars.

During a substantial portion of the lifetime of the Morgan dollar, it contained about 50 cents' worth of silver, so there was a financial incentive to make counterfeits.

In fact, I believe that the late-19th Century "micro O" dollars are now considered to be extremely well-made contemporary counterfeits. It took the experts a number of years to declare the coins "non-genuine" because they were very well made, die struck and contained the correct amount of silver.

I've seen contemporary counterfeit Barber and Walker halves that are made of lead (or something like it), so I wouldn't say that all contemporary counterfeits need to be made of silver.

If I were looking for a contemporary counterfeit Morgan dollar, though, I'd look for a silver coin that showed evidence of circulation. I'm not sure that the modern Chinese counterfeits show evidence of circulation. >>



Interesting. Thank you for your response.

I bought the below coin out of curiosity a few days ago. I paid cull Morgan Dollar money for it, so even if it is modern, I won't be disappointed, and I figured the learning experience would be worth the money.

The dies that struck the coin appear to have been very crudely-engraved (the eagle is actually quite comical). I don't believe it is Silver, but rather a Nickel or Lead composite.

It looks circulated, but is this perhaps artificial wear to make the coin appear more "real"?

dcarr

As mentioned previously in this thread, there is one particular family of vintage Morgan silver dollar counterfeits that are collectible (I collect them, in fact).
These are the ones that have been designated as official "VAM" varieties. "VAM" comes from the last names of the two researchers and authors of the
original Morgan & Peace dollar variety books - George Van Aallen and George Mallis.

The VAM-World web site has diagnostic pictures of all the known die pairs from this maker.

VAM listings for privately-made Morgan Silver Dollars

In 2005 some rare Morgan Dollar varieties that had been collected for many years were identified as vintage counterfeits.
These were the 1896-o micro-o, 1900-o micro-o, and 1902-o micro-o. But because they were well-made, contained the correct amount of silver,
and had been collected for some time, they remained as official VAM varieties (but are now designtated as "Privately Made").

Since then several new die pars have been discovered which can be linked to the 1896/1900/1902 micro-o family.
These new discoveries generally have a normal (medium "O") mint mark, but share dies with other known coins in this Privately Made family.

But there is only one new "Privately Made" listing for 2014 (so far). It is 1902-O VAM-92, and it is listed as my discovery.
I sent the coin to Leroy Van Allen himself, and he confirmed it and assigned the new VAM number for it.

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD

Here are my 2



Erik

CaptHenway

I have written an article on the Micro O and related counterfeits for COINage Magazine. It is at the printers now.

Did you know that one of the 1896-O counterfeits shows an O/CC mintmark?

TD

PerryHall

PCGS authenticated, graded, and slabbed these counterfeit micro-O Morgan dollars before they were determined to be counterfeit. They were that good!

Type2

Ya here is a book of them.







and two Nickels.

dcarr

<< <i>Did you know that one of the 1896-O counterfeits shows an O/CC mintmark?

TD >>



That is not quite correct.
The description at VAMWorld.com previously stated that the reverse of 1896-O VAM-27 was made from a genuine 1900-O/CC VAM-11 coin.
But the "O" mint mark placement on 1896-O VAM-27 does NOT match that of 1900-O/CC VAM-11.

However, 1901-O VAM-44 has the same mint mark placement as 1900-O/CC VAM-11.
And 1901-O VAM-44 has the exact same die crack through "TED" as 1900-O/CC VAM-11.

So 1901-O VAM-44 is the one that is the privately made O/CC (the CC is very faint on these coins).

PS:
If you go to the 1901-O VAM-44 listing, the pictures shown there are mine.

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>Did you know that one of the 1896-O counterfeits shows an O/CC mintmark? >>

- yup



<< <i>contained the correct amount of silver, >>

- i have heard it is higher than the mint standards.



<< <i>PCGS authenticated, graded, and slabbed these counterfeit micro-O Morgan dollars before they were determined to be counterfeit. They were that good! >>

- nice xf and above examples should have never fooled any of the TPG. a great example of why is this nice example of a micro o privately made one that i imaged of brian raines. one of the many i imaged for the vam pages to help bring more light to counterfeits in general. - too bad it didn't occur to me to get close-ups with my microscopic objective that day.

here is an example of a period fake non-micro o that shouldn't have fooled any of the TPG for long. the general look of the date, mushiness and edges of devices scream, "something is awry here." - if you plant one word in your mind regarding these counterfeits, think "beveling and mushy details."

thanks goes to brian raines for being so willing to work with me to get those coins imaged unlike so many others that do NOT share information.

how they caught expert counterfeits in most and/or all other coin series, including great gold counterfeits but missed these micro Os doesn't makes sense to me.

now the low grade ones are a different story, lets say vf20 and below and the vg ones, fuhgeddaboudit, w/o pups, you need be near an expert to identify them. i've shown a couple of my low-grade ones around and the 100% consensus is, "they look good, (metaphorically and literally)!"



<< <i>Are There Such Things As "Contemporary Counterfeit" Morgan Dollars?... >>

YES! from a few different periods of time.

the one like BHB posted is far more interesting to me because of the folk artsy-ness to the style.




<< <i>Ya here is a book of them. >>

- yuck. noway, nohow, do any of those trade dollars say "pre-depression-era contemporary." - they are all modern.
.

njcoincrank

I have a collection of contemporary counterfeit coins, including several Morgan dollars. In my opinion they are easily distinguishable along side
Modern Chinese ones. Truly numismatic Americana.

njcc

DaveWcoins

<< <i>I have a collection of contemporary counterfeit coins, including several Morgan dollars. In my opinion they are easily distinguishable along side
Modern Chinese ones. Truly numismatic Americana.

njcc >>



+1

I also have a collection of contemporary counterfeit Morgan dollars. And NJcoincrank is right -- they are very different than the modern Chinese junk.

SaorAlba

Didn't see it mentioned above but some of the Micro-O counterfeits were analysed for silver content - turned out they were 96% silver. Which adds to the theory that they may have been made in the 1930s when silver was about 33 cents an ounce. They are often in circulated to heavily circulated condition - maybe tumbled to age them to not arouse suspicion of their being forgeries. I myself collect the "privately made" VAM varieties.

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>Didn't see it mentioned above but some of the Micro-O counterfeits were analysed for silver content - turned out they were 96% silver. Which adds to the theory that they may have been made in the 1930s when silver was about 33 cents an ounce. They are often in circulated to heavily circulated condition - maybe tumbled to age them to not arouse suspicion of their being forgeries. I myself collect the "privately made" VAM varieties. >>



i mentioned it in my post

<< contained the correct amount of silver, >>

- i have heard it is higher than the mint standards.

xxxxxxxx

i agree with you and have heard it is somewhere high like 96% as well. there may even be noticeable variances from coin-to-coin.

although i personally have not seen with my own eyes any information/testing to determine the metal content.
.

CaptHenway

I have done weight and specific gravity tests on a number of the Micro O counterfeits, and the weights were always within mint tolerances, and the specific gravity results were never suspiciously high or low, though of course you cannot tell exact fineness from s.g.

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>I have done weight and specific gravity tests on a number of the Micro O counterfeits, and the weights were always within mint tolerances, and the specific gravity results were never suspiciously high or low, though of course you cannot tell exact fineness from s.g. >>



leroy van allen concurs with that assessment based on my communications with him about counterfeit morgans, die struck or otherwise.

i would be interested in an attempt at authenticating (to include fakes AND altered) 1,000 different USA 1792-present legal tender coins and have no means to measure width, diameter, weight, radius, area etc and see how i would fare given how adamant against those methods i am. oh ya and no magnets

but i would be permitted to use loupes of my choice, my d90 with microscopic objective, a time frame per coin and basic day-to-day computer with basic software. (for time purposes).

i won't comment about SG tests as i haven't reached a concensus about the effectiveness/usefullness of that type of test for the whole of numismatic coins. precious metal value for confirmed fakes would sure be useful but i don't know if it would be more than a general assay.
.

ebaybuyer

I also am a collector of contemporary counterfeits, and ive seen counterfeits of almost every denomination of US coins, including indian cents. I cant speak for others, but I much prefer the crude hand carved dies to the plaster mold fakes. some of them are arguably more attractive than genuine mint issues.

dcarr

<< <i>Didn't see it mentioned above but some of the Micro-O counterfeits were analysed for silver content - turned out they were 96% silver. Which adds to the theory that they may have been made in the 1930s when silver was about 33 cents an ounce. They are often in circulated to heavily circulated condition - maybe tumbled to age them to not arouse suspicion of their being forgeries. I myself collect the "privately made" VAM varieties. >>



I've had an XRF (X-Ray flourescence) test performed on several of my "privately made" VAMs.
Overall, the silver content ranged from about 90% to 93% according to those tests (which could have a statistical error of perhaps 2% to 4%).
Also, in general, most of the ones tested appear to have trace elements consistent with silver that originated in Mexico.
A couple of the coins had a zinc content that was slightly elevated - possibly indicating that the silver was refined using the Zinc Precipitation process.
This process started to be used in the mid-1890s and it was responsible for the increased efficiency of silver extraction which resulted in a "glut" of silver supplies.

SaorAlba

<< <i>I also am a collector of contemporary counterfeits, and ive seen counterfeits of almost every denomination of US coins, including indian cents. I cant speak for others, but I much prefer the crude hand carved dies to the plaster mold fakes. some of them are arguably more attractive than genuine mint issues. >>



I have a whole black cabinet collection - but generally I am the only one who knows the specifics of what is in it. There is a historical basis for my collecting contemporary counterfeits, especially half dollars.

CaptHenway

<< <i>

<< <i>Didn't see it mentioned above but some of the Micro-O counterfeits were analysed for silver content - turned out they were 96% silver. Which adds to the theory that they may have been made in the 1930s when silver was about 33 cents an ounce. They are often in circulated to heavily circulated condition - maybe tumbled to age them to not arouse suspicion of their being forgeries. I myself collect the "privately made" VAM varieties. >>



I've had an XRF (X-Ray flourescence) test performed on several of my "privately made" VAMs.
Overall, the silver content ranged from about 90% to 93% according to those tests (which could have a statistical error of perhaps 2% to 4%).
Also, in general, most of the ones tested appear to have trace elements consistent with silver that originated in Mexico.
A couple of the coins had a zinc content that was slightly elevated - possibly indicating that the silver was refined using the Zinc Precipitation process.
This process started to be used in the mid-1890s and it was responsible for the increased efficiency of silver extraction which resulted in a "glut" of silver supplies. >>



What trace elements are typical of Mexican silver?

Of course, a lot of Mexican silver must have been sold into the U.S. market over the years. A lot of that must have come in through New Orleans.

DaveG

Mexican silver, mostly in the form of Mexican 8 reales coins, certainly was imported through New Orleans - primarily before the Civil War, though.

As many of you know, J.L. Riddell, Minter & Refiner, wrote a book "Monograph of the Silver Dollar" in the mid-1840s that illustrated the many counterfeit coins that had been deposited in the NO Mint.

However, when the NO Mint reopened after the Civil War, it had difficulty attracting silver. Much of the silver that was deposited in the Mint to be turned into Morgan dollars had to be transferred there from other mints and Treasury offices.