Burnished or not?

DocBubbles

I just acquired a 2013-W MS70 FS PCGS Silv Eagle that is supposed to be burnished. However, comparing it to other coins, it looks only lightly burnished, if at all on the Obverse. If I should try to sell it, the buyer could argue that it is not burnished. First, is there any indication in the certification that the coin is burnished? The verification page does not indicate burnishing as far as I can tell. I need help soon because the window for return is closing rapidly. I have attached a photo showing the coin in question on the right and a burnished coin on the left. The lighting was identical for both coins. They also show the font change that occurred in 2008.

[URL=http://s67.photobucket.com/user/ccronan1ccronan/media/BurnishedampFontChange16_zps25e37cb7.jpg.html][/URL]

Silveraholic

I believe the only W mintmark ASE's are the proofs and the burnished coins.

derryb

Planchets (blanks) for the non-proof W mintmark silver, platinum and gold eagles ("collector" versions) go through a burnishing process before being struck - unless of course one were to be struck on an unburnished planchet in error. If you have such a coin, I'll take it. Burnishing is a polishing process that results in a matte finish. Contrary to popular opinion the planchets are burnished, not the actual dies.

The mint certificates on these coins do not specify burnished and ironically while the mint's order page for the ASE W collector coin does say "burnished," its order page for the AGE W collector coin does not specify "burnished." Oddly the mint's order page for the AGE W collector coin specifies "a finish similar to their bullion coin counterparts."

ICG gives these coins an SP designation instead of the MS designation and on some lables refers to them as "satin finish."

I have often wondered if production of these collector coins involves a non-polished proof die (with the W) on a burnished blank or if a die is created specifically for these coins.

1868LargeCent

You could sell it as an "improperly burnished" error and see how it goes.

Silveraholic

To be honest I have a few of the "burnished" coins and besides the mintmark I can't tell the difference between a burnished coin and a regular ASE. To answer your question as long as your coin has the W mintmark nobody will question whether it's burnished.

DocBubbles

Nope, there is a real difference between "burnished" and not, except on this coin. The burnished ASEs are noticeably dull. Not this one. Also, I have another 2013-W that is just MS-70, and not burnished, that kind of kills W as an indicator. The others are DCAM, which are proofs. The thought of keeping it as an improperly burnished coin is attractive, but again, how does one prove it is "supposed to be" burnished?

Silveraholic

What I'm saying is anything with a W mintmark is either burnished or a proof. The mint does not make regular bullion ASE's with a W mintmark. They do not exist.

derryb

<< <i>What I'm saying is anything with a W mintmark is either burnished or a proof. The mint does not make regular bullion ASE's with a W mintmark. They do not exist. >>


Anything with a W mintmark is supposed to be either burnished or a proof. What if they accidently used one or more unburnished blanks at the time they were striking burnished coins? OP wasn't clear about the reverse of the coin in question; might even be possible that a blank got polished (burnished) only on one side. It's not unrealistic to believe it could happen. The mint has struck a number of coins on the wrong planchet.

Such an error would require a major TPG authentication to make it valid/marketable.

As a side note, anyone who collects the bullion non-burnished ASEs is fully aware of the different finishes they appear to have.

DocBubbles

Silver, I am staring at one in my hand. "2013-W PCGS MS70 FS, Struck at West Point" is on the label. Perhaps that quoted phrase explains the W, but it is neither proof nor burnished. just sayin'.

Silveraholic

Could you perhaps post pics of the full obverse and reverse. That might help clear up any confusion.

derryb

<< <i>Silver, I am staring at one in my hand. "2013-W PCGS MS70 FS, Struck at West Point" is on the label. Perhaps that quoted phrase explains the W, but it is neither proof nor burnished. just sayin'. >>


stupid question: Does the coin actually have the W mintmark on the reverse? If not then it is a mechanical label error where PCGS left the parenthesis from around the W. Major TPGs use the parenthesis to designate a mint location when there is actually no mintmark on the coin. They are able to do this only with sealed mint boxes that designate the mint. Also possible you have a regular bullion coin with no mintmark and you are failing to put the parenthesis around the W when you tell us what the label says.

Take a look at this coin

Silveraholic

<< <i>

<< <i>Silver, I am staring at one in my hand. "2013-W PCGS MS70 FS, Struck at West Point" is on the label. Perhaps that quoted phrase explains the W, but it is neither proof nor burnished. just sayin'. >>


stupid question: Does it actually have the W mintmark on the reverse? If not then it is a mechanical label error where PCGS left the parenthesis from around the W. Major TPGs use the parenthesis to designate a mint location when there is actually no mintmark on the coin. They are able to do this only with sealed mint boxes that designate the mint.

Take a look at this coin >>



Thank you Derryb that is what I'm trying to get the OP to realize. The W mintmark should be on the reverse to the lower left of the eagle

DocBubbles

I have to correct that both sides do not look burnished. The slab was delivered encased in a plastic bag, on the back is a label by the large commercial seller that also says burnished. I have not yet taken that bag off. But that was labeled by the seller not the grader. This is confusing, time for an emoticon.

DocBubbles

W mint mark is where it should be, is that decisive then? If so that TPG idea would probably be something to consider.

derryb

I might add that the mint considers a coin struck on a burnished blank to have a finish "similar to the bullion version." This explains why in most cases one cannot visually tell the difference between the two coins except for the mintmark. I've viewed thousands of them and to be honest cannot tell the difference without magnification.

burnishing the blank results in a "sandy" appearance. Under magnification you can notice a slight difference in the coin's field or background under magnification.

If you have a non-proof W mintmark silver eagle that can be verified to be on a non-burnished planchet, you've got a nice error. Odds are strong that you don't, but you never know. I would ask PCGS if they are able to verify such a find before sending it to them.

DocBubbles

I hate to keep adding comments. The 2013-(W) MS-70 ASE "Struck at West Point" does not have a W mint mark, but the label says 2013-(W) with those parentheses (which I ignored). No parentheses and the W mint mark on my "supposed" burnished coin.

derryb

<< <i>I hate to keep adding comments. The 2013-(W) MS-70 ASE "Struck at West Point" does not have a W mint mark, but the label says 2013-(W) with those parentheses (which I ignored). No parentheses and the W mint mark on my "supposed" burnished coin. >>



W mintmark on the coin and a grade in MS (not PR) means you should have a burnished coin.
No mintmark on the coin and parenthesis on the label means regular bullion coin that TPG certified to be from a specific minting facility.
No mintmark on the coin and no parenthesis around the M/M on the label means you have a bullion coin and PCGS forgot to put parenthesis on the label.

Silveraholic

If you want to resubmit for error coin struck on wrong planchet be prepared for the coin to come back labeled just like it is. It's tough to tell the difference between the two finishes. I have some burnished coins that have the matte look that you describe but I also have some burnished coins with less of a matte look and more of a regular bullion finish. I don't think any of mine are errors. Just poor quality control from the mint. To put it another way all W mintmark ASE's are not created equal. Some are more burnished than others. To make it even worse I have a roll of 2010 ASE's with a heavily burnished looking reverse. Therefore, I don't put much stock in what the mint calls "burnished" or not burnished.

derryb

<< <i>If you want to resubmit for error coin struck on wrong planchet be prepared for the coin to come back labeled just like it is. It's tough to tell the difference between the two finishes. I have some burnished coins that have the matte look that you describe but I also have some burnished coins with less of a matte look and more of a regular bullion finish. I don't think any of mine are errors. Just poor quality control from the mint. To put it another way all W mintmark ASE's are not created equal. Some are more burnished than others. >>


This sums it up.

DocBubbles

<< <i>
burnishing the blank results in a "sandy" appearance. Under magnification you can notice a slight difference in the coin's field or background under magnification.

If you have a non-proof W mintmark silver eagle that can be verified to be on a non-burnished planchet, you've got a nice error. Odds are strong that you don't, but you never know. I would ask PCGS if they are able to verify such a find before sending it to them. >>



D,

Then the 2013-W MS-70 with the W mint mark is what I have, that does not look like a burnished coin to me. I can easily tell the difference between burnished, I have 3 or 4, and a regular MS-70. This one really looks like an ordinary MS-70. I already have return permission to to the seller (can I mention the name?) but I am likely to hold back. If it is burnished, it is very lightly done, still possibly called "improper burnishing". I could see a tired grader making not realizing that error.

MsMorrisine

While the burnished part may be a planchets process, perhaps a new die took some of that away?

DocBubbles

<< <i> To put it another way all W mintmark ASE's are not created equal. Some are more burnished than others. >>



Sounds like "The Animal Farm" by George Orwell. I like it.

MsMorrisine

An ms70 coin with a W mint mark needs no burnished designation.

Silveraholic

<< <i>

<< <i>
burnishing the blank results in a "sandy" appearance. Under magnification you can notice a slight difference in the coin's field or background under magnification.

If you have a non-proof W mintmark silver eagle that can be verified to be on a non-burnished planchet, you've got a nice error. Odds are strong that you don't, but you never know. I would ask PCGS if they are able to verify such a find before sending it to them. >>



D,

Then the 2013-W MS-70 with the W mint mark is what I have, that does not look like a burnished coin to me. I can easily tell the difference between burnished, I have 3 or 4, and a regular MS-70. This one really looks like an ordinary MS-70. I already have return permission to to the seller (can I mention the name?) but I am likely to hold back. If it is burnished, it is very lightly done, still possibly called "improper burnishing". I could see a tired grader making not realizing that error. >>



You may want to hold on to it then. In the future TPG's may recognize different amounts of burnishing.

Silveraholic

Disclaimer:I'm not an expert on ASE's but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

derryb

<< <i>An ms70 coin with a W mint mark needs no burnished designation. >>


But a "Not Burnished" designation would be worth a nice premium.

derryb

<< <i>Then the 2013-W MS-70 with the W mint mark is what I have, that does not look like a burnished coin to me. I can easily tell the difference between burnished, I have 3 or 4, and a regular MS-70. This one really looks like an ordinary MS-70. I already have return permission to to the seller (can I mention the name?) but I am likely to hold back. If it is burnished, it is very lightly done, still possibly called "improper burnishing". I could see a tired grader making not realizing that error. >>


As MsM pointed out, visible appearance of a burnished coin is more likely a result of the dies that struck it and not related to "amount" of burnishing.

DocBubbles

M, S, D, thanks for this information. I think I will keep that coin. I am about to enter another question about certification numbers.

Thanks again I appreciate you all.