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Conder Tokens--pics are here--some of them

I posted this on the U.S. side and received some feedback but I was directed here.

I confess, that I did this deal entirely backwards, but it is done. I just purchased a large group of condor tokens from a dealer friend without knowing anything about them. I know copper, colonials, and HTT reasonably well and I have always been fascinated by Condors. Virtually all are pretty nice and range in grade from xf+ to unc+, but I think that is how they come. I might have over-paid, but at this point, I'm not sure I much care. I intend to enjoy them and study them.

Can someone point me to a standard reference on these fascinating tokens as I intend to learn more about them? I know....buy the book BEFORE the coin.

There is an on-line version of The Ultimate Guide to Condor Tokens available for $75. Is that a good reference guide? Are there others?

As I move forward, I'll post some of the pieces. I'm as excited as a kid in a candy store. I'm not sure I would recommend this strategy to others though.

Thanks in advance.

Tom

Comments

  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Firstly, you should know they are referred to Conder tokens because of the indexing work published by James Conder back in 1798 (not Condor tokens -- this spelling error is a bit of a pet peeve among us collectors of the tokens). I wrote the majority of the Wikipedia article on Conder Tokens about 9 months ago, so you may want to take a look at that for some background information and links (in the references) to the full original old works. Almost no one outside of the US refers to these tokens as "Conders", so if you make it to any UK websites you will see them referred to as 18th Century Provincial Tokens, 18th Century British Trade Tokens, and various other variations on that theme.

    The standard reference work for these tokens is the Dalton & Hamer reference (called the D&H by collectors), published in pieces in the 1910s. The Ultimate Guide to Conder Tokens for $75 (PDF electronic version) is a superb work, and my most preferred reference for actual everyday use in identifying the series. It is essentially the D&H work, expanded, updated, and made user-friendly for the electronic age.

    The full text of the original 1910s D&H is available online at this link, but it is a little cumbersome and clumsy to use. I strongly recommend the Ultimate Guide you referred to in your OP.

    If you have any specific questions or examples you want help in identifying, feel free to post pictures here. One thing of note though, when posting the token obverse and reverse images, you should also report the edge of the token. Many of the tokens that are listed as scarce or rare are rated only as such because of the edge lettering, or other edge finishing (engrailed, milled, plain in collar, etc.).

    I look forward to seeing some of these tokens! And, welcome to the world of Conders! image
    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thank you kindly.....

    Tom

  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How many did you buy?


    Hoard the keys.
  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭✭
    90 tokens, almost all nice original pieces...about half unc to unc+ or very nearly so, the other half nice xf-au+....about 20 with some red....only a couple with substantial red... about 4-5 impaired, the rest look fully original and have been sitting in flips or 2x2s for many years. it doesn't look like any rarities are in here as most are attributed, and I don't see any slavery related, end of pain related, or things like that. But who knows what I'll find once I start studying. If the xf-au+ pieces are worth $35-50 and the uncs are worth $75+ I should be OK, especially since I have no plans to sell anytime soon.

    Tom

  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Any pic? image


    Hoard the keys.
  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I will start to post some of these but it will be a while as I am just getting the hang of my photography skills as well. So, don't expect it in the very near future. Still, it's fun and it's something I want to do.

    Tom

  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I will start to post some of these but it will be a while as I am just getting the hang of my photography skills as well. So, don't expect it in the very near future. Still, it's fun and it's something I want to do. >>



    I'm so glad you are branching out into these. Given your other interests in CWT, HTTs, and old copper, these are right in your wheelhouse. Congrats on a nice purchase! Can't wait to see pics.

    -Brandon
    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,549 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I will start to post some of these but it will be a while as I am just getting the hang of my photography skills as well. So, don't expect it in the very near future. Still, it's fun and it's something I want to do. >>



    Can't wait to see pics.

    -Brandon >>



    Me too!
    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Update--Sorry no pics yet, but I sent in my 7 best pieces, items 1-7, at the Baltimore show, in late March, and today, 49 work days after PCGS acknowledged receipt, I received my grades. The grades were as I had hoped. I graded these pieces before I sent them in as 1-65rb, 5-64 bn, and 1 63 bn, so I actually did a bit better than I expected, though I did think a few of of the 64s had a shot at 65. Instead, I got 1-65rb, 3-65bn, and 3-64bn. Not too shabby.
    And I'm not complaining about the long turnaround time, though if I had known, it would have saved me checking 20 times a day for the last month. PCGS is pretty new at these, and I'm pretty sure they haven't even assigned numbers to all of them yet, so it is understandable.
    I suppose I'll post some pictures in a while, but I'm not very good at that. I did call to ask PCGS if they could take TrueViews about 25 days into the process, but I was told that they would need to re-slab them and that would cost $10, for pic, plus another another $15 for re-slabbing, so I passed, but it did get me wondering how their process works.
    In any event, I'll post pics when I can. For now, I'm quite pleased with the grades.


    1 1 29675004 524328 1795 Token DH-480 Middlesex Gr.Britain--- MS64BN
    2 1 29675005 526399 No Date 1/2D DH-473 Middlesex Gr.Britain-------- MS64BN
    3 1 29675006 435683 1795 1/2D DH-352b Dublin Ireland----------- MS65BN
    4 1 29675007 522270 1792 1/2D DH-231 Warwickshire Gr.Britain-- MS65BN
    5 1 29675008 527376 1794 Token DH-34 Somersetshire Gr.Britain MS64BN
    6 1 29675009 520533 1794 1/2D DH-19 Suffolk Gr.Britain-------------- MS65RB
    7 1 29675010 523143 1794 Token DH-35 Suffolk Gr.Britain ------------ MS65BN

    8 1 29675011 616071 1758 Shil Plain rev Gr.Britain MS63
    9 1 29675012 418651 (1216-72) 1d S-6235 Ireland AU55

    Tom

  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, if you're lucky, if your examples were the first graded by PCGS so far, a few may have had glamour shots taken for the CoinFacts online resource. It appears the tokens are not yet registering in the online lookup system for the cert numbers, but we'll know in a few days. image

    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Update--still no pictures, but I recently got 23 more certified. These were the second tier of pieces from the set, which I thought should grade unc. Thankfully, all but 1 graded unc. and all straight-graded, including 2 proofs and one mule. I still don't know much about these, but I am very happy with the grades. If anyone knows anything about proofs or the mule, I would appreciate any info you may offer. They are not for sale as I do intend to keep them. And I do promise to post photos, but I haven't photographed any yet and PCGS hasn't listed any yet.


    1 1 30135816 529602 1794 1/2D DH-39 Lancashire Gr.Britain MS64BN
    2 1 30135817 529607 1794 1/2D DH-58 Lancashire Gr.Britain MS63BN
    3 1 30135818 529610 1794 Token DH-39 Middlesex Gr.Britain MS63BN
    4 1 30135819 529613 1789 Token DH-180 Middlesex Gr.Britain PR63
    5 1 30135820 522713 1795 1/2D DH-295 Middlesex Gr.Britain MS64BN
    6 1 30135821 523068 No Date Token DH-319c Middlesex Gr.Britain MS62BN
    7 1 30135822 526361 1795 Token DH-275 Middlesex Gr.Britain MS65BN
    8 1 30135823 526399 No Date Token DH-473 Middlesex Gr.Britain AU58BN
    9 1 30135824 529622 No Date Token DH-561 Middlesex Gr.Britain MS64RB
    10 1 30135825 529624 1794 Token DH-690b Middlesex Gr.Britain MS64BN
    11 1 30135826 526513 1789 Token DH-932 Middlesex Gr.Britain MS62BN
    12 1 30135827 526552 1795 1/2D DH-986 Middlesex Gr.Britain MS64BN
    13 1 30135828 527268 No Date Token DH-1066 Middlesex Gr.Britain MS62BN
    14 1 30135829 527817 1795 Token DH-1112 Middlesex Gr.Britain MS64BN
    15 1 30135830 529627 No Date Token DH-23b Norfolk Gr.Britain MS63BN
    16 1 30135831 527376 1794 Token DH-34 Somersetshire Gr.Britain MS63BN
    17 1 30135832 529630 No Date Token DH-76 Somersetshire Gr.Britain MS64BN
    18 1 30135833 529653 No Date Token DH-26 Obv/27 Rev Suffolk Mule Gr.Britain MS63BN
    19 1 30135834 529633 No Date Token DH-120 Warwickshire Gr.Britain MS64BN
    20 1 30135835 529636 1787 Token DH-362 Warwickshire Gr.Britain MS63+BN
    21 1 30135836 529639 No Date Token DH-482 Warwickshire Gr.Britain MS65BN
    22 1 30135837 529642 1793 1/2D DH-56 Yorkshire Gr.Britain MS61BN
    23 1 30135838 529646 1794 1/2D DH-2a Invernesshire Gr.Britain PR64
    Total Items: 23

    Tom

  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow! Thats one submission for ya!
  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A few comments:

    What metal is your Middlesex-180? They didn't denote the color so I presume it was a silver example?

    I wouldn't get too attached to the "proof" designations of the two tokens that came back as such. There are very few true "proofs" among the Conder series, and since both of the pieces in your submission that PCGS denoted as proofs are common issues, I'm not sure how they would differentiate them as such as opposed to just being particularly nice or prooflike examples of the regular issues. You can't go by "squared rims" for definition -- nor can you go by prooflike or bronzed surfaces. The designation "proof" on Conders is a truly tricky one.

    I would love to see pictures of the token designated a mule: Item # 18: 529653 No Date Token DH-26 Obv/27 Rev Suffolk Mule Gr.Britain MS63BN

    There are dozens of very minuscule differences in the Wilkinson tokens, so I would also love to see pictures of this token: Item #20: 529636 1787 Token DH-362 Warwickshire Gr.Britain MS63+BN These tokens, the Druids, and a few others with dozens of varieties are particularly difficult for TPGs to designate correctly -- heck, let's be honest -- they're difficult to properly attribute for even the pros who have been dealing in Conders for decades.

    Cheers,
    -Brandon

    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>A few comments:

    What metal is your Middlesex-180? They didn't denote the color so I presume it was a silver example?

    I wouldn't get too attached to the "proof" designations of the two tokens that came back as such. There are very few true "proofs" among the Conder series, and since both of the pieces in your submission that PCGS denoted as proofs are common issues, I'm not sure how they would differentiate them as such as opposed to just being particularly nice or prooflike examples of the regular issues. You can't go by "squared rims" for definition -- nor can you go by prooflike or bronzed surfaces. The designation "proof" on Conders is a truly tricky one.

    I would love to see pictures of the token designated a mule: Item # 18: 529653 No Date Token DH-26 Obv/27 Rev Suffolk Mule Gr.Britain MS63BN

    There are dozens of very minuscule differences in the Wilkinson tokens, so I would also love to see pictures of this token: Item #20: 529636 1787 Token DH-362 Warwickshire Gr.Britain MS63+BN These tokens, the Druids, and a few others with dozens of varieties are particularly difficult for TPGs to designate correctly -- heck, let's be honest -- they're difficult to properly attribute for even the pros who have been dealing in Conders for decades.

    Cheers,
    -Brandon >>



    Brandon/Zohar--Thank you for the swift reply and comments.

    Brandon, the proofs are copper--no silvers in the group. I did not designate the proofs as proof, though several of these pieces were prooflike. I thought Number 17, the DH-76 might be a proof, and designated it with a question mark, but apparently it is not. I am a beginner in Conders, but I have the books, so I designated all as PCGS did, with the exception of Number 7, which I designated as DH-467 instead of DH-275. That part was fun. I'm not sure who was wrong on that one, and the on-line PCGS forms are good but can be a little tricky (in that they sometime auto-designate), so I'll just have to see which is right and I'll assume PCGS got it correct. On the mule, I designated it as a DH-26 but noted on the form that the reverse was DH-27, so I feel that that is correct.

    I will post pics as soon as I can. If you pm me an email address, I may be able to send you a photo quicker, though I cannot guarantee that the quality will be all that good.

    Thanks again for you insightful comments.

    Tom

    Tom

  • rwyarmchrwyarmch Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭✭
    Nice group of Conders!

    Middlesex 179, 180 and 181 are similar pieces each of which comes in silver and copper.
    Middlesex 180 is listed in R.C.Bell's "Political and Commemorative Pieces Simulating Tradesmen's Tokens, 1770-1802."
    I would have expected your copper version to be designated PR63BN.

    Dalton & Hamer is a wonderful reference filled with additions and corrections front and back. See Davisson's updates
    in the 1990 version, page xix, for a correction on Suffolk 27.

  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They posted the photos on PCGS from the set of 23 before the set of 9.....so here are a few......

    18 1 30135833 529653 No Date Token DH-26 Obv/27 Rev Suffolk Mule Gr.Britain MS63BN

    Here is the DH 26/27 Mule. Any and all comments and criticisms welcome. Without them, I'll never learn.


    image


    And here is number 20---DH - 362 Warwickshire.


    image

    Tom

  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here is the Inverness so called proof..Item 23, Inverness,
    DH-2A, Pr 64. I think it might be but I don't know.

    image

    And here is the other so called proof...item DH-180 Middlesex, Pf 63


    image

    Tom

  • mdwoodsmdwoods Posts: 5,526 ✭✭✭
    Nice, I really like the Ironworks one.
    National Register Of Big Trees

    We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'll post the first 7 and we'll go from there.

    1 1 30135816 529602 1794 1/2D DH-39 Lancashire Gr.Britain MS64BN





    image










    3 1 30135818 529610 1794 Token DH-39 Middlesex Gr.Britain MS63BN







    image


    2 1 30135817 529607 1794 1/2D DH-58 Lancashire Gr.Britain MS63BN

    image

    Tom

  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭✭✭
    number 4, the proof was posted.


    Here is number 5.....


    4 1 30135819 529613 1789 Token DH-180 Middlesex Gr.Britain PR63
    5 1 30135820 522713 1795 1/2D DH-295 Middlesex Gr.Britain MS64BN




    image


    6 1 30135821 523068 No Date Token DH-319c Middlesex Gr.Britain MS62BN





    image


    7 1 30135822 526361 1795 Token DH-275 Middlesex Gr.Britain MS65BN

    This one they just got wrong...it is DH-467 and looks nothing like the DH-275.


    image

    Tom

  • IcollecteverythingIcollecteverything Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭
    Hey,

    I don't have any real info on your tokens except that I like them all just like I like any old copper.

    But I can tell you a little about what the scene is on the reverse of the "John Wilkinson Iron Master" token: What you see is known as a hammer mill. Yes, that is one giant hammer, probably powered by a water wheel, pounding chunks of iron into bars or other shapes to be used by smiths.

    On the right hand side is a large brick furnace into which they would put iron ore into probably a coal fire. Once it melted into a blob they would grab a piece with tongs and place it on the anvil and start the hammer going. Not only would the hammer literally pound out the impurities but it would actually rearrange the molecules making it stronger. Of course they didn't know that at the time , they just knew it made it better.

    I love the way your token has a little mint red glowing around the edges making the furnace and room glow just like it would have back in the day.

    If you do a googly search on "iron hammer mill" you can see pics and learn some other history on them.

    Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.

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