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Colonial WASHINGTON BORN VIRGINIA obverse test strike on Hibernia?
ItsOnlyMoney
Posts: 29
Does anyone here know how I go about researching this new find WASHINGTON BORN VIRGINIA un-faced medal?
The owner was a jeweler in the Boston area who collected coins as a hobby. He died in 1978 and his son is just now selling his fathers items.
This obverse die is NOT the 1959 Collins re-strike die. I know that for two reasons. I have a Collins re-strike and there are several elements that differ. Some are the fact that the serifs on the Collins re-strike are flat (I think Collins spent some time cleaning up that die) and do not have the notching of the circulated original medals. The best single example is the A in VIRGINIA. On the Collins re-strike the crossbar of the A is thick and virtually straight across. That A on this coin shown here is thin and distinctly bowed downward in the middle. Another big difference between this and the 1959 Collins is that on this coin, on the shoulder board, in the half-round shield just above the braids there are what look like three buttons. On the 1959 Collins this area is empty and distinctly flat, no buttons.
The Breen# 1237 is listed as a unique obverse die un-faced original strike of this medal. It's at the Massachusetts Historical Society, donated by W.S. Appleton in the late 1800's. Has anyone seen it or a picture of it?
This BORN VIRGINIA obverse has been struck on a GEORGIVS III Hibernia as the planchet. The profile of George is clearly visible under Washington's profile. The reverse of the Hibernia has been filed flat. I assume that was done to let the coin seat flat for the strike with the obverse die. However the crown and harp are still easily visible. I can not see a date on the Hibernia but they were used in New England beginning about 1759.
The diameter is 27.5, correct for the Hibernia but small for the BORN VIRGINIA medal.
The last picture below is of my 1959 Collins BORN VIRGINIA re-strike for you to use as a comparison.
What do you think???
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The owner was a jeweler in the Boston area who collected coins as a hobby. He died in 1978 and his son is just now selling his fathers items.
This obverse die is NOT the 1959 Collins re-strike die. I know that for two reasons. I have a Collins re-strike and there are several elements that differ. Some are the fact that the serifs on the Collins re-strike are flat (I think Collins spent some time cleaning up that die) and do not have the notching of the circulated original medals. The best single example is the A in VIRGINIA. On the Collins re-strike the crossbar of the A is thick and virtually straight across. That A on this coin shown here is thin and distinctly bowed downward in the middle. Another big difference between this and the 1959 Collins is that on this coin, on the shoulder board, in the half-round shield just above the braids there are what look like three buttons. On the 1959 Collins this area is empty and distinctly flat, no buttons.
The Breen# 1237 is listed as a unique obverse die un-faced original strike of this medal. It's at the Massachusetts Historical Society, donated by W.S. Appleton in the late 1800's. Has anyone seen it or a picture of it?
This BORN VIRGINIA obverse has been struck on a GEORGIVS III Hibernia as the planchet. The profile of George is clearly visible under Washington's profile. The reverse of the Hibernia has been filed flat. I assume that was done to let the coin seat flat for the strike with the obverse die. However the crown and harp are still easily visible. I can not see a date on the Hibernia but they were used in New England beginning about 1759.
The diameter is 27.5, correct for the Hibernia but small for the BORN VIRGINIA medal.
The last picture below is of my 1959 Collins BORN VIRGINIA re-strike for you to use as a comparison.
What do you think???
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Comments
I agree it's not a restrike but cannot help much further. Great piece and excellent images.
There are some great Colonial and medal specialist here that can probably help you out.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
I'm trying to keep my excitement about this medal under control. This could be either an amazing find OR just a cool WhatsIt find. I'm hoping the experts wake up early to read this post!
Cool piece.
A couple folks that come to mind immediately that you might want to contact include:
John Kraljevich (Pistareen on these boards) here
John Agre (CoinRaritiesOnline) here
I'm sure there are others as well.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I've just contacted both of them.
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
<< <i>American George struck over the English George has got to be cool. >>
Amen to that!!!
subject. However, it's my opinion that your piece was struck over
a North Wales Token 1792 Halfpenny with a bust of GEORGEIVS
WASHINGTON obv. and the Crowned Irish harp on the rev.
These were made by the British of brass and circulated through
the colonies. The image of Washington is almost identicle to the
one used for the "Washington Born Virginia" and "Washington
President" pieces.
The example of the Wales token is in the William S. Baker catalog
as Baker 34.
You probably know that the 1792, in copper & silver, GEO. WASHINGTON
BORN VIRGINIA, FEB. 11, 1732 is Baker 60 & 60A.
The 1792 restrike uniface obv impressions in platinum, gold, silver or
copper were made by Albert Collis in 1959 and the die is currently
I believe, in the American Numismatic Assoc. museum.
Uniface restrike of obverse exists, made from transfer dies by Collis in 1959.
as stated in the Red Book.
If you have PCGS CoinFacts there is a discussion of these coins & the
uniface examples at CoinFacts.com written by Ron Guth with his e-mail
to ask questions. There are also images & past auction sale info.
Here
Good luck with your search.
R.I.P. Bear
Collins then proceeded to strike several hundred blank copper planchets with the obverse die and sold them.
But the obverse die medal struck by Collins does not look like the original Washington Born Virginia medals sold by Stack's Bowers and Heritage Auctions. So what is the Collins die?
As a collector I am so appreciative of the high definition coin photographs that both Stack's and Heritage have available in their archives for research and reference. In my examination of the original 1791 Washington Born Virginia medals sold by both of them I was surprised to find none that matched the Collins re-strike die upon close examination. Admittedly those medals sold are not an exhaustive representation, but substantial. All of the original medals do have bifurcation of the serifs, several with more dramatic bifurcation than mine shown here. I could not find any that had the flat serifs as seen on the Collins die. One of the most telling differences between the lettering on the originals sold and the Collins die is in the cross bar in the letter A in VIRGINIA. The Collins die has a rather thick cross bar that is almost straight across. There is a dramatic difference on examining that element specifically on my coin, those originals sold, with the Collins die. Mine and all others I could find have a distinct downward bow to the center of that element and are thinner than the Collins.
There is also a difference between the originals sold, mine and the Collins die in an element of the shoulder board. Just above the braids of the shoulder board there is an almost half-circle shield with scolloped edges. There are what appear to be buttons visible in that element on mine and other originals sold that were not too worn to examine. That area is empty on the Collins.
I do respectfully propose that the Collins re-strike die may need to be reconsidered as "the" unaltered original die. It could be possible that Collins felt the need to clean that almost two hundred year old die up a bit before making his re-strikes which he fully intended to market. That could account for the missing bifurcation of the serifs, the thickening and loss of the bow in the letter A cross bar and missing elements of the shoulder board. But the fact is it does not match the original George Washington Born Virginia medals I can compare it to.
Does somebody have easy access to their Collis restrike to take a look at the back side of it, to see how the "anvil" or backing plate pattern on the reverse of this piece compares to the pattern on the Collis?
TD
<< <i>I handled the Collis die, whatever it is, in the ANA Museum in the early 1980's. I have no reason to believe that it is not still there.
Does somebody have easy access to their Collis restrike to take a look at the back side of it, to see how the "anvil" or backing plate pattern on the reverse of this piece compares to the pattern on the Collis?
TD >>
I have found that the reverse can have two looks.
Mine is the one below and the slab image is another look I have seen on the reverse
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
From CoinFacts
R.I.P. Bear
As you can see none match the re-strike but they do match mine above.
<< <i>Thanks for the pictures. Maybe I'll ask Doug Mudd if I can come down to Headquarters and take another look at it. >>
I do hope that you'll re-examine the Collins Die at the ANA museum. It would be a shame to have an altered die being used as the bench-mark standard for one of the classic colonial rarities.
If you find it is altered or not authentic I hope you'll bring that news to the colonial coin community. Its comparison to known authentic Washington Born Virginia medals is troubling.
But, back to my un-faced Born Virginia obverse struck on an early Hibernia, what do you think of it?
I'd really appreciate your opinion.
<< <i>The reverse show an image of a shield cent or am I seeing things? >>
I believe those lines are the strings of the harp on the Hibernia understrike.
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks for the pictures. Maybe I'll ask Doug Mudd if I can come down to Headquarters and take another look at it. >>
I do hope that you'll re-examine the Collins Die at the ANA museum. It would be a shame to have an altered die being used as the bench-mark standard for one of the classic colonial rarities.
If you find it is altered or not authentic I hope you'll bring that news to the colonial coin community. Its comparison to known authentic Washington Born Virginia medals is troubling.
But, back to my un-faced Born Virginia obverse struck on an early Hibernia, what do you think of it?
I'd really appreciate your opinion. >>
It is a very interesting piece. I will ponder upon it for a while.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Thanks for the pictures. Maybe I'll ask Doug Mudd if I can come down to Headquarters and take another look at it. >>
I do hope that you'll re-examine the Collins Die at the ANA museum. It would be a shame to have an altered die being used as the bench-mark standard for one of the classic colonial rarities.
If you find it is altered or not authentic I hope you'll bring that news to the colonial coin community. Its comparison to known authentic Washington Born Virginia medals is troubling.
But, back to my un-faced Born Virginia obverse struck on an early Hibernia, what do you think of it?
I'd really appreciate your opinion. >>
It is a very interesting piece. I will ponder upon it for a while. >>
Thank you for that consideration.
I just reviewed the threads here. When I got to the pictures of the various words "VIRGINIA" I compiled from auction coins I noticed there's a difference in the spacing between the letters G and I on the Collins compared to all of the rest. Those letters look to be closer together on the Collins than the originals. On the Collins the very end of the left extension of the bottom serif of the I is almost directly under the right end of the horizontal bar on the end of the bottom upward curl of the letter G.
On all of the original Heritage auction coins there is a small but distinct distance between those two elements of those letters.
Is this minutia? Yes, but that's what "varieties" are made of. There's no question that what I think I see could be just from different angels that the photographs were taken from.
But still did Collins make his die?
I certainly wish I could get the Collins die and a few original BORN VIRGINIA medals in hand to really compare them.
I am studying this thread a bit (first time I saw it was yesterday) before I have an actual opinion, however, there are many trial strikes of similar Washington pieces known. The obverses and reverses of the Large and Small Eagle Washington Cents are all known struck on small, test planchets and are only struck on one side. They appeared in the Garrett Sale, and sold to John Ford, and subsequently sold in his auction in May 2004. There were a lot of similarities between those and your piece.
However, not being a real expert on these trial pieces, I am a bit hesitant on my opinion on the OP coin until I do a bit more looking. Anything that is new and unique needs to be looked at with a "glass" so to speak. I will do a bit more research and hopefully I can come up with something.
FYI, my first impression is that the piece is legit!
<< <i>This is a really cool piece!
I am studying this thread a bit (first time I saw it was yesterday) before I have an actual opinion, however, there are many trial strikes of similar Washington pieces known. The obverses and reverses of the Large and Small Eagle Washington Cents are all known struck on small, test planchets and are only struck on one side. They appeared in the Garrett Sale, and sold to John Ford, and subsequently sold in his auction in May 2004. There were a lot of similarities between those and your piece.
However, not being a real expert on these trial pieces, I am a bit hesitant on my opinion on the OP coin until I do a bit more looking. Anything that is new and unique needs to be looked at with a "glass" so to speak. I will do a bit more research and hopefully I can come up with something.
FYI, my first impression is that the piece is legit! >>
Thank you New England for for information.
I've been trying to find any images of the un-faced strikes you mention above, with no luck. Appleton's medal, the Breen #1237 is at the Massachusetts Historical Society Museum. I've been in contact with their numsimatics curator who tells me it will be three weeks before they will have time to locate it and image it. Can you direct me to any other images from the sales you mention above. Although I'm aware of those sales I can not get any images.
I agree any new entry into this category must be examine and reexamined with with a "glass" as you say. That is exactly what I've done with this medal as you can see from the details I've scrutinized to rule out its being a Collins re-strike. In that process I'm now convinced the Collins re-strike is either an altered original die or a die that was made by Collins.
I hope you'll share the results of your deliberation on my obverse strike with me when your done.
Well I'm late to the party but I have pictures of the Colliss die!
