1993 Finest Baseball Box Rips

gosteelers

In light of the recent Jose Canseco refractor pull, I wanted to see if many others have ripped any '93 Finest baseball? If so, what did you get in terms of a refractor? Did you get 1 or 2 refractors per box (maybe zero)? I'm trying to see if any of the perceived short prints have been pulled or if they are generally the more common refractors.

tsalems1

Very first 1993 refractor I pulled was a Ryan

Boxes I opened had 1 refractor

gosteelers

<< <i>Very first 1993 refractor I pulled was a Ryan

Boxes I opened had 1 refractor >>



Wow, a Nolan Ryan...impressive! Not that you were greedy at that point, but was it centered? How many boxes do you estimate that you ripped?

tsalems1

<< <i>

<< <i>Very first 1993 refractor I pulled was a Ryan

Boxes I opened had 1 refractor >>



Wow, a Nolan Ryan...impressive! Not that you were greedy at that point, but was it centered? How many boxes do you estimate that you ripped? >>



I don't remember on the centering, it was a while ago.

I probably opened a case +

At 1 point I had around a 100 or so refractors. There is a board member who has a boat load of them

PhilG

I am probably the member who has the boatload of refractors. I have 3371. As for short prints, Beckett defines a short print as 20% of the production run. In the case of 93 Finest refractors that’s 49 cards. I don’t believe in short prints. I think they are all hoards like mine. I have an asterisk in Beckett for Randy Myers. I have 110 of them or 45% of the production run. I’ve made nine other short prints which Beckett doesn’t even know about. I am currently chasing John Franco and Doug Jones for another two short prints.

Phil

jackstraw

Do you have any empty boxes with Griffey or Frank Thomas on top?

PhilG

I have no empty boxes. I've opened only one box ever and pulled a J.T. Snow.

Phil

gosteelers

Bump...anyone else?

Juggs

I cracked a box about 10 years ago and pulled 1. I think they generally run 1 per box though I've had a few friends claim to have received 2.

Wasn't the rumor at one time that the refractor was always in the same pack in the box?

PhilG

The following is from a newsgroup in 2000:

From Google:
Andy Kimball
Newsgroups: rec.collecting.cards.discuss Mar 14 2000, 3:00 am
From: "Andy Kimball" <cardd...@go.com> - Find messages by this author
Date: 2000/03/14
Subject: Re: should I open up 1993 finest baseball box??
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
Actually, I'm almost positive the odds were 1 in 15 packs.
I remember reading it somewhere (probably the Topps Press release - they
sent out 2 press releases about a month apart - the first was for a 198 card
set (no Piazza) and the second was to inform dealers of their inclusion of
Rookie Superstar Mike Piazza) plus we opened 24 boxes of '93 Finest and it
seemed every fifth box had 2 refractors the rest had 1 -- we got 30
refractors out of 24 boxes, the best of them was Don Mattingly & George
Brett.
-- Andy

lahmejoon

I'm curious, does Beckett's definition of short prints of 20% imply that if the normal production run is 271, it would actually take owning 222 of them to create the short print? That would leave 20% of the total production run outstanding.

vladguerrero

<< <i>I'm curious, does Beckett's definition of short prints of 20% imply that if the normal production run is 271, it would actually take owning 222 of them to create the short print? That would leave 20% of the total production run outstanding. >>



I wouldn't bet the farm on the normal production run actually being 271.

ClockworkAngel

<< <i>I am probably the member who has the boatload of refractors. I have 3371.

Phil >>



Am I the only one completely blown away by this???

Congrats Phil!

dtkk49a

Weren't there rumors of a lot more of these refractors being produced than originally thought? Do the PSA pop totals look right?

gosteelers

<< <i>Weren't there rumors of a lot more of these refractors being produced than originally thought? Do the PSA pop totals look right? >>



There are many crack and resubmits with this set (much like other high profile sets). It seems that certain cards are always available at the click of the mouse, but there are definitely a handful of much tougher cards, mainly cards that many would consider commons. There was a time about 6-7 years ago that saw many PSA 10s get assigned on cards that didn't seem worthy, so the PSA 10 population is much higher than it should be.

CDsNuts

The production run is a little more than what was inserted into packs. I'm pretty sure Topps backdoored some sets, how many I don't know. At the '95 National I bought a bunch of singles from a dealer who had a complete set that he claimed he bought directly from Topps.

otwcards

The short prints really aren't short prints. They were just hoarded from production. I know that during the heyday, I was building and selling refractor sets and also filling several clients with specific players. The two players that I know were pretty common, but got swallowed up and eventually listed as short prints were Al Martin (my client had over 100 and I filled him with more than 30) and Mickey Tettleton (which kept going to a guy outside of Detroit). I'm pretty sure most of the others were the same story. Beckett eventually started noting the "tougher" ones and dealers started charging premiums for the perceived "shorties."

I broke several cases of the product as well as numerous loose boxes. The refractors packs were usually identifiable and averaged 1 per box. It got to the point that dealers were opening boxes, pulling the refractor pack and selling the rest of the box by the pack.

Back in the day, Long Island dealer Bob Nappi was one of the larger holders of the '93 refractors on the East Coast. Eventually, a glut showed up (probably from the back door) out of Tustin, CA. Shortly thereafter, I got out of the refractor game although I still have about half a set stashed somewhere...




** Edit: Per request to eliminate info that may be used by pack searchers...

ClockworkAngel

Interesting stuff...the 1993 Finest refractor set was a big reason I got out of the hobby as I could see the direction it was going and didn't like it. But I had no idea that refractors still were relevant and had such a large demand today

PhilG

And speaking of Bob Nappe here is his price list from 1996. All cards are raw.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service

Board: TRADING CARDS BB
Topic: BASEBALL 80 & NEWER
Subject: 93 REF'S CONTINUED

To: All Date: 7/10/96
From: JWDL40A Robert Nappe Time: 1:23PM ET
Board: TRADING CARDS BB
Topic: BASEBALL 80 & NEWER
Subject: 93 REF'S PART-1

Nappe's Cards
Bethpage,N.Y11714

1)David Justice-$250 2)Lou Whitaker-$65
3)Bryan Harvey-$350 4)Carlos Garcia-$75
5)Sid Fernandez-$50 6)Brett Butler-$65
7)Scott Cooper-$75 8)B.J.Surhoff-$75
9)Steve Finley-$75 10)Curt Schilling-$375
11)Jeff Bagwell-Wanted 12)Alex Cole-$275
13)John Olerud-$85 14)John Smiley-$65
15)Bip Roberts-$60 16)Albert Belle-$900
17)Duane Ward-$45 18)Alan TRammell-$85
19)Andy Benes-$75 20)Reggie Sanders-$175
21)Todd Zeile-$85 22)Rick Aguilera-$60
23)Dave Hollins-$85 24)Jose Rijo-$50
25)Matt Williams-$425 26)Sandy Alomar-$100
27)Alex Fernandez-$100 28)Ozzie Smith-$250
29)Ramon Martinez-$65 30)Bernie Williams-$175
31)Gary Sheffield-$225 32)Eric Karros-$150
33)Frank Viola-$45 34)Kevin Young-$90
35)Ken Hill-$65 36)Tony Fernandez-$50
37)Tim Wakefield-$65 38)John Kruk-$225
39)Chris Sabo-$225 40)Marquis Grissom-$450
41)Glenn Davis-$375 42)Jeff Montgomery-$50
43)Ken Lofton-$450 44)John Burkett-$65
45)Darryl Hamilton-$75 46)Jim Abbott-$80
47)Ivan Rodriguez-Wanted 48)Eric Young-$125
49)Mitch Williams-$45 50)Harold Reynolds-$60
51)Brian Harper-$50 52)Rafael Palmeiro-$175
53)Bret Saberhagen-$90 54)Jeff Conine-$175
55)Ivan Calderon-$50 56)Juan Guzman-$75
57)Carlos Baerga-$250 58)Charles Nagy-$175
59)Wally Joyner-$125 60)Charlie Hayes
61)Shane Mack-$105 62)Pete Harnisch-$55
63)George Brett-$750 64)Lance Johnson-$75
65)Ben McDonald-$75 66)Bobby Bonilla-$90
67)Terry Steinbach-$65 68)Ron Gant-$125
69)Doug Jones-$45 70)Paul Molitor-$575
71)Brady Anderson-$250 72)Chuck Finley-$75
73)Mark Grace-Wanted 74)Mike Devereaux-$70
75)Tony Phillips-$85 76)Chuck Knoblaugh-$325
77)Tony Gwynn-$650 78)Kevin Appier-$95
79)Sammy Sosa-$600 80)Mickey Tettleton-$150
81)Felix Jose-$225 82)Mark Langston-$65
83)Gregg Jefferies-$80 84)Andre Dawson-$225
85)Greg Maddux-$1650 86)Rickey Henderson-$275
87)Tom Glavine-$275 88)Robrto Alomar-$675
89)Darrly Strawberry-$65 90)Wade Boggs-$225
91)Bo Jackson-$75 92)Mark McGwire-$375
93)Robin Ventura-$115 94)Joe Carted-$150
95)Lee Smith-$85 96)Cal Ripken-$2750
97)Larry Walker-$295 98)Don Mattingly-$525
99)Jose Canseco-$275 100)Dennis Eckersley-$125
101)Terry Pendleton-$85 102)Frank Thomas-$1550
103)Barry Bonbs-$575 104)Roger Clemens-$175
105)Ryne Sandberg-$300 106)Fred McGriff-$300
107)Nolan Ryan-$1700 108)Will Clark-$225
109)Pat Listach-$50 110)Ken Griffey,Jr-$1550
111)Cecil Fielder-$150 112)Kirby Puckett-$325
113)Doc Gooden-$125 114)Barry Larkin-$250
115)David Cone-$125 116)Juan Gonzalez-$1350
117)Kent Hrbek-$55 118)Tim Wallach-$50
119)Craig Biggio-$125 120)Bobby Kelly-$45
121)Gregg Olson-$45 122)Eddie Murray-$575
123)Wildredo Cordero-$125 124)Jay Buhner-$275
125)Carlton Fisk-$140 126)Eric Davis-$80
127)Doug Drabek-$50 128)Ozzie Guillen-$50
129)John Wetteland-$80 130)Andes Galarraga-$200
131)Ken Caminiti-$95 132)Tom Candiotti-$45
133)Pat Borders-$45 134)Kevin Brown-$225
135)Travis Fryman-$125 136)Kevin mitchell-$60
137)Greg Swindell-$45 138)Benny Santiago-$75
139)Reggie Jefferson-$55 140)Chris Bosio-$45
141)Deion Sanders-$200 142)Scott Erickson-$50
143)Howard Johnson-$50 144)Orestes Destrade-$50
145)Jose Guzman-$45 146)Chad Curtis-$65
147)Cal Eldred-$60 148)Willie Greene-$60
149)Tommy Greene-$50 150)Erik Hanson-$50
151)Bob Welch-$50 152)John Jaha-$65
153)Harold Baines-$125 154)Randy Johnson-$725
155)Al Martin-$95 156)J.T.Snow-$150
157)Mike Mussina-$400 158)Ruben Sierrra-$85
159)Dean Palmer-$125 160)Steve Avery-$100
161)Juilo Franco-$125 162)Dave Winfield-$175
163)Tim Salmon-$425 164)Tom Henke-$55
165)Mo Vaughn-$525 166)John Smoltz-$300
167)Danny Tartabull-$65 168)Delino DeShields-$55
169)Charlie Hough-$55 170)Paul O'Neil-$125
171)Darren Daulton-$80 172)Jack McDowell-$110
173)Junior Felix-$250 174)Jimmy Key-$75
175)George Bell-$55 176)Mike Stanton-$45
177)Len Dyksra-$75 178)Norm Charlton-$60
179)Eric Anthony-$60 180)Rob Dibble-$45
181)Otis Nixon-$55 182)Randy Myers-Wanted
183)Tim Raines-$65 184)Orel Hershisier-$110
185)Andy Van Slyke-$65 186)Mike Lansing-$105
187)Ray Lankford-$75 188)Mike Morgan-$45
189)Moises Alou-$175 190)Edgar Martinez-$225
191)John Franco-$65 192)Robin Yount-$225
193)Bob Tewksbury-$225 194)Jay Bell-$65
195)Luis Gonzalez-$45 196)Dave Fleming-$45
197)Mike Greenwell-$65 198)DAvid Neid-$85
199)Mike Piazza-$1100

gosteelers

<< <i>And speaking of Bob Nappe here is his price list from 1996. All cards are raw.

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service

Board: TRADING CARDS BB
Topic: BASEBALL 80 & NEWER
Subject: 93 REF'S CONTINUED

To: All Date: 7/10/96
From: JWDL40A Robert Nappe Time: 1:23PM ET
Board: TRADING CARDS BB
Topic: BASEBALL 80 & NEWER
Subject: 93 REF'S PART-1

Nappe's Cards
Bethpage,N.Y11714

1)David Justice-$250 2)Lou Whitaker-$65
3)Bryan Harvey-$350 4)Carlos Garcia-$75
5)Sid Fernandez-$50 6)Brett Butler-$65
7)Scott Cooper-$75 8)B.J.Surhoff-$75
9)Steve Finley-$75 10)Curt Schilling-$375
11)Jeff Bagwell-Wanted 12)Alex Cole-$275
13)John Olerud-$85 14)John Smiley-$65
15)Bip Roberts-$60 16)Albert Belle-$900
17)Duane Ward-$45 18)Alan TRammell-$85
19)Andy Benes-$75 20)Reggie Sanders-$175
21)Todd Zeile-$85 22)Rick Aguilera-$60
23)Dave Hollins-$85 24)Jose Rijo-$50
25)Matt Williams-$425 26)Sandy Alomar-$100
27)Alex Fernandez-$100 28)Ozzie Smith-$250
29)Ramon Martinez-$65 30)Bernie Williams-$175
31)Gary Sheffield-$225 32)Eric Karros-$150
33)Frank Viola-$45 34)Kevin Young-$90
35)Ken Hill-$65 36)Tony Fernandez-$50
37)Tim Wakefield-$65 38)John Kruk-$225
39)Chris Sabo-$225 40)Marquis Grissom-$450
41)Glenn Davis-$375 42)Jeff Montgomery-$50
43)Ken Lofton-$450 44)John Burkett-$65
45)Darryl Hamilton-$75 46)Jim Abbott-$80
47)Ivan Rodriguez-Wanted 48)Eric Young-$125
49)Mitch Williams-$45 50)Harold Reynolds-$60
51)Brian Harper-$50 52)Rafael Palmeiro-$175
53)Bret Saberhagen-$90 54)Jeff Conine-$175
55)Ivan Calderon-$50 56)Juan Guzman-$75
57)Carlos Baerga-$250 58)Charles Nagy-$175
59)Wally Joyner-$125 60)Charlie Hayes
61)Shane Mack-$105 62)Pete Harnisch-$55
63)George Brett-$750 64)Lance Johnson-$75
65)Ben McDonald-$75 66)Bobby Bonilla-$90
67)Terry Steinbach-$65 68)Ron Gant-$125
69)Doug Jones-$45 70)Paul Molitor-$575
71)Brady Anderson-$250 72)Chuck Finley-$75
73)Mark Grace-Wanted 74)Mike Devereaux-$70
75)Tony Phillips-$85 76)Chuck Knoblaugh-$325
77)Tony Gwynn-$650 78)Kevin Appier-$95
79)Sammy Sosa-$600 80)Mickey Tettleton-$150
81)Felix Jose-$225 82)Mark Langston-$65
83)Gregg Jefferies-$80 84)Andre Dawson-$225
85)Greg Maddux-$1650 86)Rickey Henderson-$275
87)Tom Glavine-$275 88)Robrto Alomar-$675
89)Darrly Strawberry-$65 90)Wade Boggs-$225
91)Bo Jackson-$75 92)Mark McGwire-$375
93)Robin Ventura-$115 94)Joe Carted-$150
95)Lee Smith-$85 96)Cal Ripken-$2750
97)Larry Walker-$295 98)Don Mattingly-$525
99)Jose Canseco-$275 100)Dennis Eckersley-$125
101)Terry Pendleton-$85 102)Frank Thomas-$1550
103)Barry Bonbs-$575 104)Roger Clemens-$175
105)Ryne Sandberg-$300 106)Fred McGriff-$300
107)Nolan Ryan-$1700 108)Will Clark-$225
109)Pat Listach-$50 110)Ken Griffey,Jr-$1550
111)Cecil Fielder-$150 112)Kirby Puckett-$325
113)Doc Gooden-$125 114)Barry Larkin-$250
115)David Cone-$125 116)Juan Gonzalez-$1350
117)Kent Hrbek-$55 118)Tim Wallach-$50
119)Craig Biggio-$125 120)Bobby Kelly-$45
121)Gregg Olson-$45 122)Eddie Murray-$575
123)Wildredo Cordero-$125 124)Jay Buhner-$275
125)Carlton Fisk-$140 126)Eric Davis-$80
127)Doug Drabek-$50 128)Ozzie Guillen-$50
129)John Wetteland-$80 130)Andes Galarraga-$200
131)Ken Caminiti-$95 132)Tom Candiotti-$45
133)Pat Borders-$45 134)Kevin Brown-$225
135)Travis Fryman-$125 136)Kevin mitchell-$60
137)Greg Swindell-$45 138)Benny Santiago-$75
139)Reggie Jefferson-$55 140)Chris Bosio-$45
141)Deion Sanders-$200 142)Scott Erickson-$50
143)Howard Johnson-$50 144)Orestes Destrade-$50
145)Jose Guzman-$45 146)Chad Curtis-$65
147)Cal Eldred-$60 148)Willie Greene-$60
149)Tommy Greene-$50 150)Erik Hanson-$50
151)Bob Welch-$50 152)John Jaha-$65
153)Harold Baines-$125 154)Randy Johnson-$725
155)Al Martin-$95 156)J.T.Snow-$150
157)Mike Mussina-$400 158)Ruben Sierrra-$85
159)Dean Palmer-$125 160)Steve Avery-$100
161)Juilo Franco-$125 162)Dave Winfield-$175
163)Tim Salmon-$425 164)Tom Henke-$55
165)Mo Vaughn-$525 166)John Smoltz-$300
167)Danny Tartabull-$65 168)Delino DeShields-$55
169)Charlie Hough-$55 170)Paul O'Neil-$125
171)Darren Daulton-$80 172)Jack McDowell-$110
173)Junior Felix-$250 174)Jimmy Key-$75
175)George Bell-$55 176)Mike Stanton-$45
177)Len Dyksra-$75 178)Norm Charlton-$60
179)Eric Anthony-$60 180)Rob Dibble-$45
181)Otis Nixon-$55 182)Randy Myers-Wanted
183)Tim Raines-$65 184)Orel Hershisier-$110
185)Andy Van Slyke-$65 186)Mike Lansing-$105
187)Ray Lankford-$75 188)Mike Morgan-$45
189)Moises Alou-$175 190)Edgar Martinez-$225
191)John Franco-$65 192)Robin Yount-$225
193)Bob Tewksbury-$225 194)Jay Bell-$65
195)Luis Gonzalez-$45 196)Dave Fleming-$45
197)Mike Greenwell-$65 198)DAvid Neid-$85
199)Mike Piazza-$1100 >>



Hi Phil,
Thanks for providing this list. A few stick out as crazy now:

Bryan Harvey (used to be a hoarded card, though)
Albert Belle (is that price accurate, or did you add a zero?)
Reggie Sanders (not sure why that one was so high)
Matt Williams, Alex Fernandez, John Kruk, Chris Sabo, Glenn Davis, Marquis Grissom, Kenny Lofton, and Eric Karros (all stick out as really high, as do many others)

You must have already had your hoard of Randy Myers at the time!

Key, Destrade, Bernie, Hershiser, and Jay Bell all have low prices despite now being five of the tougher cards to get.

Andre Dawson's price may have already been inflated due to him personally hoarding his own refractors. Does anyone remember the story about an Illinois dealer (Kevin Hense) dealing with Dawson directly on his refractors?

PhilG

Albert Belle has come down a bit from $900. The last sold on eBay went for $27.99. His PSA 9 hasn’t done much better at $38. My website has the latest eBay pricing.

1954

Phil
That is one heck of a collection of refractors you have there. Pretty amazing that you have continued with your plan for 20 years as many are not that committed to that.

stevebay

<< <i>Andre Dawson's price may have already been inflated due to him personally hoarding his own refractors. Does anyone remember the story about an Illinois dealer (Kevin Hense) dealing with Dawson directly on his refractors? >>



How ironic, I just read this article today from an old Beckett from 1996:

ClockworkAngel

That's so odd. Plenty of players collect their own cards, (Garvey likes to look at pictures of himself), but for him to only hoard the refractor seems a bit random. ...but it's a great story. I love hearing about things like that.

Tony Gwynn is a great guy but really doesn't love signing his 1983 Topps card because he hates the card. Being a card collector and fan growing up, he was excited to see his Topps RC when he made it to the bigs. What he saw was a picture of his ass....he has hated the card ever since

gosteelers

maddux69

Here is a recent sale of a raw 1993 Finest Greg Maddux refractor:

1993 Finest Maddux Refractor

previous sales don't even come close to the price this one brought, needless to say I was blown out of the water with my bid!

LarkinCollector

<< <i>Here is a recent sale of a raw 1993 Finest Greg Maddux refractor:

1993 Finest Maddux Refractor

previous sales don't even come close to the price this one brought, needless to say I was blown out of the water with my bid! >>


The Larkin was bringing in stupid money right after his HOF vote was finalized as well. Be patient, I just picked my Larkin up for under $40 delivered recently.

jeffcbay

<< <i>Here is a recent sale of a raw 1993 Finest Greg Maddux refractor:

1993 Finest Maddux Refractor

previous sales don't even come close to the price this one brought, needless to say I was blown out of the water with my bid! >>



That'll be a PSA 9 on a good day. Insane price...

PhilG

A PSA 9 sold on Jan 13 for 349.99 BIN.

maddux69

<< <i>A PSA 9 sold on Jan 13 for 349.99 BIN. >>



And it went like lightening. I saw it come up in my saved searches, looked immediately and my happiness went to sadness when I had seen that it had been sold long before I came along. Somebody didn't do their research before listing as it shouldn't have sold for less than $600.

Estil

<< <i>That's so odd. Plenty of players collect their own cards, (Garvey likes to look at pictures of himself) >>



So this would describe Mr. Garvey (1:30 into the video), correct?

Stingray

Bagwell-Wanted. That has to be one of the most expensive refractors from this set. Always wanted one, when I was a hudge Bagwell fan, but of course was way too expensive.

PhilG

The last raw Bagwell went for $112.49. The last PSA 9 went for $143.15. That's why I don't collect stars. I pickup some commons for $10.99 each.

Phil

jmsodpc

i remember these packs selling for $20 per pack back in 1993..seems like they are still about the same price per pack 22 years later when you can find them.

ebay always has some full boxes for sale and so do some auction houses.