<< <i>I heard Ichiro and Edgar Martinez popped PEDs like they were candy.
Not my rules but it sure is an easy game to play. >>
So there was a huge culture of known PED users in Seattle? What's the matter, stownie, you upset that your martyr is being linked to PED use? When you do it to other players its fine, but when its your golden goose you get upset?
Houston was an epicenter of PED use. I'll say it again: Caminiti (self professed PED user and abuser), Petite (again, admitted to using), Clemens (was likely the ring leader). Then when Clemens arrives in Houston in 2004, Biggio, at age THIRTY AGE, hits a career high in HR. The next year, goes even higher. And we're not supposed to link the two?
Then the topper! You have the nerve to bring 'hit totals' into the Ichiro portion of the argument. Forget the fact that hit totals is probably one of the most inaccurate forms of measurement...but the fact that you completely scoffed at that point in the Biggio/McGwire debate just shows that you change stances based on what props up your hero or not. When it came to Ichiro, you have always bashed the HR, saying it was overrated...now you do the opposite. >>
I bring up hit totals because it's the one number that Biggio is likely to be enshrined on. If he doesn't hang around for those three extra years, taking who knows what (as this time just happened to coincide with Clemens arriving in Houston, but let's ignore that for now), he doesn't get to 3000 hits and NOBODY, I mean NOBODY is pushing for his Hall candidacy. If he doesn't hit that plateau, you and I both know he doesn't even get 5% of the vote his first year and he's dropped from the ballot.
It's interesting that NVbaseball still continues to dodge the admission that he doesn't know who votes for what award, that he still thinks those who votes for the MVP are the same as golden gloves.
Come on man, just admit you screwed up, you didn't know, you made a huge leap in logic on that lack of knowledge, and you blew it.
As far as comparing him to middle infielders, that's not how this game works. We don't vote in the best at every position in each era, and we certainly don't take five year runs of above average production in an era in which pitching was down and offense was way up.
Ax, you have to look objectively. His production is not easily replaced.
To summarize my above post:
WAR................the Offensive portion is not as accurate as the two measurements below, and the defenisve/positional adjustment has error problems(but there does need to be some position allowance). BIggio 64.9 McGwire 62 Ichiro 58.5
Win Probability Added(play by play data) McGwire 53 Biggio 31.5 Ichiro 15
Run Expectancy Created(play by play data) McGwire 578 Biggio 372 Ichiro 179
Career OPS+ McGwire 163 Biggio 112 Ichiro 111
Bill James Career Win Shares Biggio 411 McGwire 342 Ichiro 300(I estimated his last couple of years, so this isn't exact)
The two comprehenisve(offense, defense, position adjustment) WAR and Bill James Winshares, have Biggio ahead of McGwire and Ichiro. If Biggio is easily replaced, that makes Ichiro super easy to replace.
The two most accurate offensive measures (WPA and Run Expectancy) have McGwire ahead of Biggio, and Biggio well ahead of Ichiro. This is the MOST accurate of the value they gave their teams in runs and wins.
The reality is, there is no argument to put Ichiro ahead of Biggio, none. Biggio and McGwire are interesting arguments. Clearly McGwire was the better offensive player. It then becomes a matter of the positional adjustment which is debatable.
However, any argument against the positional adjustment to Biggio, just absolutely KILLS Ichiro, because OF is not as high an adjustment as 2B...and Biggio already kills Ichiro offensively.
Let's conveniently ignore the fact that Ichiro lost 7 years in his prime to his time in Japan. He didn't get to start in the bigs until 27 and his immediate impact shows he was big league ready. Who knows how much production he lost out on, but it's not difficult to see that there are a ton of numbers missing.
<< <i>Let's conveniently ignore the fact that Ichiro lost 7 years in his prime to his time in Japan. He didn't get to start in the bigs until 27 and his immediate impact shows he was big league ready. Who knows how much production he lost out on, but it's not difficult to see that there are a ton of numbers missing. >>
We went over that before. You are assuming he would be an above average starter at age 20?? Really? A corner outfielder in the minor leagues with no power, probably doesn't even break into the bigs until age 23-24. Then he takes his growing pains.
In a logical examination of what he missed, there is NO WAY he makes up the ground in the two key offensive measrurements. HEck, even if you doubled his prime years, he STILL doesn't make it up.
<< <i> We went over that before. You are assuming he would be an above average starter at age 20?? Really? A corner outfielder in the minor leagues with no power, probably doesn't even break into the bigs until age 23-24. Then he takes his growing pains. >>
You're also assuming (a) I said he'd be above average at 20 (I didn't say that) and (b) it would take him three years to break in? Come on man, his skill set was evident from the beginning in Japan, and despite the perception, there isn't the massive drop off in talent as assumed. He'd have been an every day starter much younger than 27.
<< <i>In a logical examination of what he missed, there is NO WAY he makes up the ground in the two key offensive measrurements. HEck, even if you doubled his prime years, he STILL doesn't make it up. >>
He'd likely be well on his way to 4,000 hits if he'd played his entire career in MLB. That being said, we're talking about Biggio.
Answer this honestly: if he doesn't get to 3000 hits, does Biggio even make it past the first year of balloting?
I wish you the best of luck with that one. In a perfect world, he'd incorporate some objectivity. But it's not about that with him. It's about finding a reason to dislike someone or something and running with it. Even if it means contradicting himself many times over within the same thread.
According to him, Biggio hung around three seasons too long. Also according to him, it's very curious that he was banging out home runs during those exact same seasons. In other words, his production tailed off and he should have been out of baseball. Oh, but the one aspect of his game that didn't tail off and actually improved? Couldn't have been accomplished legitimately.
It's because he played for the Astros that we're even having this "debate." 1985fan hates anything and everything Houston. If Craig Biggio had played for his favorite team for 20 years, he'd be stopping on a dime again.
<< <i> According to him, Biggio hung around three seasons too long. Also according to him, it's very curious that he was banging out home runs during those exact same seasons. In other words, his production tailed off and he should have been out of baseball. Oh, but the one aspect of his game that didn't tail off and actually improved? Couldn't have been accomplished legitimately. >>
Right, because 38 year old guys just start hitting home runs at career peaks 'legitimately'. Oh, and they do it as one of the biggest names in the PED era arrives on the scene. And you want to hit at me and my objectivity?
<< <i>It's because he played for the Astros that we're even having this "debate." 1985fan hates anything and everything Houston. If Craig Biggio had played for his favorite team for 20 years, he'd be stopping on a dime again. >>
No, it's because I want my hall of fame to incorporate the very best players, not guys like Biggio. I want McGwire, I want Bonds, I want Clemens, I want the best of the best players in the hall. I don't want it diluted further than it already has been.
Awww, someone is really upset. I'm positive Ichiro has some illegal drugs that will make him feel better.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>Awww, someone is really upset. I'm positive Ichiro has some illegal drugs that will make him feel better.
>>
Yeah, you're the someone that is really upset. Hilarious. Your golden goose Biggio getting (righfully) suspected of PED use has really made you mad. Made you so mad you had to log in both your IDs to reply.
Biggio - likely PED user who extended his career to achieve 3000 hits. While McGwire's numbers merit induction with PED use, even by using Biggio still isn't worthy.
<< <i>I wish you the best of luck with that one. In a perfect world, he'd incorporate some objectivity. But it's not about that with him. It's about finding a reason to dislike someone or something and running with it. Even if it means contradicting himself many times over within the same thread. >>
This is the answer. If you guys who like a good debate can't see how he goes about it, or don't care, that's fine.
I made the decision not to waste my time arguing with him.
My suggestion is to ignore him as soon as he starts getting stupid (or before), that's usually pretty quickly. He does not have the ability, intelligence or just plain common sense to EVER admit he is in error about ANYTHING.
Have fun!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Dude, you're acting like he pulled a Brady Anderson out of nowhere. His last four seasons he hit 24, 26, 21, and 10, respectively.
In '93 he hit 21. In '95 he hit 22. In '97 he hit 22. In '98 he hit 20. All at the Astrodome.
The Astros started playing at Enron/Minute Maid in 2000.
If he hits one 330 feet to left field in the cavernous Astrodome, it's caught on the track. If he hits that same ball in Enron/Minute Maid, it's in the Crawford Boxes.
So taking that into account, let's use our noggins and give him credit for an extra handful of dingers to put your latest and greatest notion to bed.
<< <i>Dude, you're acting like he pulled a Brady Anderson out of nowhere. His last four seasons he hit 24, 26, 21, and 10, respectively. >>
In the four years leading up to that career high of 24 and 26?
8, (!!!), 20, 15, 15. He went from back to back years of 15 at age 38 up to 24. All in a year when Clemens arrived in town, and we're just supposed to say 'eh, it happens!'
<< <i>In '93 he hit 21. In '95 he hit 22. In '97 he hit 22. In '98 he hit 20. All at the Astrodome. >>
In the prime of his career. At ages 27, 29, 30. The prime of his career (as has been explained over and over in this thread).
<< <i>The Astros started playing at Enron/Minute Maid in 2000.
If he hits one 330 feet to left field in the cavernous Astrodome, it's caught on the track. If he hits that same ball in Enron/Minute Maid, it's in the Crawford Boxes.
So taking that into account, let's use our noggins and give him credit for an extra handful of dingers to put your latest and greatest notion to bed. >>
The first year of playing in this new 'homer friendly' field, he hit EIGHT HOME RUNS. Eight! Then proceeded to hit 20, then 15, then 15. After that, Clemens hits town, and he throws up back to back years of 24 and 26 at ages 38 and 39? Blind, homer fans are so easily fooled.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Ax, you are going at it wrong with that steroid time table, because it hurts your argument. Again, if he started doing roids those years, then it means he was clean for the bulk of his career(and was competing against a league full of juicers). THat would make his prime all the more impressive.
Ichiro and Edgar both played with Alex, therefore they're PED abusers and drug mules.
Tisk, tisk, tisk.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>Updated: Jan.3 - 7:10 ~ 112 Full Ballots ~ (19.7% of vote ~ based on last year)
100 - Maddux 97.3 - Glavine 90.2 - F. Thomas 81.3 - Biggio ——————————— 73.2 - Piazza 66.1 - Bagwell 61.6 - Jack (The Jack) Morris 57.1 - Raines 45.5 - Bonds 44.6 - Clemens 39.3 - Schilling 33.0 - Mussina 24.0 - Trammell 21.4 - E. Martinez 18.8 - L. Smith 14.3 - McGriff 13.4 - Kent 10.7 - L. Walker 10.7 - McGwire 8.0 - S. Sosa 7.1 - R. Palmeiro ——————————— 4.5 - Mattingly 0.9 - P. Rose (Write-In) >>
.9 Rose, write in, LOL!
Mattingly not even at 5%.
Would love to see Piazza close the gap to get to 75%.
Glavine is getting stronger support than I expected. Over 97%, man that's Seaver territory. Both Maddux and Tommy G are right there.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Biggio at 81% is a travesty to the hall, and showing how out of touch these voters are. So desperate they are to try to distance themselves from the very PED users they worshiped they now want to vote in who they think is the anti-PED, despite the large number of 'coincidences' of players arriving and his huge boost in power numbers at the end of his career. I'd love for him to get enshrined then for the PED accusations to be proven true. If and when that happens, it will open the floodgates for the REAL Hall of Famers like Clemens, Bonds, and McGwire to get inducted and take their rightful place among the all time greats.
<< <i>Updated: Jan.3 - 7:10 ~ 112 Full Ballots ~ (19.7% of vote ~ based on last year)
100 - Maddux 97.3 - Glavine 90.2 - F. Thomas 81.3 - Biggio ——————————— 73.2 - Piazza 66.1 - Bagwell 61.6 - Jack (The Jack) Morris 57.1 - Raines 45.5 - Bonds 44.6 - Clemens 39.3 - Schilling 33.0 - Mussina 24.0 - Trammell 21.4 - E. Martinez 18.8 - L. Smith 14.3 - McGriff 13.4 - Kent 10.7 - L. Walker 10.7 - McGwire 8.0 - S. Sosa 7.1 - R. Palmeiro ——————————— 4.5 - Mattingly 0.9 - P. Rose (Write-In) >>
.9 Rose, write in, LOL!
Mattingly not even at 5%.
Would love to see Piazza close the gap to get to 75%.
Glavine is getting stronger support than I expected. Over 97%, man that's Seaver territory. Both Maddux and Tommy G are right there. >>
So far, those top four are legit Hall of Famers. Piazza may get in this year. He should of been a 1st ballot HOFer. Looks like Bagwell is going to get in next year(he has the suspicion, but looks like he is overcoming it).
For the guys that got caught for roids, they got caught. Of course there are many more who did roids that weren't caught, but it is 100% certain for the guys who did get caught, and now they have to take their punishment. Their fault for doing them, and their fault for being dumb enough to get caught in the weak testing system that was in place. Maybe they should have been smarter like the guys who managed to do it without getting caught.
<< <i>Updated: Jan.3 - 7:10 ~ 112 Full Ballots ~ (19.7% of vote ~ based on last year)
100 - Maddux 97.3 - Glavine 90.2 - F. Thomas 81.3 - Biggio ——————————— 73.2 - Piazza 66.1 - Bagwell 61.6 - Jack (The Jack) Morris 57.1 - Raines 45.5 - Bonds 44.6 - Clemens 39.3 - Schilling 33.0 - Mussina 24.0 - Trammell 21.4 - E. Martinez 18.8 - L. Smith 14.3 - McGriff 13.4 - Kent 10.7 - L. Walker 10.7 - McGwire 8.0 - S. Sosa 7.1 - R. Palmeiro ——————————— 4.5 - Mattingly 0.9 - P. Rose (Write-In) >>
.9 Rose, write in, LOL!
Mattingly not even at 5%.
Would love to see Piazza close the gap to get to 75%.
Glavine is getting stronger support than I expected. Over 97%, man that's Seaver territory. Both Maddux and Tommy G are right there. >>
So far, those top four are legit Hall of Famers. Piazza may get in this year. He should of been a 1st ballot HOFer. Looks like Bagwell is going to get in next year(he has the suspicion, but looks like he is overcoming it).
For the guys that got caught for roids, they got caught. Of course there are many more who did roids that weren't caught, but it is 100% certain for the guys who did get caught, and now they have to take their punishment. Their fault for doing them, and their fault for being dumb enough to get caught in the weak testing system that was in place. Maybe they should have been smarter like the guys who managed to do it without getting caught. >>
Skin,
What is your opinion on Raines getting in eventually? I believe he merits strong consideration and it looks like he is gaining support, too, over the years. IMO, he is an underrated player who probably would alreeady be in the Hall had he not spent the better part of his career playing in baseball Siberia.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
For the guys that got caught for roids, they got caught. Of course there are many more who did roids that weren't caught, but it is 100% certain for the guys who did get caught, and now they have to take their punishment. Their fault for doing them, and their fault for being dumb enough to get caught in the weak testing system that was in place. Maybe they should have been smarter like the guys who managed to do it without getting caught.
Skin,
What is your opinion on Raines getting in eventually? I believe he merits strong consideration and it looks like he is gaining support, too, over the years. IMO, he is an underrated player who probably would alreeady be in the Hall had he not spent the better part of his career playing in baseball Siberia. >>
I think Raines certainly merits the HOF.
I don't think he gets in next year because Unit, Pedro, and Smoltz are new entries...plus how the strong holdover candidates unfold(Piazza, Bagwell, Schilling, Mussina). Smoltz won't be a first ballot, but he is a strong candidate.
2016 has Griffey as the only lock, and then Hoffman as a candidate.
2017 has Vlad and Posada as candidates. Manny on the ballot, but umm no.
2018 has Chipper and Thome who are locks.
2019-2020 would mean players retiring this year and next. Would mean Rivera as a lock, possibly Jeter, Helton depending on when they retire...and not much else.
I say it is going to happen for Raines between 2016 and 2020 for certain. If I had to lay money, I would probably lay it on 2017, because there will be no first ballot HOF locks on that ballot. My second guess would be 2020.
Updated: Jan.4 - 1:45 ~ 123 Full Ballots ~ (21.6% of vote ~ based on last year)
100 - Maddux 97.6 - Glavine 91.1 - F. Thomas 81.3 - Biggio ——————————— 71.5 - Piazza 64.2 - Bagwell 61.8 - Jack (The Jack) Morris 60.2 - Raines 41.5 - Bonds 40.7 - Clemens 39.0 - Schilling 31.7 - Mussina 25.2 - Trammell 24.4 - E. Martinez 22.8 - L. Smith 15.4 - Kent 13.0 - McGriff 11.4 - L. Walker 9.8 - McGwire 7.3 - S. Sosa 6.5 - R. Palmeiro ——————————— 4.9 - Mattingly 0.8 - P. Rose (Write-In)
Don't know about you guys, but I'm really loving this class. Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, and Biggio will be receiving the call. I suspect Piazza will come up just short, but he'll be in next year. Glad to see Raines finally cross the 60% barrier. He should already be in, in my opinion, but at least the positive trend is continuing. He'll also walk through the doors in a few years.
<< <i> 100 - Maddux 97.6 - Glavine 91.1 - F. Thomas
These are the only three above the threshold who you watched playing and said 'yep, that's a hall of famer right there.' Biggio put up a nice career, and gee whiz he was such a nice guy, and he stayed with one team his whole career! But you don't reward that with a pass to the hall. But in this age of 'we can't let steroid users in!' the voters feel compelled to let a nice guy in, which will be all the more ironic when his obvious PED use comes to light.
81.3 - Biggio ———————————
71.5 - Piazza
If Piazza doesn't get elected, then it's obvious the hall voters have NO CLUE what they are doing. .922 lifetime OPS? 7 top 10 MVP finishes?
64.2 - Bagwell 61.8 - Jack (The Jack) Morris 60.2 - Raines
These guys all had nice careers, but sorry, you don't get in, Morris especially.
41.5 - Bonds 40.7 - Clemens
The self-professed moral police are keeping out two of the most dominant players of all time, and it's beyond pathetic. Put these guys in already and have a real hall of fame with the best players in history in, and let the plaque* tell the story.
39.0 - Schilling 31.7 - Mussina
Two above average pitchers. That's all, nothing to see here.
25.2 - Trammell
Nice career, but sorry, no HoF for nice career guys (unless you're Biggio).
24.4 - E. Martinez
One of the best hitters of all time being penalized for playing the position of DH. The position exists, writers, get over it already. You don't penalize a pitcher for not hitting, stop penalizing a DH for not playing in the field.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Both being rightfully slighted, as their stupid words at the Congress hearings are enough to convict them in the courts of morons and liars. Sosa somehow forgot to speak english, and Palmeiro just flat out lied. Two moronic liars, with classic moments that cemented their real place in history.
My fault, it was like Sosa suddenly forgot English when it was his turn to testify.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
I am in agreement with the author of that article on most points. I had mentioned the Alomar comparison in a previouis post in this same thread, and while I don't put Biggio on the level of Alomar, his prime, which essentially spanned the entire 1990s, was HOF calibre. Definitely stayed on a couple seasons too long, imo, but the fact that the majority of his career was spent at 2B and C, two very tough positions, also adds value to his resume, imo.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I am in agreement with the author of that article on most points. I had mentioned the Alomar comparison in a previouis post in this same thread, and while I don't put Biggio on the level of Alomar, his prime, which essentially spanned the entire 1990s, was HOF calibre. Definitely stayed on a couple seasons too long, imo, but the fact that the majority of his career was spent at 2B and C, two very tough positions, also adds value to his resume, imo. >>
It pretty much encompassed my thoughts as well. The comparison to Alomar is incontrovertible.
Biggio getting so much support for the hall while a true hitter like Edgar Martinez is scraping by at 35% proves just how out of touch with reality voters are.
Edgar is 21st all time in OBP, with a career OBP of 418. 68 career WAR while Biggio was at 65. Edgar .933 career OPS, good for 34th all time. Plain and simple, Edgar was one of the very best hitters of all time, but because some voters still to this day dislike the DH position, decades after it's been established, he's not in contention for the hall, which proves just how ludicrous the entire hall voting process is.
Back to the original question, when is the vote announced?
I am buying and trading for RC's of Wilt Chamberlain, George Mikan, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Bob Cousy! Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
Maddux 100% (first player ever) Glavine 95% Thomas 87% Biggio 80%
No one else makes it this year, though a few are close. Besides the steroid guys who are all time greats, I would like to see Tim Raines climb higher in the percentage, and eventually get in. An underrated player, and in my opinion, a HOFer.
I am buying and trading for RC's of Wilt Chamberlain, George Mikan, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Bob Cousy! Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
Maddux 100% (first player ever) Glavine 95% Thomas 87% Biggio 80%
No one else makes it this year, though a few are close. Besides the steroid guys who are all time greats, I would like to see Tim Raines climb higher in the percentage, and eventually get in. An underrated player, and in my opinion, a HOFer. >>
Piazza has a legitimate shot also as he is in low 70s % wise right now and most of the early votes are not from metropolitan NY area.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
100% - Maddux 97.1 - Glavine 92.1 - F. Thomas 80.7 - Biggio ——————————— 72.1 - Piazza 64.3 - Bagwell 60.0 - Jack (The Jack) Morris 59.3 - Raines 42.1 - Bonds 41.4 - Clemens 40.0 - Schilling 31.4 - Mussina 25.0 - E. Martinez 24.3 - Trammell 24.3 - L. Smith 15.0 - Kent 13.6 - McGriff 11.7 - L. Walker 9.3 - McGwire 7.9 - S. Sosa 5.7 - R. Palmeiro
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Piazza not making it in while Biggio looks to be on his way? Pathetic. And baseball fans wonder why more and more people are running away from the sport? Nonsense like this being allowed to happen certainly isn't helping the sport.
Don't tell me it's Frank Thomas' first turn on the HOF ballot already!! Geez, I remember in the 90s reading all those Becketts as a teen in the mid 90s and seeing him with his 34 month straight run on the Hot list, then Griffey and he battling for it back and forth, both on the 10th anniversary cover (Nov 1994), there was even a SNES/GEN video game back then called Big Hurt Baseball.
But now it's already 2014, I'm nearing 34 years old (March 22) and most chilling of all...the FUTURE is next year (as the second Back to the Future movie defines it)!
<< <i>Piazza not making it in while Biggio looks to be on his way? Pathetic. And baseball fans wonder why more and more people are running away from the sport? Nonsense like this being allowed to happen certainly isn't helping the sport. >>
I don't get it either; wasn't Piazza the second best catcher of the 90s (sorry Piazza fans but he's got NOTHING on Ivan's rifle arm, plus Pudge II could hit just as well if not better and was a much better fielder)? I'd think he'd make first ballot just as easily as Big Hurt and Mad Dog. I wouldn't count on Maddux making 100% though...I mean if Ryan, Ripken, or even MAYS couldn't do it, well...
<< <i>Piazza not making it in while Biggio looks to be on his way? Pathetic. And baseball fans wonder why more and more people are running away from the sport? Nonsense like this being allowed to happen certainly isn't helping the sport. >>
I don't get it either; wasn't Piazza the second best catcher of the 90s (sorry Piazza fans but he's got NOTHING on Ivan's rifle arm, plus Pudge II could hit just as well if not better and was a much better fielder)? I'd think he'd make first ballot just as easily as Big Hurt and Mad Dog. I wouldn't count on Maddux making 100% though...I mean if Ryan, Ripken, or even MAYS couldn't do it, well... >>
Piazza was a far better hitter than Pudge...career OPS+ 143 to 106, OBP .377 to .334, slugging % .545 to .464, OPS .922 to .798. Pudge was better defensively, but the gap in hitting is too great for Pudge to overcome.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Comments
<< <i>I heard Ichiro and Edgar Martinez popped PEDs like they were candy.
Not my rules but it sure is an easy game to play. >>
So there was a huge culture of known PED users in Seattle? What's the matter, stownie, you upset that your martyr is being linked to PED use? When you do it to other players its fine, but when its your golden goose you get upset?
Houston was an epicenter of PED use. I'll say it again: Caminiti (self professed PED user and abuser), Petite (again, admitted to using), Clemens (was likely the ring leader). Then when Clemens arrives in Houston in 2004, Biggio, at age THIRTY AGE, hits a career high in HR. The next year, goes even higher. And we're not supposed to link the two?
<< <i>
Then the topper! You have the nerve to bring 'hit totals' into the Ichiro portion of the argument. Forget the fact that hit totals is probably one of the most inaccurate forms of measurement...but the fact that you completely scoffed at that point in the Biggio/McGwire debate just shows that you change stances based on what props up your hero or not. When it came to Ichiro, you have always bashed the HR, saying it was overrated...now you do the opposite. >>
I bring up hit totals because it's the one number that Biggio is likely to be enshrined on. If he doesn't hang around for those three extra years, taking who knows what (as this time just happened to coincide with Clemens arriving in Houston, but let's ignore that for now), he doesn't get to 3000 hits and NOBODY, I mean NOBODY is pushing for his Hall candidacy. If he doesn't hit that plateau, you and I both know he doesn't even get 5% of the vote his first year and he's dropped from the ballot.
Come on man, just admit you screwed up, you didn't know, you made a huge leap in logic on that lack of knowledge, and you blew it.
As far as comparing him to middle infielders, that's not how this game works. We don't vote in the best at every position in each era, and we certainly don't take five year runs of above average production in an era in which pitching was down and offense was way up.
To summarize my above post:
WAR................the Offensive portion is not as accurate as the two measurements below, and the defenisve/positional adjustment has error problems(but there does need to be some position allowance).
BIggio 64.9
McGwire 62
Ichiro 58.5
Win Probability Added(play by play data)
McGwire 53
Biggio 31.5
Ichiro 15
Run Expectancy Created(play by play data)
McGwire 578
Biggio 372
Ichiro 179
Career OPS+
McGwire 163
Biggio 112
Ichiro 111
Bill James Career Win Shares
Biggio 411
McGwire 342
Ichiro 300(I estimated his last couple of years, so this isn't exact)
The two comprehenisve(offense, defense, position adjustment) WAR and Bill James Winshares, have Biggio ahead of McGwire and Ichiro. If Biggio is easily replaced, that makes Ichiro super easy to replace.
The two most accurate offensive measures (WPA and Run Expectancy) have McGwire ahead of Biggio, and Biggio well ahead of Ichiro. This is the MOST accurate of the value they gave their teams in runs and wins.
The reality is, there is no argument to put Ichiro ahead of Biggio, none. Biggio and McGwire are interesting arguments. Clearly McGwire was the better offensive player. It then becomes a matter of the positional adjustment which is debatable.
However, any argument against the positional adjustment to Biggio, just absolutely KILLS Ichiro, because OF is not as high an adjustment as 2B...and Biggio already kills Ichiro offensively.
<< <i>Let's conveniently ignore the fact that Ichiro lost 7 years in his prime to his time in Japan. He didn't get to start in the bigs until 27 and his immediate impact shows he was big league ready. Who knows how much production he lost out on, but it's not difficult to see that there are a ton of numbers missing. >>
We went over that before. You are assuming he would be an above average starter at age 20?? Really? A corner outfielder in the minor leagues with no power, probably doesn't even break into the bigs until age 23-24. Then he takes his growing pains.
In a logical examination of what he missed, there is NO WAY he makes up the ground in the two key offensive measrurements. HEck, even if you doubled his prime years, he STILL doesn't make it up.
<< <i>
We went over that before. You are assuming he would be an above average starter at age 20?? Really? A corner outfielder in the minor leagues with no power, probably doesn't even break into the bigs until age 23-24. Then he takes his growing pains. >>
You're also assuming (a) I said he'd be above average at 20 (I didn't say that) and (b) it would take him three years to break in? Come on man, his skill set was evident from the beginning in Japan, and despite the perception, there isn't the massive drop off in talent as assumed. He'd have been an every day starter much younger than 27.
<< <i>In a logical examination of what he missed, there is NO WAY he makes up the ground in the two key offensive measrurements. HEck, even if you doubled his prime years, he STILL doesn't make it up. >>
He'd likely be well on his way to 4,000 hits if he'd played his entire career in MLB. That being said, we're talking about Biggio.
Answer this honestly: if he doesn't get to 3000 hits, does Biggio even make it past the first year of balloting?
<< <i>Ax, you have to look objectively. >>
I wish you the best of luck with that one. In a perfect world, he'd incorporate some objectivity. But it's not about that with him. It's about finding a reason to dislike someone or something and running with it. Even if it means contradicting himself many times over within the same thread.
According to him, Biggio hung around three seasons too long. Also according to him, it's very curious that he was banging out home runs during those exact same seasons. In other words, his production tailed off and he should have been out of baseball. Oh, but the one aspect of his game that didn't tail off and actually improved? Couldn't have been accomplished legitimately.
It's because he played for the Astros that we're even having this "debate." 1985fan hates anything and everything Houston. If Craig Biggio had played for his favorite team for 20 years, he'd be stopping on a dime again.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
<< <i>
According to him, Biggio hung around three seasons too long. Also according to him, it's very curious that he was banging out home runs during those exact same seasons. In other words, his production tailed off and he should have been out of baseball. Oh, but the one aspect of his game that didn't tail off and actually improved? Couldn't have been accomplished legitimately. >>
Right, because 38 year old guys just start hitting home runs at career peaks 'legitimately'. Oh, and they do it as one of the biggest names in the PED era arrives on the scene. And you want to hit at me and my objectivity?
<< <i>It's because he played for the Astros that we're even having this "debate." 1985fan hates anything and everything Houston. If Craig Biggio had played for his favorite team for 20 years, he'd be stopping on a dime again. >>
No, it's because I want my hall of fame to incorporate the very best players, not guys like Biggio. I want McGwire, I want Bonds, I want Clemens, I want the best of the best players in the hall. I don't want it diluted further than it already has been.
<< <i>Awww, someone is really upset. I'm positive Ichiro has some illegal drugs that will make him feel better.
Yeah, you're the someone that is really upset. Hilarious. Your golden goose Biggio getting (righfully) suspected of PED use has really made you mad. Made you so mad you had to log in both your IDs to reply.
Biggio - likely PED user who extended his career to achieve 3000 hits. While McGwire's numbers merit induction with PED use, even by using Biggio still isn't worthy.
<< <i>I wish you the best of luck with that one. In a perfect world, he'd incorporate some objectivity. But it's not about that with him. It's about finding a reason to dislike someone or something and running with it. Even if it means contradicting himself many times over within the same thread. >>
This is the answer. If you guys who like a good debate can't see how he goes about it, or don't care, that's fine.
I made the decision not to waste my time arguing with him.
My suggestion is to ignore him as soon as he starts getting stupid (or before), that's usually pretty quickly. He does not have the ability, intelligence or just plain common sense to EVER admit he is in error about ANYTHING.
Have fun!
In '93 he hit 21. In '95 he hit 22. In '97 he hit 22. In '98 he hit 20. All at the Astrodome.
The Astros started playing at Enron/Minute Maid in 2000.
If he hits one 330 feet to left field in the cavernous Astrodome, it's caught on the track. If he hits that same ball in Enron/Minute Maid, it's in the Crawford Boxes.
So taking that into account, let's use our noggins and give him credit for an extra handful of dingers to put your latest and greatest notion to bed.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
<< <i>Dude, you're acting like he pulled a Brady Anderson out of nowhere. His last four seasons he hit 24, 26, 21, and 10, respectively. >>
In the four years leading up to that career high of 24 and 26?
8, (!!!), 20, 15, 15. He went from back to back years of 15 at age 38 up to 24. All in a year when Clemens arrived in town, and we're just supposed to say 'eh, it happens!'
<< <i>In '93 he hit 21. In '95 he hit 22. In '97 he hit 22. In '98 he hit 20. All at the Astrodome. >>
In the prime of his career. At ages 27, 29, 30. The prime of his career (as has been explained over and over in this thread).
<< <i>The Astros started playing at Enron/Minute Maid in 2000.
If he hits one 330 feet to left field in the cavernous Astrodome, it's caught on the track. If he hits that same ball in Enron/Minute Maid, it's in the Crawford Boxes.
So taking that into account, let's use our noggins and give him credit for an extra handful of dingers to put your latest and greatest notion to bed. >>
The first year of playing in this new 'homer friendly' field, he hit EIGHT HOME RUNS. Eight! Then proceeded to hit 20, then 15, then 15. After that, Clemens hits town, and he throws up back to back years of 24 and 26 at ages 38 and 39? Blind, homer fans are so easily fooled.
<< <i>10.9 - McGwire >>
Close!
McGwire actually had a HR every 10.61 AB which is the best ratio of all time. You'll get 'em next time!
Tisk, tisk, tisk.
<< <i>Ichiro and Edgar both played with Alex, therefore they're PED abusers and drug mules.
Tisk, tisk, tisk. >>
It's adorable how personally you are taking this.
100 - Maddux
97.3 - Glavine
90.2 - F. Thomas
81.3 - Biggio
———————————
73.2 - Piazza
66.1 - Bagwell
61.6 - Jack (The Jack) Morris
57.1 - Raines
45.5 - Bonds
44.6 - Clemens
39.3 - Schilling
33.0 - Mussina
24.0 - Trammell
21.4 - E. Martinez
18.8 - L. Smith
14.3 - McGriff
13.4 - Kent
10.7 - L. Walker
10.7 - McGwire
8.0 - S. Sosa
7.1 - R. Palmeiro
———————————
4.5 - Mattingly
0.9 - P. Rose (Write-In)
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
<< <i>Updated: Jan.3 - 7:10 ~ 112 Full Ballots ~ (19.7% of vote ~ based on last year)
100 - Maddux
97.3 - Glavine
90.2 - F. Thomas
81.3 - Biggio
———————————
73.2 - Piazza
66.1 - Bagwell
61.6 - Jack (The Jack) Morris
57.1 - Raines
45.5 - Bonds
44.6 - Clemens
39.3 - Schilling
33.0 - Mussina
24.0 - Trammell
21.4 - E. Martinez
18.8 - L. Smith
14.3 - McGriff
13.4 - Kent
10.7 - L. Walker
10.7 - McGwire
8.0 - S. Sosa
7.1 - R. Palmeiro
———————————
4.5 - Mattingly
0.9 - P. Rose (Write-In) >>
.9 Rose, write in, LOL!
Mattingly not even at 5%.
Would love to see Piazza close the gap to get to 75%.
Glavine is getting stronger support than I expected. Over 97%, man that's Seaver territory. Both Maddux and Tommy G are right there.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>Updated: Jan.3 - 7:10 ~ 112 Full Ballots ~ (19.7% of vote ~ based on last year)
100 - Maddux
97.3 - Glavine
90.2 - F. Thomas
81.3 - Biggio
———————————
73.2 - Piazza
66.1 - Bagwell
61.6 - Jack (The Jack) Morris
57.1 - Raines
45.5 - Bonds
44.6 - Clemens
39.3 - Schilling
33.0 - Mussina
24.0 - Trammell
21.4 - E. Martinez
18.8 - L. Smith
14.3 - McGriff
13.4 - Kent
10.7 - L. Walker
10.7 - McGwire
8.0 - S. Sosa
7.1 - R. Palmeiro
———————————
4.5 - Mattingly
0.9 - P. Rose (Write-In) >>
.9 Rose, write in, LOL!
Mattingly not even at 5%.
Would love to see Piazza close the gap to get to 75%.
Glavine is getting stronger support than I expected. Over 97%, man that's Seaver territory. Both Maddux and Tommy G are right there. >>
So far, those top four are legit Hall of Famers. Piazza may get in this year. He should of been a 1st ballot HOFer. Looks like Bagwell is going to get in next year(he has the suspicion, but looks like he is overcoming it).
For the guys that got caught for roids, they got caught. Of course there are many more who did roids that weren't caught, but it is 100% certain for the guys who did get caught, and now they have to take their punishment. Their fault for doing them, and their fault for being dumb enough to get caught in the weak testing system that was in place. Maybe they should have been smarter like the guys who managed to do it without getting caught.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Updated: Jan.3 - 7:10 ~ 112 Full Ballots ~ (19.7% of vote ~ based on last year)
100 - Maddux
97.3 - Glavine
90.2 - F. Thomas
81.3 - Biggio
———————————
73.2 - Piazza
66.1 - Bagwell
61.6 - Jack (The Jack) Morris
57.1 - Raines
45.5 - Bonds
44.6 - Clemens
39.3 - Schilling
33.0 - Mussina
24.0 - Trammell
21.4 - E. Martinez
18.8 - L. Smith
14.3 - McGriff
13.4 - Kent
10.7 - L. Walker
10.7 - McGwire
8.0 - S. Sosa
7.1 - R. Palmeiro
———————————
4.5 - Mattingly
0.9 - P. Rose (Write-In) >>
.9 Rose, write in, LOL!
Mattingly not even at 5%.
Would love to see Piazza close the gap to get to 75%.
Glavine is getting stronger support than I expected. Over 97%, man that's Seaver territory. Both Maddux and Tommy G are right there. >>
So far, those top four are legit Hall of Famers. Piazza may get in this year. He should of been a 1st ballot HOFer. Looks like Bagwell is going to get in next year(he has the suspicion, but looks like he is overcoming it).
For the guys that got caught for roids, they got caught. Of course there are many more who did roids that weren't caught, but it is 100% certain for the guys who did get caught, and now they have to take their punishment. Their fault for doing them, and their fault for being dumb enough to get caught in the weak testing system that was in place. Maybe they should have been smarter like the guys who managed to do it without getting caught. >>
Skin,
What is your opinion on Raines getting in eventually? I believe he merits strong consideration and it looks like he is gaining support, too, over the years. IMO, he is an underrated player who probably would alreeady be in the Hall had he not spent the better part of his career playing in baseball Siberia.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
For the guys that got caught for roids, they got caught. Of course there are many more who did roids that weren't caught, but it is 100% certain for the guys who did get caught, and now they have to take their punishment. Their fault for doing them, and their fault for being dumb enough to get caught in the weak testing system that was in place. Maybe they should have been smarter like the guys who managed to do it without getting caught.
Skin,
What is your opinion on Raines getting in eventually? I believe he merits strong consideration and it looks like he is gaining support, too, over the years. IMO, he is an underrated player who probably would alreeady be in the Hall had he not spent the better part of his career playing in baseball Siberia. >>
I think Raines certainly merits the HOF.
I don't think he gets in next year because Unit, Pedro, and Smoltz are new entries...plus how the strong holdover candidates unfold(Piazza, Bagwell, Schilling, Mussina). Smoltz won't be a first ballot, but he is a strong candidate.
2016 has Griffey as the only lock, and then Hoffman as a candidate.
2017 has Vlad and Posada as candidates. Manny on the ballot, but umm no.
2018 has Chipper and Thome who are locks.
2019-2020 would mean players retiring this year and next. Would mean Rivera as a lock, possibly Jeter, Helton depending on when they retire...and not much else.
I say it is going to happen for Raines between 2016 and 2020 for certain. If I had to lay money, I would probably lay it on 2017, because there will be no first ballot HOF locks on that ballot. My second guess would be 2020.
100 - Maddux
97.6 - Glavine
91.1 - F. Thomas
81.3 - Biggio
———————————
71.5 - Piazza
64.2 - Bagwell
61.8 - Jack (The Jack) Morris
60.2 - Raines
41.5 - Bonds
40.7 - Clemens
39.0 - Schilling
31.7 - Mussina
25.2 - Trammell
24.4 - E. Martinez
22.8 - L. Smith
15.4 - Kent
13.0 - McGriff
11.4 - L. Walker
9.8 - McGwire
7.3 - S. Sosa
6.5 - R. Palmeiro
———————————
4.9 - Mattingly
0.8 - P. Rose (Write-In)
Don't know about you guys, but I'm really loving this class. Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, and Biggio will be receiving the call. I suspect Piazza will come up just short, but he'll be in next year. Glad to see Raines finally cross the 60% barrier. He should already be in, in my opinion, but at least the positive trend is continuing. He'll also walk through the doors in a few years.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
<< <i>
100 - Maddux
97.6 - Glavine
91.1 - F. Thomas
These are the only three above the threshold who you watched playing and said 'yep, that's a hall of famer right there.' Biggio put up a nice career, and gee whiz he was such a nice guy, and he stayed with one team his whole career! But you don't reward that with a pass to the hall. But in this age of 'we can't let steroid users in!' the voters feel compelled to let a nice guy in, which will be all the more ironic when his obvious PED use comes to light.
81.3 - Biggio
———————————
71.5 - Piazza
If Piazza doesn't get elected, then it's obvious the hall voters have NO CLUE what they are doing. .922 lifetime OPS? 7 top 10 MVP finishes?
64.2 - Bagwell
61.8 - Jack (The Jack) Morris
60.2 - Raines
These guys all had nice careers, but sorry, you don't get in, Morris especially.
41.5 - Bonds
40.7 - Clemens
The self-professed moral police are keeping out two of the most dominant players of all time, and it's beyond pathetic. Put these guys in already and have a real hall of fame with the best players in history in, and let the plaque* tell the story.
39.0 - Schilling
31.7 - Mussina
Two above average pitchers. That's all, nothing to see here.
25.2 - Trammell
Nice career, but sorry, no HoF for nice career guys (unless you're Biggio).
24.4 - E. Martinez
One of the best hitters of all time being penalized for playing the position of DH. The position exists, writers, get over it already. You don't penalize a pitcher for not hitting, stop penalizing a DH for not playing in the field.
<< <i>9.8 - McGwire >>
Dont forget"
7.3 Sosa
6.5 Palmeiro
Both being rightfully slighted, as their stupid words at the Congress hearings are enough to convict them in the courts of morons and liars. Sosa somehow forgot to speak english, and Palmeiro just flat out lied. Two moronic liars, with classic moments that cemented their real place in history.
They did it themselves.
Arod, take note...you are the king of that court
<< <i>Dont forget"
7.3 Sosa >>
My fault, it was like Sosa suddenly forgot English when it was his turn to testify.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
<< <i>Biggio >>
I am in agreement with the author of that article on most points. I had mentioned the Alomar comparison in a previouis post in this same thread, and while I don't put Biggio on the level of Alomar, his prime, which essentially spanned the entire 1990s, was HOF calibre. Definitely stayed on a couple seasons too long, imo, but the fact that the majority of his career was spent at 2B and C, two very tough positions, also adds value to his resume, imo.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Biggio is quite frankly the worst hitter to ever accumulate 3000 hits and its possible even probable he did it while juicing >>
ROFLMAO. Brock is the worst hitter with 3000n+ hits. Also, Biggio played multiple key defensive positions.
<< <i>
<< <i>Biggio >>
I am in agreement with the author of that article on most points. I had mentioned the Alomar comparison in a previouis post in this same thread, and while I don't put Biggio on the level of Alomar, his prime, which essentially spanned the entire 1990s, was HOF calibre. Definitely stayed on a couple seasons too long, imo, but the fact that the majority of his career was spent at 2B and C, two very tough positions, also adds value to his resume, imo. >>
It pretty much encompassed my thoughts as well. The comparison to Alomar is incontrovertible.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Edgar is 21st all time in OBP, with a career OBP of 418. 68 career WAR while Biggio was at 65. Edgar .933 career OPS, good for 34th all time. Plain and simple, Edgar was one of the very best hitters of all time, but because some voters still to this day dislike the DH position, decades after it's been established, he's not in contention for the hall, which proves just how ludicrous the entire hall voting process is.
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
<< <i>Back to the original question, when is the vote announced? >>
Wedensday @ about 9 am.
Maddux 100% (first player ever)
Glavine 95%
Thomas 87%
Biggio 80%
No one else makes it this year, though a few are close. Besides the steroid guys who are all time greats, I would like to see Tim Raines climb higher in the percentage, and eventually get in. An underrated player, and in my opinion, a HOFer.
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
<< <i>Thank you. My predictions are:
Maddux 100% (first player ever)
Glavine 95%
Thomas 87%
Biggio 80%
No one else makes it this year, though a few are close. Besides the steroid guys who are all time greats, I would like to see Tim Raines climb higher in the percentage, and eventually get in. An underrated player, and in my opinion, a HOFer. >>
Piazza has a legitimate shot also as he is in low 70s % wise right now and most of the early votes are not from metropolitan NY area.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Updated: Jan.6 - 4:20 ~ 140 Full Ballots
~ (24.6% of vote ~ based on last year)
100% - Maddux
97.1 - Glavine
92.1 - F. Thomas
80.7 - Biggio
———————————
72.1 - Piazza
64.3 - Bagwell
60.0 - Jack (The Jack) Morris
59.3 - Raines
42.1 - Bonds
41.4 - Clemens
40.0 - Schilling
31.4 - Mussina
25.0 - E. Martinez
24.3 - Trammell
24.3 - L. Smith
15.0 - Kent
13.6 - McGriff
11.7 - L. Walker
9.3 - McGwire
7.9 - S. Sosa
5.7 - R. Palmeiro
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
But now it's already 2014, I'm nearing 34 years old (March 22) and most chilling of all...the FUTURE is next year (as the second Back to the Future movie defines it)!
Way to make someone feel really old TC...
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
<< <i>Piazza not making it in while Biggio looks to be on his way? Pathetic. And baseball fans wonder why more and more people are running away from the sport? Nonsense like this being allowed to happen certainly isn't helping the sport. >>
I don't get it either; wasn't Piazza the second best catcher of the 90s (sorry Piazza fans but he's got NOTHING on Ivan's rifle arm, plus Pudge II could hit just as well if not better and was a much better fielder)? I'd think he'd make first ballot just as easily as Big Hurt and Mad Dog. I wouldn't count on Maddux making 100% though...I mean if Ryan, Ripken, or even MAYS couldn't do it, well...
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
<< <i>
<< <i>Piazza not making it in while Biggio looks to be on his way? Pathetic. And baseball fans wonder why more and more people are running away from the sport? Nonsense like this being allowed to happen certainly isn't helping the sport. >>
I don't get it either; wasn't Piazza the second best catcher of the 90s (sorry Piazza fans but he's got NOTHING on Ivan's rifle arm, plus Pudge II could hit just as well if not better and was a much better fielder)? I'd think he'd make first ballot just as easily as Big Hurt and Mad Dog. I wouldn't count on Maddux making 100% though...I mean if Ryan, Ripken, or even MAYS couldn't do it, well... >>
Piazza was a far better hitter than Pudge...career OPS+ 143 to 106, OBP .377 to .334, slugging % .545 to .464, OPS .922 to .798. Pudge was better defensively, but the gap in hitting is too great for Pudge to overcome.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
<< <i>Maddux has been left off a ballot, so no 100% for him... >>
Just read the guy who left him off did so because he won't vote for any players in the steroid era. Idiotic and further proof the hall is worthless.