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Why are there no MS 67+ (Plus) Peace Dollars? - UPDATE
BryceM
Posts: 11,737 ✭✭✭✭✭
If you are familiar with the Peace dollar series you know that there are two MS68 coins, both common Philly dates. There are a total of 207 PCGS MS67 Peace Dollars (minus crackouts), mostly made up of the 1922, 1923, 1924, and 1925 Philly issues, yet there are no coins at this level which have yet received a plus grade. Surely somewhere there are some that should be in the top 10-15% for grade. Do you think our hosts have made a conscious decision to aviod this grade, or is it something else?
In the 1926-P issue, there are 186 MS66 coins, 2 MS66+ coins, and none higher.
In the 1935-P issue, there are 182 MS66 coins, 4 MS66+ coins, and none higher.
In Morgans, there are 9 MS69 coins with no 69+ coins. There are 5 MS68 DMPLs with no MS68+DMPL coins, 455 MS68 coins with 18 MS68+ coins, and 25 MS68PL coins with 1 MS68+PL.
In the 1926-P issue, there are 186 MS66 coins, 2 MS66+ coins, and none higher.
In the 1935-P issue, there are 182 MS66 coins, 4 MS66+ coins, and none higher.
In Morgans, there are 9 MS69 coins with no 69+ coins. There are 5 MS68 DMPLs with no MS68+DMPL coins, 455 MS68 coins with 18 MS68+ coins, and 25 MS68PL coins with 1 MS68+PL.
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<< <i>In Morgans, there are 9 MS69 coins with no 69+ coins. >>
As a side note, I do not believe that PCGS will use a plus at the 69 grade.
Perhaps people can't justify re-submitting just for a shot at an upgrade. It is a gamble, and submission costs are higher than ever.
OTOH, the fact that only two 68's exist suggests that very high grades like 67+ are elusive.
Lance.
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0 of 207 MS67 Peace dollars have. At 4%, there should be 8 coins at MS67+.
That there isn't a single one is slightly interesting. Yes, Ultra high Peace dollars are tough, but I'd argue Ultra high grade Morgans are just as tough. PCGS graded 520,000 Peace dollars to find two top pops (MS68), but 2.7 million Morgans to find 9 top pops.
Corrected for clarity.
Morgans Graded: MS-67 - 7998
MS-67+ - 355
MS-68 - 449
MS-68+ - 17
MS-69 - 8
Peace Dollars Graded: MS-67 - 207
MS-68 - 2
And that is not counting PL and DMPL Morgans either. Ultra high grade Peace Dollars are much tougher.
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<< <i>19 of 485 MS68 Morgans have earned a plus. That's 3.92%
0 of 207 MS67 Peace dollars have. At 4%, there should be 8 coins at MS67+. >>
I am not certain that there is a hard and fast rule that says 4 percent of MS67 coins will be designated a Plus grade. Maybe I am wrong.
Isn't a top pop Morgan (which happens to be an MS69 - 9/2.5 million) just as rare as a top pop Peace dollar (which happens to be an MS68 - 2/0.5 million)?
Aren't there plenty of plus grade Morgans a half-grade down from the top-pop Morgans?
A half-grade down from the top-pop Peace Dollars there are no plusses, despite a population of 207 MS67 coins.
That's all I'm saying. Obviously there is no rule that there should be 4% of them. It just seems odd to me that there isn't a single one.
<< <i>OK. I give up. Obviously everyone is taking what I'm saying far too literally.
Isn't a top pop Morgan (which happens to be an MS69 - 9/2.5 million) just as rare as a top pop Peace dollar (which happens to be an MS68 - 2/0.5 million)?
Aren't there plenty of plus grade Morgans a half-grade down from the top-pop Morgans?
A half-grade down from the top-pop Peace Dollars there are no plusses, despite a population of 207 MS67 coins.
That's all I'm saying. Obviously there is no rule that there should be 4% of them. It just seems odd to me that there isn't a single one. >>
Bryce, I hear you brother, and agree 100%.
Question: What is the price spread between a 68 and 68+ common date Morgan?
Common date 67 Peace are 4K - 6K, a 67+ Peace would probably bring 15K in auction.
Because of the low Quality of manufacturing and baggy survival rates, PCGS makes it almost impossible to get a 67. I am convinced most 67 were not graded recently as the modern standards have tightened on the series which coincides with the advent of plus grades. Meaning yesterday's 67 are many of today's 66+s. esp ATS
Also factor in a little politics; You want to see a 67+ made have someone forfeit thousands of dollars and submit a handful of NGC 68s at cross at any.
Morgans: 2,800,00 were graded (almost 6x as many)
Peace$: 209 are higher than MS66.
Morgans: 12,000 are higher than MS66.
Peace$: 47,000 are MS65 or above
Morgans: 430,000 are MS65 or above
Peace$: 2 are MS68 or above
Morgans: 500 are MS68 or above
High grade Peace dollars are obviously tougher.
Does this explain zero 67+ Peace$? Not entirely. But close enough.
Lance.
This thread would have been better off if I'd dropped the comparison to Morgans and simply asked "Why no 67+ peace dollars?" Everyone seems to be getting lost in the comparison when they're really not comparable.
create a manufactured "pop 1" rarity. I see some dealers taking stuff like this literally stating this is the only 66+ and there are half a dozen MS67's.....hence it should be worth nearly as much as the "commoner" MS67's. In
essence, a MS67+ will probably compare well to low end MS68's.
<< <i>Too risky? And by that I mean, they don't want their coin to downgrade... Although with the new "reconsideration" service, that isn't really an issue.
Perhaps people can't justify re-submitting just for a shot at an upgrade. It is a gamble, and submission costs are higher than ever. >>
1) To my knowledge there is no risk in a regrade, just cost.
2) The price differentlal for the grade jump is orders of magnitude greater than the cost of the regrade.
<< <i>How many of those 207 coins were submitted since PCGS started the plus grading? >>
That's what I'm wondering...
<< <i>
<< <i>How many of those 207 coins were submitted since PCGS started the plus grading? >>
That's what I'm wondering... >>
Obviously only PCGS knows the answer to that, but I looked at the Heritage archives for all the MS67 Peace Dollars sold since June 2012. There have been 14 of them. 8 of the 14 were in the pronged edge-view slabs which were obviously graded (or perhaps reholdered) since the onset of plus grading. One was an OGH and 5 other coins were in holders that might have been before the onset of plus grades. For what it's worth, 9 of the 14 had green stickers.
Now I looked at the Morgan and thought that it was undergraded and had a 50/50 chance at being a 64. I also thought the Peace was undergraded and had maybe a 75% chance of going to 65. When I got the results back I was scratching my head. The Peace was still a 64....but the Morgan was now a 65. I never would have pegged it at a 65. Similarly, my previous submission to get some NGC coins I had moved to PCGS plastic generated similar results. My Peace dollar crossed at grade, but both of my Morgans went from 66's to 66+. In the 'quality for the grade' concept I thought all three were in similar positions.
So from my experience the distance travelled between a whole number grade and the next grade, or the plus in between, for Peace dollars increases as you move past 64 much more than it does for Morgans. That is why I see fewer of the plus grades on the Peace dollars when I think that there are examples out there that qualify. Why is this? No idea. And I am sure that there are many who disagree with me. This is only my opinion.
Of course this has happened as a direct result of this thread.
<< <i>I noticed Coinfacts now shows a 1925 P in 67+.
Of course this has happened as a direct result of this thread.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>Too risky? And by that I mean, they don't want their coin to downgrade... Although with the new "reconsideration" service, that isn't really an issue.
Perhaps people can't justify re-submitting just for a shot at an upgrade. It is a gamble, and submission costs are higher than ever. >>
If your trying to get a + on an MS-67 Peace dollar, the 50 bucks does not even cross your mind!
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
<< <i>Oh, the irony if the 67+ were a crackout attempt of an existing 68. >>
Anyone that cracks one of the two extant 68 peace dollars has a screw loose.
<< <i>I noticed Coinfacts now shows a 1925 P in 67+. >>
>>
I have never submitted any of my Peace Dollars, but........now that there is a new lottery in town I've got four that are going in early next week. Maybe PCGS is starting to level the playing field?
Is NGC easier on Peace $$? Maybe I'll submit to NCG and then try to cross 'em.
OINK
<< <i>
<< <i>Oh, the irony if the 67+ were a crackout attempt of an existing 68. >>
Anyone that cracks one of the two extant 68 peace dollars has a screw loose. >>
Yeah, and nobody in this hobby has any screws loose.
Homework for the weekend is to find this coin in its previous holder on Heritage.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
<< <i>I'd like to see a MS69 morgan.
I've seen two in PCGS holders; I'm disappointed to say that neither impressed me.
<< <i><<Exactly. A 67 is a $6-7k coin. A 68 is a $70-90k coin. Getting the first 67+ is like winning the lottery. BTW, the new 67+ coin is the new plate coin in CoinFacts. It looks pretty nice. Not in a registry. Wonder whose it is.....
>>
I have never submitted any of my Peace Dollars, but........now that there is a new lottery in town I've got four that are going in early next week. Maybe PCGS is starting to level the playing field?
Is NGC easier on Peace $$? Maybe I'll submit to NCG and then try to cross 'em.
OINK >>
I crossed an NCG 1922 Peace dollar at 67. But that was against long odds.
Save your money. An NGC 67 is not going to persuade PCGS.
Lance.