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Misrepresented Ebay Purchase returned
YQQ
Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
Lets assume you come across a Canadian coin on ebay and do your best to examine the average, better than others, images posted.
The seller has a good reputation and does coins only, so he knows coins, grades and possible issues with coins.
You ponder to bid, as you really like this coin. It trends at approximately $ 700 and to get it hopefully under 400 would be a bargain.
It looks ok in your opinion and you are a honest prospective buyer / bidder. To play it on the safe side, you ask the seller for better pictures.
Seller sends you the size reduced original jpeg images, just a bit larger than they are on the listing.
Seller points out, that these are the only pix he has and also points out his liberal return policy of 14 days from the time you receive the item, buyer to pay for return shipping.
Seller seems to be honest and has excellent feedback. Ok, you go and bid and you win the auction at $ 350 plus $ 15 for shipping tracked.
You pay immediately via Paypal to be covered by PP insurance.
Buyer gives you POS feedback as fast payer and ships the coin via Express mail. You are a happy camper….. until the coin arrives and you examine the coin.
It is the coin in the pictures, but it looks different because of the way it was purposely or hastily photographed.
Some of the dings, nicks and issues, and perhaps a old cleaning / dipping are not visible on the images as Cameras can be manipulated with angles and lighting NOT to show these problems (relative easy to do).
However, It is still a very nice coin, with its previously unknown faults.
You now start to wonder WHY the seller did not declare these faults, as You would have never bid knowing about the faults.
You came to the conclusion that the seller must have known that the coin has serious issues and you ask yourself why he did not mention these.
The seller, without describing its invisible faults grossly and purposely misrepresented this coin.
You are now upset as It is not what you saw in the posted images and what you approximately expected.
You decide to contact the seller to tell him what you now know, and to let him know you will send the coin back for a full refund. You gave him your reasons.
Ok, he writes back, just send the coin back and I will refund you the purchase cost as soon as I have received it back. I will always honor my return policy.
b]Here lies the crutch!!! You paid for the coin. IT is now your property![b
He grossly and purposely misrepresented the coin by not declaring the invisible problems! NOW, you the buyer are out of money because of him…..you would have never bid, had you been aware…
And he now wants you to send YOUR coin back on your dime so he can give you your money back which he should never have on the first place. The coin is now your property and you should trust such a seller because he said so by asking for the coin back .
Again in short:
You buy and pay for the item
You pay for shipping
Item arrives and is now YOUR property, paid for, you have title to it.
And because of the sellers direct misrepresentation of the coin, You are now asked to ship your property back at your risk and pay for shipping it back.
And all that for getting your purchase price back.
Questions:
Should the seller in a case like this have to buy the item back from you and pay all expenses associated with it? (you have $$ before shipping back)
Or
Should a buyer just cinch and do it away as a bad experience and be happy the loss is not greater?
Fellows, this is happening many times every day on the bay…. Think about it..
This scenario can even get a bit more complicated with buyer–seller being in 2 different countries.
Here is, for example, what would happen in the EU with online sales or catalogue sales where the item can not be physically inspected by a buyer. I am sure you have seen the rules on some European sellers conditions:
If the item is valued at Euro 40 or more, any buyer has the legal right to return any item for any reason within 30 days, in unused condition, to the seller. The seller must reimburse all costs associated with the sale to hold a buyer harmless. If a buyer decides to return an item he must first notify the seller within the legal return period via a recognized mode, like fax, letter, email etc.
enough rambling for today
Go ahead and tell me whatever...
it is soon a new year, a new start and I am cleaning out old spider webs....
H
Today is the first day of the rest of my life
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Comments
The seller should pay for your return shipping charges because the coin was misrepresented.
An honest and reliable seller would offer to pay for your shipping without you even asking for it.
With the average seller on Ebay, you would probably have to fight tooth and nail to get your return shipping paid for.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
the seller should refund the full price you paid including shipping/ins. Buyer
should pay return shipping. Keeps the tire kickers away and shares the cost
of the non sale.
If it was purposely done then I consider it close to fraud and it should cost you zero .
<< <i>You sound like a someone who is hard to please. >>
Unfortunately, I agree.
eBay and PayPal rules stipulate that as general practice, the buyer always pays return shipping. Anything beyond that depends on the largesse of the individual seller. The seller is only obligated to refund you what you originally paid, including original shipping costs... not your return shipping.
That said, I have had sellers refund my shipping both ways, and as a seller I have done the same, depending on the situation. However, that is not required, just a nicety.
Much of it depends on the manner in which the buyer broaches the subject with the seller. If it is confrontational or accusatory, all bets are off. Based on what has been communicated here, who knows how things were actually communicated.
Also, OP seems to be making the assumption that the motive was to deceive, rather than allowing the possibility for a mistake. We don't know the actual facts here, and if a buyer came at me with all guns blazing like he appears to be, I might very well (1) block him, and (2) tell him to go pound sand... regardless of the possibility of negative feedback.
As a buyer, if you feel the item is SNAD, you have every right to REQUEST that your return shipping costs be covered, but (1) don't be surprised if that request is denied, and (2) requesting it before the fact is NOT right. In my book nothing gets refunded before the item is received back by the seller. There are far too many scammers out there to ever refund anything before the fact, unless it is someone you have an existing relationship/track record with.
EDIT: Rereading the OP, the seller said up front prior to the sale taking place that return costs would be at the expense of the buyer. Nothing at all to complain about other than for the sake of complaining.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
Sorry, but with all the fraudsters in the world there is no way any business could safely return the money before the item is returned, that's just a ridiculous proposition. Just return the coin, get your refund and be done with it.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
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U.S. Revenue Stamps
I suppose the other option is to look at more certified coins
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I suppose the other option is to look at more certified coins >>
... with the admonition to not rely solely on the number printed on the holder (just as relying on a grade given in an eBay title is not a good idea). Regardless of grading company, there are plenty of misgraded and misattributed coins in slabs out there. NGC, ANACS, ICCS, PCGS, none of them are immune to mistakes.
The following goes for eBay, mainstream auctions, and buying in person: One should never rely on information from a seller or a third-party grader. Know in your own right, to your own satisfaction, whether the coin is graded and/or priced fairly. Your only advocate is yourself and your knowledge and experience.
This may sound like I'm pontificating, but based on the OP's previous posts, I get the feeling that he is relying on sellers giving him accurate information, when that is a completely false premise which leaves him open to being taken advantage of and/or making poor buying decisions. As the buyer, YOU have to make the determination whether the assigned grade is accurate. One seller's XF is another seller's AU or VF, and each country's grading standards differ. Taking seller-given and TPG-given grades out of the equation, the only grade that matters is what YOU, the buyer, assign to it.
If you don't know or can't tell what it ACTUALLY grades with some degree of certainty, then you should not be buying it.
At the very least, if you know going in that it is somewhat of a gamble, then you should accept that you may have out-of-pocket return costs associated with the transaction, and then it comes down to whether you are willing to risk that downside against possibly getting a winner. It's called making an informed decision.
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U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>You ponder to bid, as you really like this coin. It trends at approximately $ 700... Ok, you go and bid and you win the auction at $ 350 plus $ 15 for shipping tracked. >>
You won a coin that you really like for half of current trends? You might want to consider that there's a reason nobody else bid higher, and maybe think about restricting your buying to already graded coins. JMO.
It was interesting how many of you immediately got “personal”, jumped to conclusions, assumed things, and related this post to the 1858, when it is VERY clear that it has nothing to do with it.
and I mean nothing. !!!! I stated clearly it is a scenario (actually, something similar happened to someone I know). Be happy it did not happen to you.
Most of you put the onus here on the buyer, (not necessarily being me, it could be anybody) and completely nearly fully absolve the seller from responsibility. Even side with the seller without thinking by blaming the buyer.
Did you actually seriously consider that YOU might be, or have been, that buyer at some time in the past and that you were perhaps confronted to deal with a situation similar??
Really guys, I thought you were smarter and had more respect then to get personal.
If it was not clear enough, I apologize and I shall be more direct in future. (maybe I do not express myself properly because English is not my first language)
When you read this post, be honest, u had the other post very fresh in your memory and you "linked" THE 2.
It did not cross your mind to disassociate yourself from the other post and look at this scenario in a new light.
It is in fact, a completely different scenario.
The real issues and questions were not addressed by you, but there were tons of assumption, accusing , know it better and bashing, even though the scenario was clearly stated. Just wonder what you would write here if such a thing had happened to you.
Most of you seem not to care that a dishonest seller who just tried to take you knowingly for a ride, on purpose, might also be a “dishonest money returner”.
Please remember, a buyer is buying property which a seller owns. This buyer must pay before obtaining title and receiving the sellers property.
In fact you now own this coin and is your property. However, you should now trust this same seller with your property, considering that same seller just was dishonest in the transaction by omitting material facts?
Come on , give your head a shake. Feebay regs one way or another!
When was the last time they helped YOU as a seller, or as a buyer?
Their regs are designed only to suit Feebay and allow crooks to operate and defraud others because everyone is counting “on ebay and Paypal regulations” to help. They do not.
Most of you have totally ignored the fact that Commerce laws supersede ebay regulations.
Fraud is Fraud, shake it any way you want.
So, now you Feebay supporters, look at this, and again all of this has nothing to do with the 1858, or with me for that matter. And again, please, NO personal attacks etc. :
Now YOU ship your coin back to the seller because Feebay and Paypal regs say You have to do so, even though you have just been “chipped” and it is legally your coin!
You have a certificate from the post office that it was received because it was tracked and the post office noted that it was delivered.
However, The “ crook” or the previous seller make a statement he did not receive it! Oh, but it was delivered, I can proof it! And now the fun starts.
You as the shipper (or present owner)must now proof that the item was delivered to your (now buyer) or former owner.
Can you??? In fact NO, as all you have is a statement that it was delivered to the address. If you did ship it as “signature required”, someone else at that address signed for it! NOT the person you addressed it to. Yes, there is a signature. BUT NOT the right signature.
So fellows, what will you do now?
Give him negative feedback? Oh, sorry time for that has run out.. and Feebay and PP are off the hook!
And now has your coin and your money.
Have you ever received registered mail from a government, lets say the tax people? It does say : Personal identification required……
I rest my case..
Go ahead and bash me or do whatever..
And NO, I am not cranky, bitter, in a bad mood or anything like that. I am just realistic… and honest.
and i much dislike dishonest sellers.. or buyers!
Now, before you call me names etc….
All I ask you to think about it before you put pen to paper…
End of rant…
New Year is around the corner..
Have a great one..
H
you are right... the seller is an experienced seller..., so he know...
that is the whole issue.... dishonesty..and feebay supports it under the guise of being supportive and helpful.
in the 58 case, the seller agreed without too much fuzz to pay for both ways shipping. He knew and accepted responsibility.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
it is no secret at all.
yqqcoins
check it out. There is ONE only blemish. It is a seller who sold a hans Zoell booklet and I was the only bidder I think it was $ 29 or maybe 39. (spiked at $ 85) . So he was upset and wanted $ 15 for shipping with Canada Post for the little book as a F-class letter. Cost $ 1.24. weighs 50 grams and goes as letter mail.
so I suggested for him to check for the best price to ship at MY risk and pos feedback given by me before he would ship.I offerd him $ 4 to cover all his expenses. he came back with less for shipping. then he said i was unreasonable and demanding and deserve negative feedback for being unreasonable. Fortunately he was a seller.
check me out, be my guest.. anything else you wish to know.., just ask...
oh yes, the 1858 story was my buy. the 2nd NOT mine but I have intimate knowledge of it.
have Fun
H
That being said,
Let's change the scenario, say the coin trends $700 and looks like a nice example from the pics. You and 3 other bidders get into a war and bid it up to $1500. The coin arrives, and has hairlines that were not noticeable on the pics from a harsh cleaning. It's still the seller's fault and a refund is warranted. The amount the coin sells for is irrelevant. Just because a coin sells for a low amount does not mean the buyer "should have known better."
However, I will say, if you are spending $700 on a raw coin on eBay, you are playing with the big boys, and it's a dangerous game. Be prepared to occasionally get burned. Stick to certified coins if you are not prepared for that.
As far as a seller buying back a coin from you. A buyback is completely different than a return. Some sellers offer to buy back any coin they have sold in the past. They usually do this at a discounted price from what they sold for. A return is specifically tied to a sale and is expectant on receiving merchandise returned. Say you buy a shirt from a clothing store online. The shirt arrives and it is 2 sizes too big. You return it, and the store refunds you when they receive the merchandise back. The store is not "buying back your shirt," (you are not a shirt seller) they are refunding your money. They will not give you a refund before your merchandise arrives back. This is the nature of commerce, and is protected by law in the United States, and presumably elsewhere. The suggestion that a vendor pay you a full refund price before receiving his merchandise returned is preposterous.
<< <i>Another thing, if you are "selling" your coin back to the person who you purchased from, you now become a vendor as well. Which means you may be expected to offer a return policy! Also you are expected to report your sale as income on your tax return, collect and pay all applicable state and local sales taxes, and you may be required to register as a business owner with business license. Many countries require that you have business insurance as well. So if you want your money back before you return the item, be careful what you wish for! >>
Here in Canada, you can have annual sales of up to 30 thousand without registering as a 'business'.
Over this amount you have to charge our Canadian 'HST' tax.
Of course, selling annually under 30K, exempts you from charging HST tax but you still have to claim any amount as income.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Should the seller in a case like this have to buy the item back from you and pay all expenses associated with it? (you have $$ before shipping back)
Or Should a buyer just cinch and do it away as a bad experience and be happy the loss is not greater?
Personally I'd go for door number two, send it back and eat the shipping.
eBay is a Wild West environment, of this there is no doubt. That being said it offers both buried landmines and hidden opportunities. As a collector who lives thousands of miles from the nearest Canadian coin dealer I am willing to risk the mines as long as there is a return policy. If I wasn't willing to take the risk my collection would be considerably smaller than it is now. Anyhow, it has worked out well for me - I have made up the difference on the return shipping costs that I have had to bear on some items with other coins that turned out to be PQ+++ and that were acquired at bargain-basement prices....
or have sold similar graded coins for higher price. If they do I feel there is a reason this one is raw. Also I would
see if I could pay with paypal. My personal opinion is both e-bay and paypal protect the buyer more then the seller.
This is driving many sellers away. If you open a claim you will have 20 days to work it out with the seller. After that
I think you have up to 45 days to escalate it to a dispute and I think the money is frozen in the sellers account till
it is resolved. And if you properly document the return verifiable online you will get your money back. Even if you
sent a box of rocks back to the seller I believe paypal will side with you. This is why I think the seller is at much
more risk.
And if the coin is very expensive I think there are even escrow services for further safety. But if online transactions
are unsafe to you just stick to the brick and mortar shops and shows. I find both nice as you can talk and have
the opportunity to learn more and be exposed to other items.
I have had just over 1,000 transactions as buyer and seller and never had a problem with returns. This even includes
board member who asked to pay for a $2000 item over three months. He said I could hold the coin till after the third
payment. I sent the item after the first payment was received and he followed thru as he said.
Perhaps I have been lucky.
<< <i>but you still have to claim any amount as income.[/Q
You might be surprised how the income tax act is worded.
you would be correct if you are talking about any profit.
rainy day on Vancouver island, small ripple on the ocean out my window.
But, otherwise a real nice day..
reading your posts I come to the conclusion that most of you would be happy victims of a not so honest seller.
you would just simply give in to his dishonesty.
remember, the coin you just purchased was cleaned which YOU could not see on his reasonable images,
and which he did not declare although he , as a experienced seller and numismat, MUST have AND did know.
well, sure looks like you totally trust everyone, even a seller who just knowingly took you for a ride, and you part very easy with your money. Usually a sign of having plenty of it and not really needing it (lolololo).
And NO, Payapal or Ebay will not simply accept delivery of an item as proof if the recipient who claims not having received the shipment, asks to see his signature on the delivery document, or a reasonable electronic facsimile.
what you failed to see here is that we now have one more party involved in this issue. That party is called Canada Post ( or probably any other postal system). They did deliver to the address, BUT NOT TO THE PERSON it was addressed to. they did obtain a signature, but they failed to produce a Power of Attorney from the addressee for someone else to accept mail. Remember, it only said "signature required". Not addressee's signature required.
Now, I can see some of you saying what is the difference etc, etc, semantics etc...really??
I am sure it has happened to most of you that something was delivered to your home, but you were not home. A attempted delivery slip is left at the door with instructions on where to pick it up. It also clearly indicates that you must show your picture ID showing your name and Address when you pick it up.
why should it be different when an item is delivered to your door?
If the mail person does not know you, he will still ask you for ID, even at the address stated on the item.
get the point?
think about it..
have a great day
H
<< <i>I agree with the posters on the other board that you posted this >>
which other board are you referring to?
Bill, this post has NOTHING to do with the 1858 post, which is my own experience.
in the 1858 post we have serious HIDDEN and undeclared issues, NOT visible on the posted images.
You are going to continue to flog this until you get the answers you want to hear, REGARDLESS of people's feedback, aren't you?
Very well:
eBay and PayPal rules apply to everyone but you. You should get a full refund before returning the merchandise. Furthermore, any seller you deal with should be obligated to refund you TWICE what you paid for any item regardless of whether you return it or not. Actually, sellers should be required to send you merchandise on approval and then you can just decide how much to pay them, that is if you feel like paying at all. Your choice.
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U.S. Revenue Stamps
really nice of you getting so personal.
Thank You..
Obviously you can not be objective and stick to facts and the issue on hand.
is it perhaps because YOU do not recognize the actual issue ?
Remember, this is an open forum where Ideas and experiences etc are exchanged and discussed.
<< <i>And NO, Payapal or Ebay will not simply accept delivery of an item as proof if the recipient who claims not having received the shipment, asks to see his signature on the delivery document, or a reasonable electronic facsimile. >>
You are mistaken. You only need tracking number for your purchase. Over $750 requires sig. confirmation.
Here is a cut/paste from e-bay.
Do I need to send the item back to the seller?
Yes, if you opened an "item not as described" case for a purchase covered by eBay Buyer Protection. You'll also need to provide us with the shipping tracking number (with Signature Confirmation for items worth more than $750) to receive your refund through PayPal
i think you mean the 1858 coin...
there, the coin was cleaned and polished. That was NOT visible in the images. Hence a material defect known to the seller.
Please read again. I never complained about what I paid for. Had the coin NOT been cleaned and polished, NO problem. the idea of shipping back would not have been on the agenda at all.
it would have stayed where it is, at my home.
signature was required and was obtained, BUT it was NOT the persons signature to whom it was addressed. The actual recipient denied having received it which was in fact was true. someone else at the same address signed for it!
the Post person never asked to see ID!!!
Your guess is as good as mine or anyone's if there was a collusion or not. Fact is that now Canada Post is also involved as a "involved" party, even though they delivered to the address. But not as required to the addressee!
<< <i>Eagle, Perhaps a conversation with your accountant would clarify this:
<< <i>but you still have to claim any amount as income.[/Q
You might be surprised how the income tax act is worded.
you would be correct if you are talking about any profit. >>
YQQ...yes you are right.
Coin sold for $1000 as an example but cost you last year $600, then your income has to increase by 'net' $400.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Thank You for your kind observations....
I actually thought you were a nice, trustworthy person and that is why I had no problems posting my Ebay name at your request.
Now I know better, as getting personal in a public forum is not appreciated.
being objective and recognizing the real issue on hand, not just jumping to conclusions, is always a good sign.
Not recognizing an issue, but making negative comments is easy to do..
This is an open forum where problems, Ideas and experiences etc., are exchanged and discussed.
Nobody has to agree with anybody here. Anyone can simply ignore another's post.
Most posts are ok as long as respect and decency is maintained.
I am glad you vented your concerns, made your comments, and I thank you for that.
I wish you a happy new year, hopefully without any undeclared cleaned coins!
H
<< <i>Jersey Joe, you missed it!
signature was required and was obtained, BUT it was NOT the persons signature to whom it was addressed. The actual recipient denied having received it which was in fact was true. someone else at the same address signed for it!
the Post person never asked to see ID!!!
Your guess is as good as mine or anyone's if there was a collusion or not. Fact is that now Canada Post is also involved as a "involved" party, even though they delivered to the address. But not as required to the addressee! >>
Didn't miss it only pointed out that signature confirmation was not required for this return . Only tracking which you did provide.
Since signature confirmation was not required it doesn't matter who signed. The confirmation number shows it was received.
buying a coin unseen is risky at best cause you never can know what the coin looks like in person
Coins for sale at link below
https://photos.app.goo.gl/TyJbuBJf37WZ2KT19
My opinion is that there are mechanisms in place for a full refund of purchase price and if the buyer is not happy with the item that they then can utilize these mechanisms to receive a full refund of purchase price. This refund, however, should not include other expenses such as return shipping, time, effort or anything else. Each party loses some amount in a failed transaction and a very valuable lesson for the buyer is to find out how the seller reacts to an issue and what the coin in-hand looks like when compared to the coin image.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson