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recent experience of overgrading
YQQ
Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭✭✭
a few weeks back I purchased a 1858 20 cent piece , Canadian .
here is the link:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/121224956170?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_612wt_1125
the seller had this as his title:
<< <i>1858 Canada Silver Twenty Cents Coin. EF NICE GRADE >>
When I had coin in hand, it will not make VF20 for numerous reasons, one of them being cleaned and polished. He di dnot declare that in his description
This means he withheld important information which, if declared, I would have never bid.
I send the seller a note and asked him to refund shipping both ways because he purposely misrepresented the coin and withheld important information.
First he kicked up a fuss and pointed to the rest of his descriptions.
Canadian Commerce is very clear here. A descriptive tile is what a buyer has a right to rely on. He stated EF grade. NOT approximately, or "I would grade It as' etc...
I suggested he can send me a EF grade instead. He choose to refund the total incl. 2x shipping.
I have no idea how it would work in a Trans-Border transaction.
here is the link:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/121224956170?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_612wt_1125
the seller had this as his title:
<< <i>1858 Canada Silver Twenty Cents Coin. EF NICE GRADE >>
When I had coin in hand, it will not make VF20 for numerous reasons, one of them being cleaned and polished. He di dnot declare that in his description
This means he withheld important information which, if declared, I would have never bid.
I send the seller a note and asked him to refund shipping both ways because he purposely misrepresented the coin and withheld important information.
First he kicked up a fuss and pointed to the rest of his descriptions.
Canadian Commerce is very clear here. A descriptive tile is what a buyer has a right to rely on. He stated EF grade. NOT approximately, or "I would grade It as' etc...
I suggested he can send me a EF grade instead. He choose to refund the total incl. 2x shipping.
I have no idea how it would work in a Trans-Border transaction.
Today is the first day of the rest of my life
0
Comments
However, what I have to say is you're probably not going to like.
Just because a seller says 'EF', you and I both know this doesn't mean you're going to get an EF.
Also, the seller provides very accurate pictures which (to me) shows the hairlines (cleaning) very clearly.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, Eventhough the coin is quite a bit worse than what the seller represented it to be, it shouldn't have been a surprise to you, since you had the benefit of the accurate pictures.
I hope you resolve this matter.
Have a Merry Christmas and I look forward to your next post.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
The Aussies probably have the strictest grading of all nationalities I have dealt with. Canadians and Europeans are next,Then the US.
There are times we just have to have some disagreements.. the world would stop turning without…. And this and other forums would have to close….
My post, even though it appeared so, has actually very little to do with the coins grade. And still, it has. ( but why it has, think about it.. will chat abou the “why” another time)
But lets go along with that for now and perhaps the actual reason will come through. First, scans are not good, unless done at, lets say 2400 DPI or higher.
What you think to be hairlines are actually light scratches. Not hairlines caused by cleaning. Ok, SOME of these are visible on the images
what can not be seen is that the coin has been polished or "shined" up. it looks as it has this 'been in a pant pocket a long time' shine.
did I think it was a EF grade coin?
That is not relevant at the moment. Fact is, it was advertised as a EF grade. Hence it "should" come reasonably close to it, perhaps at least a VF 30.
But maybe I am out to lunch here and should just accept what the seller says????
However, to be a 40, the reverse, the ridges on the leafs have to be there. on most leafs they are not and are worn off. and the coins scratches will not allow a EF grade.
A experienced seller, which the seller is, should be honest enough NOT to try and fool someone inexperienced into thinking , well he is an honest seller and he says it is a EF, so it must be EF.
Ask yourself WHY he put EF in the title?? Not simply “a nice grade” or "it could be “EF IN MY OPINION”? NO he said it is a EF GRADE, when he knew it is NOT.
Ok, We all know, grading is subjective. Fine, but look at some of this sellers other titles. on many listings he leaves it wide open.....Why not on this one? ( because it is relative scarce coin and brings more $ as a EF)
My listings (whenever I have some) will never say IT IS a certain grade unless certified by a reputable TPG. What I would say is "a better grade coin" . AND, I would say something like this: please grade the coin yourself based on the very sharp and clear images. But I would never state a grade in the title, as that can have legal implications, as a buyer has a right to rely on it. it is different if you have an item in hand in a store etc.
the matter is resolved. The seller and I found a solution. the coin is on the way back and he is paying for shipping both ways. He will get pos. feedback from me.
BUT, a very general question for all of you: do you think it is right, should it be allowed, to state (not suggest) a grade unless it is that grade as a minimum and the seller will back it up?
I think we all know the answer to that question.
I did offer the seller the opportunity to replace the coin with a EF grade coin.
for sure, I am not looking for arguments. I am just following my personal believes and ethics.
...Now, can we unlock the antlers?
one day soon, I will open up a "old can of worms" which has been harboring within many honest buyers on feebay. But few, if any brought it up for whatever reason. I
It has some relationship to the above event , but not this seller, or for that matter any specific seller. It is a common problem and unfortunately silently accepted by most.
Can you guys guess what it might be?
Antlers unlocked??
FWIW, there are VERY few sellers of raw coins on ebay where I would take their word on the grade/condition of the piece over only what I am able to see with my own eyes in their pictures.
<< <i>Ok Eagle and others, here we lock "antlers" for a bit ok?
There are times we just have to have some disagreements.. the world would stop turning without…. And this and other forums would have to close….
My post, even though it appeared so, has actually very little to do with the coins grade. And still, it has. ( but why it has, think about it.. will chat abou the “why” another time)
But lets go along with that for now and perhaps the actual reason will come through. First, scans are not good, unless done at, lets say 2400 DPI or higher.
What you think to be hairlines are actually light scratches. Not hairlines caused by cleaning. Ok, SOME of these are visible on the images
what can not be seen is that the coin has been polished or "shined" up. it looks as it has this 'been in a pant pocket a long time' shine.
did I think it was a EF grade coin?
That is not relevant at the moment. Fact is, it was advertised as a EF grade. Hence it "should" come reasonably close to it, perhaps at least a VF 30.
But maybe I am out to lunch here and should just accept what the seller says????
However, to be a 40, the reverse, the ridges on the leafs have to be there. on most leafs they are not and are worn off. and the coins scratches will not allow a EF grade.
A experienced seller, which the seller is, should be honest enough NOT to try and fool someone inexperienced into thinking , well he is an honest seller and he says it is a EF, so it must be EF.
Ask yourself WHY he put EF in the title?? Not simply “a nice grade” or "it could be “EF IN MY OPINION”? NO he said it is a EF GRADE, when he knew it is NOT.
Ok, We all know, grading is subjective. Fine, but look at some of this sellers other titles. on many listings he leaves it wide open.....Why not on this one? ( because it is relative scarce coin and brings more $ as a EF)
My listings (whenever I have some) will never say IT IS a certain grade unless certified by a reputable TPG. What I would say is "a better grade coin" . AND, I would say something like this: please grade the coin yourself based on the very sharp and clear images. But I would never state a grade in the title, as that can have legal implications, as a buyer has a right to rely on it. it is different if you have an item in hand in a store etc.
the matter is resolved. The seller and I found a solution. the coin is on the way back and he is paying for shipping both ways. He will get pos. feedback from me.
BUT, a very general question for all of you: do you think it is right, should it be allowed, to state (not suggest) a grade unless it is that grade as a minimum and the seller will back it up?
I think we all know the answer to that question.
I did offer the seller the opportunity to replace the coin with a EF grade coin.
for sure, I am not looking for arguments. I am just following my personal believes and ethics.
...Now, can we unlock the antlers?
one day soon, I will open up a "old can of worms" which has been harboring within many honest buyers on feebay. But few, if any brought it up for whatever reason. I
It has some relationship to the above event , but not this seller, or for that matter any specific seller. It is a common problem and unfortunately silently accepted by most.
Can you guys guess what it might be?
Antlers unlocked?? >>
<< <i>LOL! I didn't look at the ebay link...just posted an experience I had. I now went and looked and would love to know how in the world from the pictures provided you would think that 20 center would even come close to XF!
<< <i>Ok Eagle and others, here we lock "antlers" for a bit ok?
There are times we just have to have some disagreements.. the world would stop turning without…. And this and other forums would have to close….
My post, even though it appeared so, has actually very little to do with the coins grade. And still, it has. ( but why it has, think about it.. will chat abou the “why” another time)
But lets go along with that for now and perhaps the actual reason will come through. First, scans are not good, unless done at, lets say 2400 DPI or higher.
What you think to be hairlines are actually light scratches. Not hairlines caused by cleaning. Ok, SOME of these are visible on the images
what can not be seen is that the coin has been polished or "shined" up. it looks as it has this 'been in a pant pocket a long time' shine.
did I think it was a EF grade coin?
That is not relevant at the moment. Fact is, it was advertised as a EF grade. Hence it "should" come reasonably close to it, perhaps at least a VF 30.
But maybe I am out to lunch here and should just accept what the seller says????
However, to be a 40, the reverse, the ridges on the leafs have to be there. on most leafs they are not and are worn off. and the coins scratches will not allow a EF grade.
A experienced seller, which the seller is, should be honest enough NOT to try and fool someone inexperienced into thinking , well he is an honest seller and he says it is a EF, so it must be EF.
Ask yourself WHY he put EF in the title?? Not simply “a nice grade” or "it could be “EF IN MY OPINION”? NO he said it is a EF GRADE, when he knew it is NOT.
Ok, We all know, grading is subjective. Fine, but look at some of this sellers other titles. on many listings he leaves it wide open.....Why not on this one? ( because it is relative scarce coin and brings more $ as a EF)
My listings (whenever I have some) will never say IT IS a certain grade unless certified by a reputable TPG. What I would say is "a better grade coin" . AND, I would say something like this: please grade the coin yourself based on the very sharp and clear images. But I would never state a grade in the title, as that can have legal implications, as a buyer has a right to rely on it. it is different if you have an item in hand in a store etc.
the matter is resolved. The seller and I found a solution. the coin is on the way back and he is paying for shipping both ways. He will get pos. feedback from me.
BUT, a very general question for all of you: do you think it is right, should it be allowed, to state (not suggest) a grade unless it is that grade as a minimum and the seller will back it up?
I think we all know the answer to that question.
I did offer the seller the opportunity to replace the coin with a EF grade coin.
for sure, I am not looking for arguments. I am just following my personal believes and ethics.
...Now, can we unlock the antlers?
one day soon, I will open up a "old can of worms" which has been harboring within many honest buyers on feebay. But few, if any brought it up for whatever reason. I
It has some relationship to the above event , but not this seller, or for that matter any specific seller. It is a common problem and unfortunately silently accepted by most.
Can you guys guess what it might be?
Antlers unlocked?? >>
>>
Where do I begin?
I agree with Amwldcoin....how in the world did you think that coin was an EF from the pics?
YQQ....if all it takes for you to buy a coin is a title that says 'EF' without examining the pictures very closely, then I say you're going to be disappointed many times.
YQQ....I respect your ethics and high standards that a seller should at the very least come close to the exact grade the coin actually is, but let's be 'real' here.
On Ebay, in a coin shop or at a coin show, when I purchase a RAW coin, I never, repeat NEVER rely on the grade of the coin on the holder. I examine the coin (or the picture of the coin, if on EBay) and grade the coin myself and then determine at what price I'm willing to pay for it.
To rely on the seller's grade of a raw coin to purchase a coin is just asking for BIG trouble.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Don't know where you saw or thought its EF!
Seller is a gem compared to the many kooks - he didn't oversell it or hype it anywhere close to what other idiots do on ebay.
Get over it and move on.
Learn from this event
Fellows, I am disappointed now. It looks like NONE of you actually read my last post AND gave it any thoughts, even though there were some hints.
Without exception you based your reply on the previous posts and what was said there (and to “read me the riot act”) . You all jumped immediately at the grading. Ok, your choice and you ALL must have money to burn.
BTW, this has absolutely nothing to do with the 48 dollars I had. I am not here to defend my opinions. NOT even my opinion about my original post here. I will try and make it simple by asking you a few questions. To honestly answer or not is really up to you.
Ok, here it goes:
I assume all of you have followed the link to the original posting on the bay AND you are familiar with the sellers listing? Yes, I hope ?
Then you must have seen a small note that the seller has a return policy ( which is very noble). Again Yes, I hope?
Then you must have also seen the terms of that return policy? Again Yes, I hope.
I know, just now you were all going back to look at it again… right?
And NOW, not so nice things about me are going through your mind, like what the …….. ..is his problem, it is very clear to me he is an idiot and way out to lunch…or even worse, much worse.
Right?? I would be surprised if not, and I am not holding it against you.
Oh yes, I could have just simply sent the coin back without explanation, or said: oh I do not like the coin etc.. etc.. and subject closed. After all, he offers a return policy.
As previously noted the seller is experienced and knows all the ins and outs. He knew that this is a problem coin and that important issues were not visible on his scans. Nor did he declare these issues, hoping to possible find an inexperienced buyer (this is just my opinion).
Ok lets assume I had sent the coin back without comment.
Money comes back, less shipping.
NOW Gents, Please tell me, that I am such an a…. for asking the seller, or any seller in similar circumstances to cover shipping both ways because the coin is NOT what he advertised and did not declare its defects.
Why should a buyer be out the money for shipping either way under these circumstances, it is only $ 15 each way!!!
Yes Gentlemen, the issue is knowingly misrepresenting an item.
AND, that is what you missed from the beginning because you were so set on grading (where the misrepresentation started to raise its ugly head.)! After all, it is only $30, right? (which a buyer here should not be OUT)
Pokerman, you may be right, but this was not about what is allowed and what not. If what you say is correct, then anyone could just simply buy a coin from anyone and return it…do I get this right?
A seller may perhaps use a numeric grade in the description body where he also puts his “oh, but’s” etc. . But to positively state a numeric grade in the title is a fact that a buyer is entitled to rely on and I am not sure if Feebay does allow that.
Dbl Eagle
Ok, EF, VF or whatever, Title still clearly says EF grade.
What I thought about the coins condition is / was not really relevant. You all jumped to the grading issue BECAUSE of my title of this post. You relied on it and believed that you would find a grading issue in the text. You actually did, but missed the underlying monetary consequences to the buyer, the much more serious issue of shipping cost when an item is purposely and knowingly misrepresented.
I agree, when you have coin in hand!! above does not apply in any form whatsoever. But this is NOT coin in hand. there are 4000Km between coin and hand. I further agree that images can tell a lot and one should carefully examine these. Please consider here that not every possible buyer has the ability or equipment to do so and that many buyers are not able to enlarge images. Many are stuck with what Feebay offers.
Mr. Potatoehead
Your reference to my 48 dollars at the time.
Again, I say this subject here is NOT a primary matter of coin grading. I assure you, had I scanned these dollars with a resolution of, lets say 300 dpi or less and on a large yellow or green background etc,( as most sellers do) you, or anyone else, would have never been able to say if any of them would be a EF40, 50, 60 or better. You would have had to mostly rely on my description. I did not do this, right, and I never do this because the way my images are, they show every tiny detail, they leave NOTHING to the imagination. AND if there are faults which can not be seen, they are declared. If you did read, not just glanced over the post, I think you will find that these grades were my opinion. I have seen worse, much worse coming out of ICCS and other TPGS. Besides the grading issue, I do not see a relevance to my 48 dollars. Incidentally, 2 of them are graded now and are not for sale now because of the grades. The other sold before.
Marcmoish
You are probably spot on correct saying it is VF 20 ( cleaned etc)
The title in the listing, clearly states EF Grade, so the seller is on a “find a dumb idiot” fishing expedition.
and, if you did read previous posts, I am moving on. The seller and I quickly settled very amicably. As I said before, he will get positive feedback.
Now fellows, I guess this all boils down to two issues (maybe 3):
1 should a buyer be financially responsible for the shipping cost
when a seller purposely misrepresents his goods?
2 Should numerical grades be allowed as a statement in the title, or
for that purpose even within the description, unless such grades
are backed up by a reputable TPG seal?
There is a third, very important issue. This one will be a subject on its own, as it has some interesting aspects to it.
So, all please go ahead and make my day, take me apart for my believes and issues…. But please, please try and see the actual issue.
It happens every day thousands of times……and perhaps even some of you are , have been victims.
Enough said, lunch time now….
Dungeness crab cakes and a nice glass of Veramonte Sauvignon Blanc
I am honestly looking forward to your opinions on this issue not gradings,...not crucifications because of what I dis or should have done, not accusations etc.etc…
This problem is much too wide spread.
H
PS: since I am at it..., please see the next post... it will be interesting.
1. Theoretically 'yes', but in reality 'no'.
My reason is this...'misrepresentation' of an item is a very fine line. Yoyur definition of this can be very different than mine.
The 1858 20c is a perfect example.
I don't think the seller misrepresented it. You do.
Why? Because as I said before, I pay ZERO attention to a seller's grade (of a raw coin).
2. It would be a better coin 'world' if no grade was in the title or description. Just for coins professionally graded.
BUT....I realize that this is impossible to ask of Ebay since coins are sold in auction, coin shows and stores as raw with a grade (so why not Ebay?).
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>1 should a buyer be financially responsible for the shipping cost
when a seller purposely misrepresents his goods?
2 Should numerical grades be allowed as a statement in the title, or
for that purpose even within the description, unless such grades
are backed up by a reputable TPG seal? >>
1. In my humble opinion, his photographs of the coins were accurate enough for bidders to make an informed decision. If he had a "moonpic" or no picture at all and described the coin as "EF" when it was VF or worse, then yes, the seller should probably also pick up the return shipping tab. Based on the actual listing, I think the winning bidder should be responsible for the return shipping cost.
2. According to Ebay policy, "EF" is not a numeric grade. It can (and is) used freely on ebay.com and other sites, sometimes misapplied to overgrade coins. On the other hand, "EF-40" and "EF-45" are a numeric grades, and to use either of those, the coin must be certified by one of the reputable TPGs on their list.
Remember that grading is subjective and isn't consistent across grading companies. In my experience I would say:
ICCS/CCCS would probably call that coin VF-20 or VF details cleaned
PCGS or NGC might call it VF details cleaned, VF-20, VF-30 or VF-35
ANACS or ICG might call it VF details cleaned, VF-20/30/35 or possibly even EF-40.
Note that only the last 4 TPGs are "official" Ebay coin TPGs. Like all those different third party opinions, the seller's description is just another (potentially biased) opinion.
Nothing against you personally YQQ, but I think the general consensus here is that the listing was clear enough for a bidder to make an informed decision. $10 for registered return shipping is sometimes just the price one must pay to view a coin in hand to decide if it's a keeper or not. 3% of the cost of the coin is a drop in the bucket. If you're really concerned about that $10, open a Paypal claim and lay out the evidence for misrepresentation and requesting reimbursement from the seller for return shipping.
had the seller mentioned the cleaning, NO bid would have been made by me.
as for the EF grade, IMO, and as I said before, he made a statement, knowing it was not true. And he omitted a very relevant fact, cleaning.
I think we can put this issue to bed?
I hope there are no hard feeling here and there.
I am now asking you guys to read my next post and make objective comments.....
Nothing to with grades at all.
And for a little humor
I always enjoy your posts.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
this morning, just before lunch I walked in to an elevator on the 15th floor.
just before the door closed this 10 walked in, boobs... wow...., a body.. even woooowwwweeerrr ,
I could not help myself but staring at her boobs...
i was absent minded on some other place..out of a cloud I heard her say
Heard her say: push one please...
so I did...
and woke up in an ambulance..
https://sites.google.com/view/coins-for-sale/home
<< <i>Ok guys, here is little fun:
this morning, just before lunch I walked in to an elevator on the 15th floor.
just before the door closed this 10 walked in, boobs... wow...., a body.. even woooowwwweeerrr ,
I could not help myself but staring at her boobs...
i was absent minded on some other place..out of a cloud I heard her say
Heard her say: push one please...
so I did...
and woke up in an ambulance.. >>
Sounds like a scence from The Wolf of Wall Street.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Which was the right thing to do even if original listing had EF noted ...and still was above board compared to the multiple kooks on ebay.
I saw no misrepresentation and now the seller is offering less info and thus making it harder on others for the returns etc. Was the coin very overpriced in your opinion?