Soundgard, who cares what the Sporting News ranked them. Come up with original thoughts and examinations, instead of just listening to the talking heads. They are as guilty as many other people for not being thorough enough, or believing in fallacies. >>
Both the sporting news and NFL network have Bradshaw ranked in the top 50 players of all-time. I care more about what they say, then some knucklehead on a message board >>
Don't be so hard on yourself.
I will gladly take them to task as I have you, and put down every notion you thought were true, while providing several items of strong evidence that you have no real answer to. They perpetuate a lot of the myths you believe in...but that makes for good stories and preys on the weakness of people, so I don't blame them for using that to hook people, because it works.
Have an original thought...instead of relying on being spoon fed by hyperbole.
Dboneesq, they never said why he isn't on the list...because it is a poor study, with not even simple criteria. But they are filmmakers, not analysts, so that is to be expected.
I decided to look a little closer at some of Namath's POSITIVE statistics and see what I could come up with.
His career was pretty much his first 5 years '65-'69 and he had a little success '72-'75.
Let's look at '65-'69. He became starter as a rookie, 3rd in passer rating and won ROY. Second year started 14 games, threw for 3379 yards #1 in passing yds per game, attempts and completions per game, 5th in passer rating. Third year Started every game, passed for 4000 yards (only time ever done in 14 games) 4th in passer rating, but was 1st in about 11 categories, including interceptions. Fourth year started every game, 4th in passer rating, 11-3 record, won Super Bowl, Fifth year, started every game, 3rd in passer rating 10-4 record, lost in playoffs. His record as a starter at this time was 37-23-4 with 11 "comebacks".
During this time he was top 5 in TD passes, and interceptions, every year.
From '66-'69 he was 1st twice, 2nd once and 3rd once in "comebacks".
Len Dawson was 1st in passer rating in '66, '67 and '68. He was a superb QB, he was one of the few high percentage completion guys of the era, but never passed for over 2900 yards in a season. Lamonica was ahead of Namath from '67-'69 in passer rating, basically his top three years, and ONLY three years, really similar to Namath in completion %. Hadl beats Joe (barely) a couple of times, another guy with 50% completions.
Dawson was the only clear cut QB during this time better than Namath. Namath was OBVIOUSLY a "flashier" player and played in New York, so he got the headlines and he did (his team, not him) win the Super Bowl before Dawson.
Namath came back from injury to play well in '72, leading the league in yards and TD's. In '74 he led the league in comebacks.
Obviously interceptions and injuries were the big negatives, the Jets also fell apart as a team soon after the Super bowl victory and much of it can be indirectly blamed on Namath's salary demands where management started cutting back on paying some of the other players salaries.
On a side note, would have LOVED to see Namath healthy when Riggens was there, what a couple of studs they were in their primes!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I think you make a good point about how dominant Joe was in his early years. Plus, I'm not sure if he had HOF receivers to help him either, but I'd have to check that.
I'm sure the spelling police will be here soon because of John Riggins.
<< <i>I decided to look a little closer at some of Namath's POSITIVE statistics and see what I could come up with.
His career was pretty much his first 5 years '65-'69 and he had a little success '72-'75.
Let's look at '65-'69. He became starter as a rookie, 3rd in passer rating and won ROY. Second year started 14 games, threw for 3379 yards #1 in passing yds per game, attempts and completions per game, 5th in passer rating. Third year Started every game, passed for 4000 yards (only time ever done in 14 games) 4th in passer rating, but was 1st in about 11 categories, including interceptions. Fourth year started every game, 4th in passer rating, 11-3 record, won Super Bowl, Fifth year, started every game, 3rd in passer rating 10-4 record, lost in playoffs. His record as a starter at this time was 37-23-4 with 11 "comebacks".
During this time he was top 5 in TD passes, and interceptions, every year.
From '66-'69 he was 1st twice, 2nd once and 3rd once in "comebacks".
Len Dawson was 1st in passer rating in '66, '67 and '68. He was a superb QB, he was one of the few high percentage completion guys of the era, but never passed for over 2900 yards in a season. Lamonica was ahead of Namath from '67-'69 in passer rating, basically his top three years, and ONLY three years, really similar to Namath in completion %. Hadl beats Joe (barely) a couple of times, another guy with 50% completions.
Dawson was the only clear cut QB during this time better than Namath. Namath was OBVIOUSLY a "flashier" player and played in New York, so he got the headlines and he did (his team, not him) win the Super Bowl before Dawson.
Namath came back from injury to play well in '72, leading the league in yards and TD's. In '74 he led the league in comebacks.
Obviously interceptions and injuries were the big negatives, the Jets also fell apart as a team soon after the Super bowl victory and much of it can be indirectly blamed on Namath's salary demands where management started cutting back on paying some of the other players salaries.
On a side note, would have LOVED to see Namath healthy when Riggens was there, what a couple of studs they were in their primes! >>
Banzi,
I hate to be the bearer of bad news in that you kind of wasted your time with your research, as you may want to check those league leading(top finishes) numbers again...as those are for leading the AFL only, and don't include any NFL QB's!
For example, your very first sentence says that he was 3rd in passer rating in his rookie year. Not true, there were at least 10 other NFL QB's with a higher rating, making him no better than 13th!
in 1969 he is listed as having the 3rd best passer rating. However, when you include the NFL QB's, there were EIGHT other QB's with a higher passer rating than him...making him the 11th ranked QB in that rating!
I could go on and on...but you get the point. Sorry edmund, you backed some false info...unless you think 13th and 11th ranked is dominant?? lol.
Here is where Namath really ranked in passer rating those years:
1965 13th 1966 14th 1967 9th 1968 11th 1969 11th
Sorry...he wasn't dominate by any stretch of the imagination, he just made a name for himself because he had a strong arm, and he shot his mouth off before the Super Bowl, and the Jets pulled the upset. Maybe he should have shot his mouth off the next year when they got trounced in the playoffs and he had the worst passer rating in playoff history
I hate to be the bearer of bad news in that you kind of wasted your time with your research, as you may want to check those league leading(top finishes) numbers again...as those are for leading the AFL only, and don't include any NFL QB's!
For example, your very first sentence says that he was 3rd in passer rating in his rookie year. Not true, there were at least 10 other NFL QB's with a higher rating, making him no better than 13th!
in 1969 he is listed as having the 3rd best passer rating. However, when you include the NFL QB's, there were EIGHT other QB's with a higher passer rating than him...making him the 11th ranked QB in that rating!
I could go on and on...but you get the point. Sorry edmund, you backed some false info...unless you think 13th and 11th ranked is dominant?? lol. >>
Fitz like many other old timers here would rather believe their faded memories than rational thought.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news in that you kind of wasted your time with your research, as you may want to check those league leading(top finishes) numbers again...as those are for leading the AFL only, and don't include any NFL QB's!
For example, your very first sentence says that he was 3rd in passer rating in his rookie year. Not true, there were at least 10 other NFL QB's with a higher rating, making him no better than 13th!
in 1969 he is listed as having the 3rd best passer rating. However, when you include the NFL QB's, there were EIGHT other QB's with a higher passer rating than him...making him the 11th ranked QB in that rating!
I could go on and on...but you get the point. Sorry edmund, you backed some false info...unless you think 13th and 11th ranked is dominant?? lol.
Here is where Namath really ranked in passer rating those years:
1965 13th 1966 14th 1967 9th 1968 11th 1969 11th
Sorry...he wasn't dominate by any stretch of the imagination, he just made a name for himself because he had a strong arm, and he shot his mouth off before the Super Bowl, and the Jets pulled the upset. Maybe he should have shot his mouth off the next year when they got trounced in the playoffs and he had the worst passer rating in playoff history
PS. The fact that a poor passer like Namath has a book about him, is more proof that he was overrated. He has a book because he has a story that is of interest! He boldly shot his mouth off before the Super Bowl, and their team pulled off a David vs. Goliath upset. He was in the big apple, he was a ladies man, and a media darling! Those story lines sell! However, none of that story makes him a better QB than he actually was!
"Before the development of the passer rating, the NFL struggled with how to crown a passing leader. In the mid-1930s, it was the quarterback with the most passing yardage. From 1938 to 1940, it was the quarterback with the highest completion percentage. In 1941, a system was created that ranked the league's quarterbacks relative to their peers' performance. Over the next thirty years the criteria used to crown a passing leader changed several times, but the ranking system made it impossible to determine a quarterback's rank until all the other quarterbacks were done playing that week, or to compare quarterback performances across multiple seasons. In 1971, NFL commissioner Pete Rozelle asked the league's statistical committee to develop a better system.[3] The committee was headed by Don Smith of the Pro Football Hall of Fame, Seymour Siwoff of the Elias Sports Bureau, and NFL executive Don Weiss. Smith and Siwoff established passing performance standards based on data from all qualified pro football passers between 1960 and 1970, and used that data to create the passer rating. The formula was adopted by the NFL in 1973.[2]"
Not sure how ANY reasonable person would use the amount of games Foles has played, and then proclaim anything, lol.
Fitz, I find it funny that when Banzi showed his 'math' study in favor of Namath, that you praised it...but since his figures were shown to be completely wrong, you now just disregard that method?? LMAO
Also, earlier on, your complaint was that Namath was being compared to QB's numbers from this time, and that it wasn't fair(and the reason why he looked so bad)...but when he was compared to his contemporaries and shown to be quite poor...you have since disappeared from that stance, lol.
Now you resort to posting an absolutely MEANINGLESS point. Boy, you are REALLY struggling!
Here is where Namath really ranked in passer rating those years:
1965 13th 1966 14th 1967 9th 1968 11th 1969 11th
Sorry...he wasn't dominate by any stretch of the imagination, he just made a name for himself because he had a strong arm, and he shot his mouth off before the Super Bowl, and the Jets pulled the upset. Maybe he should have shot his mouth off the next year when they got trounced in the playoffs and he had the worst passer rating in playoff history.
Finally, it isn't even math that destroys your point. It is logic, because it is absolutely dumb to judge an individual player based on a team event, in a team sport like football.
PS, as for Math geeks, I have offered you SEVERAL times to play that football game with me...yet you dodge every time
Here is what also goes into a QB rating that is not in your numbers.........
Does the QB's offensive line give him +3.5 seconds to throw, or -3.5 seconds to throw. Does the QB's offensive line block well enough for the team to have an established running game. Does the QB have highly effective receivers ? (Take Calvin Johnson from Detroit and put him on Joe Namath's team, and you'll have a much higher rated QB.) What type of system does/did the QB play in.
So, did Joe Namath have the best receivers ? Did he have a John Riggins when he was healthy ? How was Joe's O-LINE ?
These are things that are not put into the QB equation.
Here is what also goes into a QB rating that is not in your numbers.........
Does the QB's offensive line give him +3.5 seconds to throw, or -3.5 seconds to throw. Does the QB's offensive line block well enough for the team to have an established running game. Does the QB have highly effective receivers ? (Take Calvin Johnson from Detroit and put him on Joe Namath's team, and you'll have a much higher rated QB.) What type of system does/did the QB play in.
So, did Joe Namath have the best receivers ? Did he have a John Riggins when he was healthy ? How was Joe's O-LINE ?
These are things that are not put into the QB equation. >>
Absolutely they go into the equation...and I like how you are noticing that! However, you ignored EVERY ONE of those things in regard to Bradshaw, especially since Bradshaw benefited as much as any QB in history from those things!
Don't forget to add the defense's impact in terms of winning too...another thing you completely gloss over in regard to Bradshaw.
But back to the point on Namath...you praised Banzi's post with Namath's rankings, but when it was pointed out that the rankings were wrong, and he indeed ranked much lower among his peers, you then started saying that those things don't matter. It smacks of insincerity on your part.
I never saw Joe Namath play on a consistent basis.
I saw a lot of Terry Bradshaw.
I have to take people's word on Namath if they saw him play. For example, I saw Bradshaw play, and Terry was very good in my opinion, even though his rating numbers are low.
If Namath's rating numbers are low, but people who saw him play say he was very good, then I can take their word for it, because Bradshaw is in the same boat as Namath.
I also understand that Bradshaw and Namath likely benefit from the "wow" factor of us being young kids, and young kids usually like to associate themselves with a winner. In 1971 we were Cowboy fans. In 1972 we switched to the Dolphins. In 1979 we we probably Steeler fans. That's what kids do, we go with the winners. That's why a lot of kids will always tell you that Namath and Bradshaw were great, no matter what the numbers say.
<< <i>I never saw Joe Namath play on a consistent basis.
I saw a lot of Terry Bradshaw.
I have to take people's word on Namath if they saw him play. For example, I saw Bradshaw play, and Terry was very good in my opinion, even though his rating numbers are low.
If Namath's rating numbers are low, but people who saw him play say he was very good, then I can take their word for it, because Bradshaw is in the same boat as Namath.
I also understand that Bradshaw and Namath likely benefit from the "wow" factor of us being young kids, and young kids usually like to associate themselves with a winner. In 1971 we were Cowboy fans. In 1972 we switched to the Dolphins. In 1979 we we probably Steeler fans. That's what kids do, we go with the winners. That's why a lot of kids will always tell you that Namath and Bradshaw were great, no matter what the numbers say. >>
Fair enough...that is a sincere statement.
PS. Fitz, as I read your statement again...I like that statement. Insightful and honest.
<< <i>I decided to look a little closer at some of Namath's POSITIVE statistics and see what I could come up with.
His career was pretty much his first 5 years '65-'69 and he had a little success '72-'75.
Let's look at '65-'69. He became starter as a rookie, 3rd in passer rating and won ROY. Second year started 14 games, threw for 3379 yards #1 in passing yds per game, attempts and completions per game, 5th in passer rating. Third year Started every game, passed for 4000 yards (only time ever done in 14 games) 4th in passer rating, but was 1st in about 11 categories, including interceptions. Fourth year started every game, 4th in passer rating, 11-3 record, won Super Bowl, Fifth year, started every game, 3rd in passer rating 10-4 record, lost in playoffs. His record as a starter at this time was 37-23-4 with 11 "comebacks".
During this time he was top 5 in TD passes, and interceptions, every year.
From '66-'69 he was 1st twice, 2nd once and 3rd once in "comebacks".
Len Dawson was 1st in passer rating in '66, '67 and '68. He was a superb QB, he was one of the few high percentage completion guys of the era, but never passed for over 2900 yards in a season. Lamonica was ahead of Namath from '67-'69 in passer rating, basically his top three years, and ONLY three years, really similar to Namath in completion %. Hadl beats Joe (barely) a couple of times, another guy with 50% completions.
Dawson was the only clear cut QB during this time better than Namath. Namath was OBVIOUSLY a "flashier" player and played in New York, so he got the headlines and he did (his team, not him) win the Super Bowl before Dawson.
Namath came back from injury to play well in '72, leading the league in yards and TD's. In '74 he led the league in comebacks.
Obviously interceptions and injuries were the big negatives, the Jets also fell apart as a team soon after the Super bowl victory and much of it can be indirectly blamed on Namath's salary demands where management started cutting back on paying some of the other players salaries.
On a side note, would have LOVED to see Namath healthy when Riggens was there, what a couple of studs they were in their primes! >>
Banzi,
I hate to be the bearer of bad news in that you kind of wasted your time with your research, as you may want to check those league leading(top finishes) numbers again...as those are for leading the AFL only, and don't include any NFL QB's!
For example, your very first sentence says that he was 3rd in passer rating in his rookie year. Not true, there were at least 10 other NFL QB's with a higher rating, making him no better than 13th!
in 1969 he is listed as having the 3rd best passer rating. However, when you include the NFL QB's, there were EIGHT other QB's with a higher passer rating than him...making him the 11th ranked QB in that rating!
I could go on and on...but you get the point. Sorry edmund, you backed some false info...unless you think 13th and 11th ranked is dominant?? lol.
Here is where Namath really ranked in passer rating those years:
1965 13th 1966 14th 1967 9th 1968 11th 1969 11th
Sorry...he wasn't dominate by any stretch of the imagination, he just made a name for himself because he had a strong arm, and he shot his mouth off before the Super Bowl, and the Jets pulled the upset. Maybe he should have shot his mouth off the next year when they got trounced in the playoffs and he had the worst passer rating in playoff history >>
Not as familiar with Football Reference figured the stats would be combined. Doesn't bother me too much being wrong once in a while!
One thing I am noticing is that the guy I have mentioned that doesn't get the credit he deserves, Tarkenton, is looking pretty good in the comparisons that have been shown here.
I still don't think Namath "sucked" or that he was the "most" over rated, but the (correct) numbers show he was in or near the top ten during his prime. Too bad he had the bad knees.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
<< <i>PS. The fact that a poor passer like Namath has a book about him, is more proof that he was overrated. He has a book because he has a story that is of interest! He boldly shot his mouth off before the Super Bowl, and their team pulled off a David vs. Goliath upset. He was in the big apple, he was a ladies man, and a media darling! Those story lines sell! However, none of that story makes him a better QB than he actually was! >>
He was an extremely talented football player with a story of interest. He is still the only QB to pass for 4000 yards in a 14 game season. By the way he played the last game and 1/2 with a broken cheekbone and injured thumb on his throwing hand as well as the bum knees.
I realize that I was wrong about his rankings, but I still challenge you stat lovers to read the book and not have to respect his abilities.
I will now leave the Namath debate defeated, but at least I was right about Larry Walker! Hahahahahaha
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
Soundgard, who cares what the Sporting News ranked them. Come up with original thoughts and examinations, instead of just listening to the talking heads. They are as guilty as many other people for not being thorough enough, or believing in fallacies. >>
Both the sporting news and NFL network have Bradshaw ranked in the top 50 players of all-time. I care more about what they say, then some knucklehead on a message board
Don't be so hard on yourself.
I will gladly take them to task as I have you, and put down every notion you thought were true, while providing several items of strong evidence that you have no real answer to. They perpetuate a lot of the myths you believe in...but that makes for good stories and preys on the weakness of people, so I don't blame them for using that to hook people, because it works.
Have an original thought...instead of relying on being spoon fed by hyperbole.
Dboneesq, they never said why he isn't on the list...because it is a poor study, with not even simple criteria. But they are filmmakers, not analysts, so that is to be expected.
His career was pretty much his first 5 years '65-'69 and he had a little success '72-'75.
Let's look at '65-'69. He became starter as a rookie, 3rd in passer rating and won ROY. Second year started 14 games, threw for 3379 yards #1 in passing yds per game, attempts and completions per game, 5th in passer rating. Third year Started every game, passed for 4000 yards (only time ever done in 14 games) 4th in passer rating, but was 1st in about 11 categories, including interceptions. Fourth year started every game, 4th in passer rating, 11-3 record, won Super Bowl, Fifth year, started every game, 3rd in passer rating 10-4 record, lost in playoffs. His record as a starter at this time was 37-23-4 with 11 "comebacks".
During this time he was top 5 in TD passes, and interceptions, every year.
From '66-'69 he was 1st twice, 2nd once and 3rd once in "comebacks".
Len Dawson was 1st in passer rating in '66, '67 and '68. He was a superb QB, he was one of the few high percentage completion guys of the era, but never passed for over 2900 yards in a season. Lamonica was ahead of Namath from '67-'69 in passer rating, basically his top three years, and ONLY three years, really similar to Namath in completion %. Hadl beats Joe (barely) a couple of times, another guy with 50% completions.
Dawson was the only clear cut QB during this time better than Namath. Namath was OBVIOUSLY a "flashier" player and played in New York, so he got the headlines and he did (his team, not him) win the Super Bowl before Dawson.
Namath came back from injury to play well in '72, leading the league in yards and TD's. In '74 he led the league in comebacks.
Obviously interceptions and injuries were the big negatives, the Jets also fell apart as a team soon after the Super bowl victory and much of it can be indirectly blamed on Namath's salary demands where management started cutting back on paying some of the other players salaries.
On a side note, would have LOVED to see Namath healthy when Riggens was there, what a couple of studs they were in their primes!
I think you make a good point about how dominant Joe was in his early years. Plus, I'm not sure if he had HOF receivers to help him either, but I'd have to check that.
I'm sure the spelling police will be here soon because of John Riggins.
---1985Fan
<< <i>I decided to look a little closer at some of Namath's POSITIVE statistics and see what I could come up with.
His career was pretty much his first 5 years '65-'69 and he had a little success '72-'75.
Let's look at '65-'69. He became starter as a rookie, 3rd in passer rating and won ROY. Second year started 14 games, threw for 3379 yards #1 in passing yds per game, attempts and completions per game, 5th in passer rating. Third year Started every game, passed for 4000 yards (only time ever done in 14 games) 4th in passer rating, but was 1st in about 11 categories, including interceptions. Fourth year started every game, 4th in passer rating, 11-3 record, won Super Bowl, Fifth year, started every game, 3rd in passer rating 10-4 record, lost in playoffs. His record as a starter at this time was 37-23-4 with 11 "comebacks".
During this time he was top 5 in TD passes, and interceptions, every year.
From '66-'69 he was 1st twice, 2nd once and 3rd once in "comebacks".
Len Dawson was 1st in passer rating in '66, '67 and '68. He was a superb QB, he was one of the few high percentage completion guys of the era, but never passed for over 2900 yards in a season. Lamonica was ahead of Namath from '67-'69 in passer rating, basically his top three years, and ONLY three years, really similar to Namath in completion %. Hadl beats Joe (barely) a couple of times, another guy with 50% completions.
Dawson was the only clear cut QB during this time better than Namath. Namath was OBVIOUSLY a "flashier" player and played in New York, so he got the headlines and he did (his team, not him) win the Super Bowl before Dawson.
Namath came back from injury to play well in '72, leading the league in yards and TD's. In '74 he led the league in comebacks.
Obviously interceptions and injuries were the big negatives, the Jets also fell apart as a team soon after the Super bowl victory and much of it can be indirectly blamed on Namath's salary demands where management started cutting back on paying some of the other players salaries.
On a side note, would have LOVED to see Namath healthy when Riggens was there, what a couple of studs they were in their primes! >>
Banzi,
I hate to be the bearer of bad news in that you kind of wasted your time with your research, as you may want to check those league leading(top finishes) numbers again...as those are for leading the AFL only, and don't include any NFL QB's!
For example, your very first sentence says that he was 3rd in passer rating in his rookie year. Not true, there were at least 10 other NFL QB's with a higher rating, making him no better than 13th!
in 1969 he is listed as having the 3rd best passer rating. However, when you include the NFL QB's, there were EIGHT other QB's with a higher passer rating than him...making him the 11th ranked QB in that rating!
I could go on and on...but you get the point. Sorry edmund, you backed some false info...unless you think 13th and 11th ranked is dominant?? lol.
Here is where Namath really ranked in passer rating those years:
1965 13th
1966 14th
1967 9th
1968 11th
1969 11th
Sorry...he wasn't dominate by any stretch of the imagination, he just made a name for himself because he had a strong arm, and he shot his mouth off before the Super Bowl, and the Jets pulled the upset. Maybe he should have shot his mouth off the next year when they got trounced in the playoffs and he had the worst passer rating in playoff history
<< <i>
Banzi,
I hate to be the bearer of bad news in that you kind of wasted your time with your research, as you may want to check those league leading(top finishes) numbers again...as those are for leading the AFL only, and don't include any NFL QB's!
For example, your very first sentence says that he was 3rd in passer rating in his rookie year. Not true, there were at least 10 other NFL QB's with a higher rating, making him no better than 13th!
in 1969 he is listed as having the 3rd best passer rating. However, when you include the NFL QB's, there were EIGHT other QB's with a higher passer rating than him...making him the 11th ranked QB in that rating!
I could go on and on...but you get the point. Sorry edmund, you backed some false info...unless you think 13th and 11th ranked is dominant?? lol. >>
Fitz like many other old timers here would rather believe their faded memories than rational thought.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news in that you kind of wasted your time with your research, as you may want to check those league leading(top finishes) numbers again...as those are for leading the AFL only, and don't include any NFL QB's!
For example, your very first sentence says that he was 3rd in passer rating in his rookie year. Not true, there were at least 10 other NFL QB's with a higher rating, making him no better than 13th!
in 1969 he is listed as having the 3rd best passer rating. However, when you include the NFL QB's, there were EIGHT other QB's with a higher passer rating than him...making him the 11th ranked QB in that rating!
I could go on and on...but you get the point. Sorry edmund, you backed some false info...unless you think 13th and 11th ranked is dominant?? lol.
Here is where Namath really ranked in passer rating those years:
1965 13th
1966 14th
1967 9th
1968 11th
1969 11th
Sorry...he wasn't dominate by any stretch of the imagination, he just made a name for himself because he had a strong arm, and he shot his mouth off before the Super Bowl, and the Jets pulled the upset. Maybe he should have shot his mouth off the next year when they got trounced in the playoffs and he had the worst passer rating in playoff history
PS. The fact that a poor passer like Namath has a book about him, is more proof that he was overrated. He has a book because he has a story that is of interest! He boldly shot his mouth off before the Super Bowl, and their team pulled off a David vs. Goliath upset. He was in the big apple, he was a ladies man, and a media darling! Those story lines sell! However, none of that story makes him a better QB than he actually was!
Math 'geeks' indeed.
<< <i>Nick Foles is the greatest QB in the NFL this year according to the math geeks >>
Not sure how ANY reasonable person would use the amount of games Foles has played, and then proclaim anything, lol.
Fitz, I find it funny that when Banzi showed his 'math' study in favor of Namath, that you praised it...but since his figures were shown to be completely wrong, you now just disregard that method?? LMAO
Also, earlier on, your complaint was that Namath was being compared to QB's numbers from this time, and that it wasn't fair(and the reason why he looked so bad)...but when he was compared to his contemporaries and shown to be quite poor...you have since disappeared from that stance, lol.
Now you resort to posting an absolutely MEANINGLESS point. Boy, you are REALLY struggling!
Here is where Namath really ranked in passer rating those years:
1965 13th
1966 14th
1967 9th
1968 11th
1969 11th
Sorry...he wasn't dominate by any stretch of the imagination, he just made a name for himself because he had a strong arm, and he shot his mouth off before the Super Bowl, and the Jets pulled the upset. Maybe he should have shot his mouth off the next year when they got trounced in the playoffs and he had the worst passer rating in playoff history.
Finally, it isn't even math that destroys your point. It is logic, because it is absolutely dumb to judge an individual player based on a team event, in a team sport like football.
PS, as for Math geeks, I have offered you SEVERAL times to play that football game with me...yet you dodge every time
<< <i>Here is where Namath really ranked in passer rating those years:
1965 13th
1966 14th
1967 9th
1968 11th
1969 11th >>
Need some aloe vera for that burn?
Here is what also goes into a QB rating that is not in your numbers.........
Does the QB's offensive line give him +3.5 seconds to throw, or -3.5 seconds to throw.
Does the QB's offensive line block well enough for the team to have an established running game.
Does the QB have highly effective receivers ? (Take Calvin Johnson from Detroit and put him on Joe Namath's team, and you'll have
a much higher rated QB.)
What type of system does/did the QB play in.
So, did Joe Namath have the best receivers ? Did he have a John Riggins when he was healthy ? How was Joe's O-LINE ?
These are things that are not put into the QB equation.
<< <i>Skin2,
Here is what also goes into a QB rating that is not in your numbers.........
Does the QB's offensive line give him +3.5 seconds to throw, or -3.5 seconds to throw.
Does the QB's offensive line block well enough for the team to have an established running game.
Does the QB have highly effective receivers ? (Take Calvin Johnson from Detroit and put him on Joe Namath's team, and you'll have
a much higher rated QB.)
What type of system does/did the QB play in.
So, did Joe Namath have the best receivers ? Did he have a John Riggins when he was healthy ? How was Joe's O-LINE ?
These are things that are not put into the QB equation. >>
Absolutely they go into the equation...and I like how you are noticing that! However, you ignored EVERY ONE of those things in regard to Bradshaw, especially since Bradshaw benefited as much as any QB in history from those things!
Don't forget to add the defense's impact in terms of winning too...another thing you completely gloss over in regard to Bradshaw.
But back to the point on Namath...you praised Banzi's post with Namath's rankings, but when it was pointed out that the rankings were wrong, and he indeed ranked much lower among his peers, you then started saying that those things don't matter. It smacks of insincerity on your part.
I saw a lot of Terry Bradshaw.
I have to take people's word on Namath if they saw him play. For example, I saw Bradshaw play, and Terry was very good
in my opinion, even though his rating numbers are low.
If Namath's rating numbers are low, but people who saw him play say he was very good, then I can take their word for it, because
Bradshaw is in the same boat as Namath.
I also understand that Bradshaw and Namath likely benefit from the "wow" factor of us being young kids, and young kids usually like to associate themselves with a winner. In 1971 we were Cowboy fans. In 1972 we switched to the Dolphins. In 1979 we we probably Steeler fans. That's what kids do, we go with the winners. That's why a lot of kids will always tell you that
Namath and Bradshaw were great, no matter what the numbers say.
<< <i>I never saw Joe Namath play on a consistent basis.
I saw a lot of Terry Bradshaw.
I have to take people's word on Namath if they saw him play. For example, I saw Bradshaw play, and Terry was very good
in my opinion, even though his rating numbers are low.
If Namath's rating numbers are low, but people who saw him play say he was very good, then I can take their word for it, because
Bradshaw is in the same boat as Namath.
I also understand that Bradshaw and Namath likely benefit from the "wow" factor of us being young kids, and young kids usually like to associate themselves with a winner. In 1971 we were Cowboy fans. In 1972 we switched to the Dolphins. In 1979 we we probably Steeler fans. That's what kids do, we go with the winners. That's why a lot of kids will always tell you that
Namath and Bradshaw were great, no matter what the numbers say. >>
Fair enough...that is a sincere statement.
PS. Fitz, as I read your statement again...I like that statement. Insightful and honest.
<< <i>
<< <i>I decided to look a little closer at some of Namath's POSITIVE statistics and see what I could come up with.
His career was pretty much his first 5 years '65-'69 and he had a little success '72-'75.
Let's look at '65-'69. He became starter as a rookie, 3rd in passer rating and won ROY. Second year started 14 games, threw for 3379 yards #1 in passing yds per game, attempts and completions per game, 5th in passer rating. Third year Started every game, passed for 4000 yards (only time ever done in 14 games) 4th in passer rating, but was 1st in about 11 categories, including interceptions. Fourth year started every game, 4th in passer rating, 11-3 record, won Super Bowl, Fifth year, started every game, 3rd in passer rating 10-4 record, lost in playoffs. His record as a starter at this time was 37-23-4 with 11 "comebacks".
During this time he was top 5 in TD passes, and interceptions, every year.
From '66-'69 he was 1st twice, 2nd once and 3rd once in "comebacks".
Len Dawson was 1st in passer rating in '66, '67 and '68. He was a superb QB, he was one of the few high percentage completion guys of the era, but never passed for over 2900 yards in a season. Lamonica was ahead of Namath from '67-'69 in passer rating, basically his top three years, and ONLY three years, really similar to Namath in completion %. Hadl beats Joe (barely) a couple of times, another guy with 50% completions.
Dawson was the only clear cut QB during this time better than Namath. Namath was OBVIOUSLY a "flashier" player and played in New York, so he got the headlines and he did (his team, not him) win the Super Bowl before Dawson.
Namath came back from injury to play well in '72, leading the league in yards and TD's. In '74 he led the league in comebacks.
Obviously interceptions and injuries were the big negatives, the Jets also fell apart as a team soon after the Super bowl victory and much of it can be indirectly blamed on Namath's salary demands where management started cutting back on paying some of the other players salaries.
On a side note, would have LOVED to see Namath healthy when Riggens was there, what a couple of studs they were in their primes! >>
Banzi,
I hate to be the bearer of bad news in that you kind of wasted your time with your research, as you may want to check those league leading(top finishes) numbers again...as those are for leading the AFL only, and don't include any NFL QB's!
For example, your very first sentence says that he was 3rd in passer rating in his rookie year. Not true, there were at least 10 other NFL QB's with a higher rating, making him no better than 13th!
in 1969 he is listed as having the 3rd best passer rating. However, when you include the NFL QB's, there were EIGHT other QB's with a higher passer rating than him...making him the 11th ranked QB in that rating!
I could go on and on...but you get the point. Sorry edmund, you backed some false info...unless you think 13th and 11th ranked is dominant?? lol.
Here is where Namath really ranked in passer rating those years:
1965 13th
1966 14th
1967 9th
1968 11th
1969 11th
Sorry...he wasn't dominate by any stretch of the imagination, he just made a name for himself because he had a strong arm, and he shot his mouth off before the Super Bowl, and the Jets pulled the upset. Maybe he should have shot his mouth off the next year when they got trounced in the playoffs and he had the worst passer rating in playoff history
Not as familiar with Football Reference figured the stats would be combined. Doesn't bother me too much being wrong once in a while!
One thing I am noticing is that the guy I have mentioned that doesn't get the credit he deserves, Tarkenton, is looking pretty good in the comparisons that have been shown here.
I still don't think Namath "sucked" or that he was the "most" over rated, but the (correct) numbers show he was in or near the top ten during his prime. Too bad he had the bad knees.
<< <i>PS. The fact that a poor passer like Namath has a book about him, is more proof that he was overrated. He has a book because he has a story that is of interest! He boldly shot his mouth off before the Super Bowl, and their team pulled off a David vs. Goliath upset. He was in the big apple, he was a ladies man, and a media darling! Those story lines sell! However, none of that story makes him a better QB than he actually was! >>
He was an extremely talented football player with a story of interest. He is still the only QB to pass for 4000 yards in a 14 game season. By the way he played the last game and 1/2 with a broken cheekbone and injured thumb on his throwing hand as well as the bum knees.
I realize that I was wrong about his rankings, but I still challenge you stat lovers to read the book and not have to respect his abilities.
I will now leave the Namath debate defeated, but at least I was right about Larry Walker! Hahahahahaha
A GOOD debate is fun. Some here are just moronic peabrains stirring the pot trying to pi$$ people off....................they bore me.
One things for sure, I will be checking my research more carefully in the future!
<< <i>Good thing I wasn't "invested" in this one like I was with Walker. LOL
A GOOD debate is fun. Some here are just moronic peabrains stirring the pot trying to pi$$ people off....................they bore me.
One things for sure, I will be checking my research more carefully in the future! >>
If any of the Namath haters has his rookie card, I would gladly take it off your hands
Hey skin/1985 how come you don't post as saberman? Did you get banned?