1970-1972 Topps BB Racks in MLI Winter Auction
70ToppsFanatic
Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭✭
For those who may be interested in the 1970-1972 racks being offered in the winter 2013 MLI auction, a word of
warning.
Both cpamike and I examined them at National and passed on them (even with GAI slabs). The seals are not
consistent with known good racks from those years (54-card racks had wide inter-cell division to prevent them
from tearing while hanging on the display). The were also some seriously questionable seals on them. I believe
BBCE passed on them at National too.
Based on my hands-on review of these I will certainly not be bidding on any of them.
warning.
Both cpamike and I examined them at National and passed on them (even with GAI slabs). The seals are not
consistent with known good racks from those years (54-card racks had wide inter-cell division to prevent them
from tearing while hanging on the display). The were also some seriously questionable seals on them. I believe
BBCE passed on them at National too.
Based on my hands-on review of these I will certainly not be bidding on any of them.
Dave
0
Comments
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
But a nice heads-up for collectors.
aconte
<< <i>It's not just GAI packs that you need to worry about. >>
No, I worry about raw ones too. Since PSA doesn't grade racks that pretty much covers it.
I've caught just about all of the majors offering unopened that I personally held in my own hands and rejected. I'm no Steve Hart, but I am
also not a rookie. And in the case of these racks, cpamike looked at them too and we both came to the same conclusions independently
and then compared notes. There is a HUGE difference between looking at pictures of racks in an auction listing and holding the racks in
your hands and being able to look at them from many angles (and with a 10x loupe). FWIW, the GAI slab numbers on all of them also
make them suspect.
The story behind these racks is that the person who offered them to me told me that they came through auction houses (not BBCE), and
most of them from an auction house in particular that I know has offered racks that were clearly bogus before (and refused to pull them
when this was pointed out to them prior to the close of their auction).
At this stage of the game, you basically have to be VERY careful as the supply of legitimate racks has become very, VERY thin. If you
don't know the lineage of the material you are asking for trouble.
As I said before, free advice is worth what you pay for it. There are a lot of crooks out there trying to take advantage of inexperienced
people out there who dont think twice about chasing racks that have this kind of star power. IMHO, anyone who bids on these is
going after "re-seals".
Dave
Hope cyber Monday is great to you.
Dave
Dave
<< <i>Could someone post scans of some good 70-71 racks? Thanks in advance >>
Here's a run of authentic racks from 1971-1973. In addition to the wider seams that David mentioned, another important thing to look for on these 54-card racks is the length of the rack iself. The 54-card racks from these years measure slightly shorter in length than the racks used later in the 1970s. 54-card racks measure approximately 12" long whereas the racks from later years with the narrower seams measured nearly 13" long.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Jeff
Card Country
Graded stars 1950's-1980
<< <i>So the circular hole in the header card is not always present with the '71 racks? >>
No, in 1971 there are several different header card variations. There's the one with the cross-hatch pictured above in the scan with same header graphics on each side, there's the one with circular hole with blank reverse and there's also the one with circular hole with header graphics on both sides, too. In '71, there's also racks with the player header card, which also has cross-hatch hole.
There has been some debate about 71 racks with the player header cards, but John (jmoran), who knows sequencing for this issue better than anyone, has ripped a couple of them and the sequencing of cards was true to sheet placement throughout the rack. As an unopened collector, though, I prefer racks with the Topps header card. Same thing on the '74 racks with team header cards--they are legit racks, but don't command the premium that 74 racks with Topps blue header card command.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Beautiful packs Tim. Man I'd love to open them all!!
Jeff >>
Thanks, Jeff! I'd have to pick up a rack with a few splits in the seams to rationalize that rip, LOL..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I've been having an increased urge to open packs- I finally had to buy an 82 Donruss case from BBCE. Gonna rip the whole thing next weekend.
Jeff
Card Country
Graded stars 1950's-1980
<< <i>Yeah that would do!! I don't know how you have the will-power to keep them sealed. They would taunt me! LOL
I've been having an increased urge to open packs- I finally had to buy an 82 Donruss case from BBCE. Gonna rip the whole thing next weekend.
Jeff >>
I saw that one was sold on the site and wondered who picked it up! Good luck with the rip!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Jeff
Card Country
Graded stars 1950's-1980
Great job pointing these out to the board Dave. Lots of red flags with these rack packs. It is a shame as the guy that bought them didn't seem to have any idea they were questionable. Auction houses are hit or miss with unopened, but their return policies aren't typically as buyer friendly as eBay so be very careful.
I would recommend sitting this one out everyone.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
So let me get this straight...You two inspected the packs at the show--came up with the same conclusions that the packs were possibly tampered. No where in your comments does it say either one of you informed ML of this. Rather, you just walk pass and let someone else get possibly taken. Nice.
Would you like to clarify?
<< <i>So let me get this straight...You two inspected the packs at the show--came up with the same conclusions that the packs were possibly tampered. No where in your comments does it say either one of you informed ML of this. Rather, you just walk pass and let someone else get possibly taken. Nice.
Would you like to clarify? >>
I only became aware of these auctions when I posted today and I assumed someone has already mentioned these racks to ML. But to be honest with you, ML will probably say the racks are graded by a TPG and they are relying on their expertise. Hope that helps clarify things for you.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
the same was done by BBCE at the show. That this person kept that knowledge
to themself when either pushing them off on someone else (who placed them with
an auction house) or placing them with an auction house directly is disheartening.
As for speaking with auction houses directly about this kind of thing, been there before
and done it before. Sadly it is a waste of time. The AH's will not go against the TPGs.
It would undermine their business completely to do so. If it has a TPG seal of approval
then they trust it as the gospel truth. Their no returns policies are also constructed to
protect their own positions and to hell with any "sucker" who ends up getting taken as a
result of their failure to perform proper due diligence.
All of the major AH's have done this. I have personally caught three of them selling bad
unopened product. But the problem is that with unopened you are basically only able to
deal with opinions, not certainty. Even the TPGs make mistakes (and in the case of these
racks, they come from a very suspect period in GAI's history too).
The AHs will continue doing this because who is to say whether myself, Mike or Steve are
right or wrong on these? Why should an AH turn away business just because the most trusted
expert in the country and two very experienced collectors all felt these racks did not hold up
to expected norms? GAI said it was good, so it's easier to go with that and keep these items in
the auction than to withdraw them and, at the very least, get them verified.
So the next best alternative is to do what I did. Tell our community what I know from personal
hands-on inspections by myself and two others who I trust, and publically state my intent not to
go after any of them.
If anyone here does decide to bid on these items, I wish you the best of luck in both winning them
and getting a indrpendent verification of the original GAI slabs. I stick by my original opinion that
based upon hands in inspection I do not believe these items to be genuine, untampered-with unopened
product
Dave
Thanks for the info...but i find it a little hard to believe that Dan would knowingly put something suspect or allow it in their auction..but then again there is that Honus Wagner thingy hanging out there with another auction company.
<< <i>As for speaking with auction houses directly about this kind of thing, been there before
and done it before. Sadly it is a waste of time. >>
Based on a similar experience, I would agree.
aconte
<< <i>
<< <i>So let me get this straight...You two inspected the packs at the show--came up with the same conclusions that the packs were possibly tampered. No where in your comments does it say either one of you informed ML of this. Rather, you just walk pass and let someone else get possibly taken. Nice.
Would you like to clarify? >>
I only became aware of these auctions when I posted today and I assumed someone has already mentioned these racks to ML. But to be honest with you, ML will probably say the racks are graded by a TPG and they are relying on their expertise. Hope that helps clarify things for you. >>
Normally, I would agree with you Mike but I can say that Heritage did recently remove the '73 Schmidt on top GAI cello that was obviously bad (wrong year cellophane).
<< <i>As for speaking with auction houses directly about this kind of thing, been there before
and done it before. Sadly it is a waste of time. The AH's will not go against the TPGs.
It would undermine their business completely to do so. If it has a TPG seal of approval
then they trust it as the gospel truth. Their no returns policies are also constructed to
protect their own positions and to hell with any "sucker" who ends up getting taken as a
result of their failure to perform proper due diligence. >>
case in point, this was just in legendary's auction. these bad cellos graded by gai have been floating around for almost 10 years now. and most auction houses keep looking the other way even though they know 100% that they are bogus.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So let me get this straight...You two inspected the packs at the show--came up with the same conclusions that the packs were possibly tampered. No where in your comments does it say either one of you informed ML of this. Rather, you just walk pass and let someone else get possibly taken. Nice.
Would you like to clarify? >>
I only became aware of these auctions when I posted today and I assumed someone has already mentioned these racks to ML. But to be honest with you, ML will probably say the racks are graded by a TPG and they are relying on their expertise. Hope that helps clarify things for you. >>
Normally, I would agree with you Mike but I can say that Heritage did recently remove the '73 Schmidt on top GAI cello that was obviously bad (wrong year cellophane). >>
True, but like you said that one was so blatantly bad. There were other questionable packs that Heritage was informed of that were not pulled from that auction IIRC.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>As for speaking with auction houses directly about this kind of thing, been there before and done it before. Sadly it is a waste of time. >>
Ignorance. You haven't even contacted Memory Lane.
1970 rack Carew Top
1970 rack Bench McCovey Top
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.