1909 Matte Proof cents Die 1 and Die 2 "notice the difference"

BWRC

Notice that Die 2 obverse and reverse have better striking detail than Die 1.

Notice that Die 2 has no die lines along/above the nose. No line off the back of Lincoln's jacket moving up towards the "R" in Liberty like the 1909 Matte Proof Die 1 and the 1909 VDB Matte Proof have.

Die 2 has its own "set of obverse die line markers", They are located about 1/2 way between Lincolns Eye and the rim of the coin. They have the appearance of a "small claw" in the field.

Notice that Die 2 has a "doubled die reverse" most evident on the "TE" of united.



Die 1 PCGS PR67RD



Die 2 PCGS PR66+RD

lkeigwin

Good info on the different die pairs.

It's really hard to make out the markers from the pix provided. If you know exactly what to look for you can kinda make out the die line from the middle back to below the R in LIBERTY (die 2). But the nose lines, claw and doubling are really tough to see.

Coinfacts has some nice. big photos but they're all die #1. (edit to add I only looked at the BN ones.)
Lance.

lusterlover

Brian,

Thanks for sharing. I'm always interested in more MPL knowledge. Is one more rare than the other?

BWRC

Die 2 is rarer,

I estimate Die 2 is at least 10X rarer.

Mint records show production for the 1909 MPL cent was completed in Aug 1909, then another 200 were minted in December, these were most likely made to provide additional coins for proof set orders. Die 2 is a totally different animal than Die 1.
New obverse and reverse die, much more striking detail and the two red specimens I have seen, have more brilliance than the Die 1 coins.
Below is an blow-up of the 1909 MPL Die2 coin pictured in this thread. These obverse die lines are the " identifying marker" for this coin. Also a Die 1 coin showing die lines running along and above the nose.

WingedLiberty1957

I think mine is a die 1 ... right?

robec

Yours is a 1. So is mine, darn!

ThePennyLady

Brian, thank you for posting these large photos and the specifics on the new 1909 MPL Die 2. It really helps to have a detailed exemplar to compare the two different dies to. With this information and photos, it'll be interesting to see if more people pay attention to their 1909 MPL's to see if they have this much rarer die. I'm really curious to see, based on more publicizing of this new die, how much the known population increases.

BWRC

Your welcome,

I invite the owners of 1909 Matte Proof cents to log-in here and let us know what die your coin is.

ThePennyLady

Well, as you know, I have one ;-)

WaterSport

WS reporting as requested Sir!

My 1909 MPL is Die Number 1 Sir!

Great to hear from you Brian!!!

WS

robec

Soty27 (Chris) also had one if I remember correctly.

BWRC

Yes, at one time he had a PCGS PR66BN.

BWRC

Here is the best shot I could find of the 1909 MPL cent, Die2 reverse. Notice the doubling, especially on the "TE" of United, other letters also.

I went to PCGS coin facts and studied all of the (40) 1909 MPL images posted. Here is the tally of the Die1/ Die2 coins.

(1) 1909 PCGS PR66+ RD out of 12 RD coins.
(3) 1909 PCGS PRRB (1) 66RB (2) 65RB out of 23 RB coins.
(0) 1909 PCGS PRBN out of 5 BN coins.

40 images
4 were of Die2 36 of Die1

BWRC

Nice blowup image added to show the DDR on Die2.

Thank you FunwithMPL

WaterSport

LOL, lets hope that DDR is not added to the variety proof set!

Cool as it is however.

WS

Steve

<< <i>Die 2 is rarer,

I estimate Die 2 is at least 10X rarer.

Mint records show production for the 1909 MPL cent was completed in Aug 1909, then another 200 were minted in December, these were most likely made to provide additional coins for proof set orders. Die 2 is a totally different animal than Die 1.
New obverse and reverse die, much more striking detail and the two red specimens I have seen, have more brilliance than the Die 1 coins.
Below is an blow-up of the 1909 MPL Die2 coin pictured in this thread. These obverse die lines are the " identifying marker" for this coin. Also a Die 1 coin showing die lines running along and above the nose.

>>



Brian,
Good information. My 1909 MPL is obverse Die 1, the same as my 1909VDB MPL. My 1909 MPL is also reverse Die 1 with the die chips at 3 and 9 o'clock. Your identification of a second obverse and reverse die links with what Leonard Albrecht reported in his 1982 study in the ANA pamphlet however your description photos and his description and photos of the obverse and reverse Die 2's are different. One other point is that 680, not only 200, were delivered to the coiner on December 8th and December 24th. Obviously, we don't know when the new obverse and reverse Die 2's were actually put into production so it is entirely possible that the Die 2's are 10 times rarer than die 1's.
I have relied on Albrecht's data thru the years but I also note that Kevin Flynn comments in his Matte Proof book that Die 2's for the 1909 MPL have not been verified from Albrecht's descriptions. Your finding that 36 of the 40 1909 MPL's pictured in Coin Facts are Die pair 1's is very convincing. It is a very interesting study and I do think we need to get more data about these die 2's and whether there might be some die 3's out there too.
Steve

droopyd

By gum, mine is die #2!

BWRC

<< <i>

<< <i>Die 2 is rarer,

I estimate Die 2 is at least 10X rarer.

Mint records show production for the 1909 MPL cent was completed in Aug 1909, then another 200 were minted in December, these were most likely made to provide additional coins for proof set orders. Die 2 is a totally different animal than Die 1.
New obverse and reverse die, much more striking detail and the two red specimens I have seen, have more brilliance than the Die 1 coins.
Below is an blow-up of the 1909 MPL Die2 coin pictured in this thread. These obverse die lines are the " identifying marker" for this coin. Also a Die 1 coin showing die lines running along and above the nose.

>>



Brian,
Good information. My 1909 MPL is obverse Die 1, the same as my 1909VDB MPL. My 1909 MPL is also reverse Die 1 with the die chips at 3 and 9 o'clock. Your identification of a second obverse and reverse die links with what Leonard Albrecht reported in his 1982 study in the ANA pamphlet however your description photos and his description and photos of the obverse and reverse Die 2's are different. One other point is that 680, not only 200, were delivered to the coiner on December 8th and December 24th. Obviously, we don't know when the new obverse and reverse Die 2's were actually put into production so it is entirely possible that the Die 2's are 10 times rarer than die 1's.
I have relied on Albrecht's data thru the years but I also note that Kevin Flynn comments in his Matte Proof book that Die 2's for the 1909 MPL have not been verified from Albrecht's descriptions. Your finding that 36 of the 40 1909 MPL's pictured in Coin Facts are Die pair 1's is very convincing. It is a very interesting study and I do think we need to get more data about these die 2's and whether there might be some die 3's out there too.
Steve >>



Thanks for the feedback Steve,

One big advantage we have today over a 1982 study is the internet. We are able to see many coin images that were unavailable to those researcher's, of 30 years ago. I have seen hundreds of 1909 MPL cents, via bourse floors, current online auctions, past auction records, coinfacts images, dealers online listings, etc. Until something different appears, I feel these are the 2 obverse and reverse dies that made the 1909 Matte Proof cents.

Here is what Ron Guth, Pres of coinfacts wrote about this coin. Found this in coinfacts.

Ron Guth: In April 2010, Brian Wagner and Kevin Flynn announced the discovery of a new, second die pair used to strike Matte Proof Lincoln cents in 1909. The new die pair exhibits the following characteristics:

Obverse:
◦Heavy die scratch from left bottom of N of IN to center of N.
◦Several vertical die scratches above IN GOD.
◦Several small die scratches between GO of GOD.
◦Several small die scratches in field below second T of TRUST.
◦Heavy die scratch from left bottom of T of LIBERTY through the R.

Reverse: ◦Die scratch from M of UNUM left into the field above E of ONE.
◦Horizontal die scratch in field to the right of the C of CENT.
◦Die scratch from the center of E to the N of CENT.
◦Die scratch through the middle of UN of UNITED.
◦Small over large TE of UNITED.
◦Die scratch through the lower TAT of STATES.
◦Die chip next to the rim at 3 o'clock.


Because of the rarity of this die pair in a year that has been studied intensively by numismatists, Wagner and Flynn believe this was a die pair used in December 1909 to produce 180 Proof coins to either finish Proof sets for this year or to satisfy collector demand.

It will be interesting to see how quickly [after June 14, 2010] additional examples will be discovered now that this die pair is known.

Steve

Brian,
Thanks for your update. You are correct that we have so much better ability today to discover and report on information than 30 years ago. Coin Facts is the best source today because it eliminates what the print media can't do. That is update information in real time. I should have reviewed Ron's detail in Coin Facts under the 1909 MPL listing. I can see now how you looked at the close-ups of the 40 True Views for this issue and determined that only 4 were in agreement with your diagnostics for Die #2. My coin is one of the 36 Die #1's you saw. As additional True Views of 1909 MPL's get added to the Coin Facts listing, a clearer determination of just how rare the Die #2 is should emerge.
Steve

BWRC

Steve,

Thanks for the reply.

I think we are in agreement here.

Brian

cohodk

All 6 of the 09s I had were Die #1.

magikbilly

Hello,

Are the differences in the folds and flaps of Lincoln's jacket between the two dies just an artifact of the lighting?

Thanks

Eric