<< <i>The only ones that are going to be fooled in the future, are the ignorant, just as they are fooled today. I like them, but haters are going to hate. >>
I find that to be an ignorant statement. The ones that will be "fooled" will likely be the UNINFORMED, not necessarily ignorant.
It's more ignorant to just turn a blindeye and blame others for not knowing something they shouldn't necessarily have to know, all because someone wanted to make some extra bucks. >>
That is one of the meanings of ignorant, uninformed.
Joe. >>
Yes, however, there are more connotations to "ignorant" than just "uninformed". I feel that, given how many people have defended these counterfeit/fantasy pieces, that they deem anyone not into the hobby who purchases them, and maybe doesn't due enough work to try to hunt down info, as ignorant in the sense of being stupid or willfully uninformed to the point of deserving to be ripped off.
As someone who HAS had a friend taken, thankfully for not much money, by "fantasy" pieces (not carr's, thank god), I feel the elitist attitude come out from some of our posters and hope they can think about both sides and that it isn't necessarily that someone is stupid when they call them ignorant.
<< <i>Gee, I wonder what would happen if someone tried to spend one. Say a 1975-D Kennedy half? >>
He would lose a lot of money because they are worth far more than face value. >>
So, the loss of money is what makes something ok or not ok? What about if the above does happen (say, someone with them passes away, the heirs know nothing and decide to spend them)? What if they are held and questioned as a clerk recognizes that that date didn't exist, but doesn't know about carr, and so calls the cops/feds? It's ok that an innocent person is screwed over for awhile? Nice, PerryHall, real nice reasoning. If "copy" were on them, then it shouldn't be a problem at all, right?
Doesn't matter that something hasn't happened yet. These are still "new"/"young". Give it a few years. But, since it isn't likely to happen to YOU, it is ok, right? That's the gist I read from many of the supporters. Greed and the fact that it won't happen to them.
Those that tell other people what they should and should not collect also leave a bad taste in my mouth, especially when highlighting theoretical harm while ignoring and actively facilitating actual harm (avoidance of doctoring issue where people are actually misled and lose money). >>
Get off the high horse, no one is telling people what to collect and what not to. Collecting counterfeits is a long accepted niche in the hobby. We are asking people not to create counterfeits in the first place. And to infer that the ones of us that think the coins are bogus have a passive attitude towards doctoring or dealers taking advantage of novice collectors is laughable. Your perspective is shaded by a lack of comprehension of the hobby, market and the applicable laws and appear to be solely formed by your opinion.
<< <i>Even I had to think about it for a second if there was a quarter minted in 1933. >>
If you get one of these dangerous counterfeit 1933 quarters in change, I'll buy it from you so you won't feel cheated. Heck, I'll even pay for shipping.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Those that tell other people what they should and should not collect also leave a bad taste in my mouth, especially when highlighting theoretical harm while ignoring and actively facilitating actual harm (avoidance of doctoring issue where people are actually misled and lose money). >>
Get off the high horse, no one is telling people what to collect and what not to. Collecting counterfeits is a long accepted niche in the hobby. We are asking people not to create counterfeits in the first place. And to infer that the ones of us that think the coins are bogus have a passive attitude towards doctoring or dealers taking advantage of novice collectors is laughable. Your perspective is shaded by a lack of comprehension of the hobby, market and the applicable laws and appear to be solely formed by your opinion. >>
First of all, it is not established these are counterfeits. Many people, including myself, have read the laws and believe these are legal.
Second, Laura and others have tried to stop doctoring. In many other industries, people that mislead are discussed openly. This appears to be different in coin collecting where discussion is actively discouraged.
Third, your view seems to be based on your opinion as well. Stating these pieces are definitively counterfeits when no authority has said so makes it hard to rely on your views.
These pieces exist, are sold, haven't misled people yet, and haven't been been ruled as counterfeit by any authority. To say they are definitively counterfeit seems a bit disingenuous.
It's unfortunate these pieces are so polarizing but it is what it is.
It used to be legal to own 1933 double eagles. Until it wasn't. There's a fable about a goose and some golden eggs. Maybe it could be illustrative here. Maybe not.
Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls , mads and nomads alike… Please turn to page 175 in your 2013 Edition of the Official Red Book. (edit to add: that's the spiral bound 66th edition) Focus your attention on the population of the 1933 Washington Quarter.
This is an excellent opportunity to promote the Red Book as the unofficial guide to United States Coins. Anyone have a 1934 S Washington Quarter ?
<< <i> Anyone have a 1934 S Washington Quarter ? >>
Ask Dan to make one. >>
Technically, that would be possible. But I'm only doing dates that don't exist - not date & mint mark combinations that don't exist. The only exception to that rule was the 2009 "proofed" Silver Eagles. Since the date (2009) already existed in the Silver Eagle series, I implemented two obvious features: proof-like finish and large "DC" mint mark. Note that those were struck over non-proof genuine 2009 Silver Eagles, and no proof Silver Eagles were produced in 2009, and no coins have ever been produced by the US Mint with a "DC" mint mark.
Well all this is very interesting. It is also great free advertising for DC and will most likely increase sales for him especially before the holidays. If copies, reproductions and fantasy items are to be made completely illegal in our what is supposed to be free society, we will be with out many products we now enjoy. Do you or your family eat bologna, well unless you are buying the product from Bologna it is an unmarked copy, do you eat mozzarella cheese, if it is not made of buffalo milk and made in southern Italy it is a non-authentic copy and what are you going to do if it is unmarked and someone buys it at the market? If you want some one to have total control of every aspect of your life things in this country are going to be 10000000s of times worse kind of like in North Korea or china where a conversation like this is against the law and when caught you are likely to be arrested and turned into a plasticized body. I for one am thankful some one made a copy/reproduction of a heard valve from the paradisaical lining of a bovine Heart allowing me to be here for my wife and children......
<< <i>Gee, I wonder what would happen if someone tried to spend one. Say a 1975-D Kennedy half? >>
He would lose a lot of money because they are worth far more than face value. >>
So, the loss of money is what makes something ok or not ok? What about if the above does happen (say, someone with them passes away, the heirs know nothing and decide to spend them)? What if they are held and questioned as a clerk recognizes that that date didn't exist, but doesn't know about carr, and so calls the cops/feds? It's ok that an innocent person is screwed over for awhile? Nice, PerryHall, real nice reasoning. If "copy" were on them, then it shouldn't be a problem at all, right? >>
<< <i>Doesn't matter that something hasn't happened yet. These are still "new"/"young". Give it a few years. But, since it isn't likely to happen to YOU, it is ok, right? That's the gist I read from many of the supporters. Greed and the fact that it won't happen to them. >>
1) People have been detained when attempting to spend legitimate $2 bills and other older bills. Is it ok to knowingly pay someone with an older bill, knowing that the person may be detained when trying to spend it later on ?
2) One of these, even WITH a "COPY" stamp, was found in circulation. The recipient of it emailed me. I told them it was worth about $10 and that I would buy if for that. They said they would rather keep it: Note that this is an item that I designed (Washington DC side only), but did not engrave, mint, or distribute. Also note that this item is NOT an over-strike.
3) If you took in a Liberty Dollar circulating at face value, there is a good chance that it is worth more than that now.
<< <i>If copies, reproductions and fantasy items are to be made completely illegal in our what is supposed to be free society, we will be with out many products we now enjoy. >>
Nobody here has advocated making copies, reproductions and fantasy items completely illegal, but aside from that...
<< <i>Gee, I wonder what would happen if someone tried to spend one. Say a 1975-D Kennedy half? >>
He would lose a lot of money because they are worth far more than face value. >>
So, the loss of money is what makes something ok or not ok? What about if the above does happen (say, someone with them passes away, the heirs know nothing and decide to spend them)? What if they are held and questioned as a clerk recognizes that that date didn't exist, but doesn't know about carr, and so calls the cops/feds? It's ok that an innocent person is screwed over for awhile? Nice, PerryHall, real nice reasoning. If "copy" were on them, then it shouldn't be a problem at all, right? >>
<< <i>Doesn't matter that something hasn't happened yet. These are still "new"/"young". Give it a few years. But, since it isn't likely to happen to YOU, it is ok, right? That's the gist I read from many of the supporters. Greed and the fact that it won't happen to them. >>
1) People have been detained when attempting to spend legitimate $2 bills and other older bills. Is it ok to knowingly pay someone with an older bill, knowing that the person may be detained when trying to spend it later on ?
2) One of these, even WITH a "COPY" stamp, was found in circulation. The recipient of it emailed me. I told them it was worth about $10 and that I would buy if for that. They said they would rather keep it: Note that this is an item that I designed (Washington DC side only), but did not engrave, mint, or distribute. Also note that this item is NOT an over-strike.
3) If you took in a Liberty Dollar circulating at face value, there is a good chance that it is worth more than that now.
These four actual situations illustrate that many of the arguments presented throughout this thread are hypothetically and selectively applied. >>
1) You are really stretching here.....yes, of course it is ok because the item was/is legitimate currency and the expectation is that it will be received as such. Pretty poor example by you, imho.
2) So what if you offered to pay more than face value. It was spent, and shouldn't have been accepted for currency. If someone wanted to trade/buy it from the person, then fine, but it shouldn't have been accepted. It is NOT real money. As a play money item, then fine, but not real spendable monies. Again, another poor example which just illustrates the other side of your point about selectivity being applied.....when supporters state no one will spend them/accept them. Obviously, it happens/happened.
3) Yes. It *MAY* be worth more, but it isn't legitimate US approved currency/coin. Therefore, if it is attempted to be passed off that way, someone is in the wrong. If it was taken, knowingly, in trade for some value, then that is up to the person accepting it. Again, I do not think this adds anything positive to your argument.
4) Same thing....the fact that the value is worth more than the face value does not mean it is legit. Someone counterfeited the item and passed it off.
Dan - sometimes you have valid arguments for things. In the above cases, at least to me, you failed. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck. No matter the value being higher/lower...it isn't real and shouldn't be something that could be taken as being real and used in a real way.
One argument That I am seeing very often its that the word copy be applied to the 1933 Quarter that DC made. Would that not confuse people more thinking that there are real 1933 Quarters. I state this because the word copy denotes that something is being copied. On this 1933 quarter what was copied considering one never existed? I have had plenty of bullion that is a copy of a real coin and did not and does not contain the word copy on it. Do all of these need to be pukked from the market too, so as to not confuse someone who is not all knowing and is just a layman in the numismatic world? It is imposable to protect every person from making a mistake, that is why we have free will, it allows us to make our own decision whether informed or not. Let the police police it is their job. I live in Wisconsin and we have many buildings designed by Frank Lloyd Wright and because of his designs a movement was created and some very beautiful buildings have been created by others in his style should those all be stamped with copy on the front door?
<< <i>1) You are really stretching here.....yes, of course it is ok because the item was/is legitimate currency and the expectation is that it will be received as such. Pretty poor example by you, imho. >>
It is a fact that people have been detained for attempting to spend genuine currency. The point here is that any "damages" to the person being detained were due to the ignorance of the cashier, and were not the fault of the person that previously spent the bill.
<< <i>2) So what if you offered to pay more than face value. It was spent, and shouldn't have been accepted for currency. If someone wanted to trade/buy it from the person, then fine, but it shouldn't have been accepted. It is NOT real money. As a play money item, then fine, but not real spendable monies. Again, another poor example which just illustrates the other side of your point about selectivity being applied.....when supporters state no one will spend them/accept them. Obviously, it happens/happened. >>
A "COPY" stamp on a coin will not prevent it from entering circulation. It is incorrect to assume that if I put "COPY" on my altered (over-struck) coins, that would automatically prevent them from entering circulation. And if if someone does end up paying face value for a copy or altered coin, it may very well be worth more than face value.
<< <i>3) Yes. It *MAY* be worth more, but it isn't legitimate US approved currency/coin. Therefore, if it is attempted to be passed off that way, someone is in the wrong. If it was taken, knowingly, in trade for some value, then that is up to the person accepting it. Again, I do not think this adds anything positive to your argument.
4) Same thing....the fact that the value is worth more than the face value does not mean it is legit. Someone counterfeited the item and passed it off. >>
The question should be, what damage has been done in these two cases ? The recipients were not financially harmed. The only potential damage is a very slight dilution of the currency because these items entered circulation at face value but were not legally monetized as US money. In contrast, when I create my over-strikes, the general currency is NOT diluted because I "consume" an equal amount of legal tender (the over-struck items have the same apparent face value that they had before the over-striking).
<< <i>Dan - sometimes you have valid arguments for things. In the above cases, at least to me, you failed. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck. No matter the value being higher/lower...it isn't real and shouldn't be something that could be taken as being real and used in a real way. >>
You are making the potentially flawed case that an over-struck coin is no longer legal tender. I'm not claiming that it is. But what evidence do you have that an over-struck coin is no longer legal tender ?
<< <i> You are making the potentially flawed case that an over-struck coin is no longer legal tender. I'm not claiming that it is. But what evidence do you have that an over-struck coin is no longer legal tender ? >>
I'll delete and ignore the other portions as you will never see any potential damages nor harm to anyone, because it benefits you NOT to do so. This is your job and how you make money, and I understand that. Same as those guys in China.
For the last piece, if it isn't proven TO be true, then one is not necessarily incorrect to operate under the assumption that it is not true. Unless, and until, an official representative from the US Government (one of the mints or secret service, I would hope) puts out an official status that says what you produce, as over-strikes, is legitimate, then I only know my own thoughts on them. I put them in the same class as what is coming out of China. You may use the same materials as originally done, instead of just some other base metal, but I feel they are in the same boat. I view what comes out of China as "fantasy" as well.
I have, as I have stated before, personally seen a friend get tricked due to coins that weren't "real". If he were into numismatics, he would hopefully have known better. If he had thought he was getting ripped off, maybe he would have looked things up. As it was, it was a quick decision, not a lot of money (thankfully), and nothing that he could have done with any knowledge assistance at that time. Obviously, you do this because you like to, and also because you make money from it. People buy them because (many of the people) want to make money too, so they buy and sell them. A lot of it is all about the money; in more ways than one.
I hadn't wanted to stay out of the thread, but people calling others "ignorant", and somewhat obviously in a very negative way, or putting any potential blame on someone who didn't know better, drew me in. My post obviously hit close to home for you on it and so you jumped in to defend them, as they are a large source of funds to you, obviously.
Get that official declaration from someone in the government who can legitimately supply it, and I will purchase some from you. Until then, Colorado or China, the products are too similar.
<< <i>I'll delete and ignore the other portions as you will never see any potential damages nor harm to anyone, because it benefits you NOT to do so. This is your job and how you make money, and I understand that. Same as those guys in China. >>
The "guys" in China and their re-sellers are making a deliberate attempt to deceive. They even used image trickery to fake the "REPLICA" stamp. This stamp appeared on internet images, but many of the coins came without it. They make fake PCGS slabs and try to pass them off as legitimate. They do not publish diagnostics, mintages, or any other information about their items. So when you say I am the "same as the guys in China", that is very false.
<< <i>For the last piece, if it isn't proven TO be true, then one is not necessarily incorrect to operate under the assumption that it is not true. Unless, and until, an official representative from the US Government (one of the mints or secret service, I would hope) puts out an official status that says what you produce, as over-strikes, is legitimate, then I only know my own thoughts on them. I put them in the same class as what is coming out of China. You may use the same materials as originally done, instead of just some other base metal, but I feel they are in the same boat. I view what comes out of China as "fantasy" as well. >>
Coin World specifically asked the Secret Service about my "1964-D" Peace Dollar over-strikes. Coin World was told that they (the Secret Service) does not interpret laws for the public. The Secret Service suggested that Coin World contact the US Attorney office in the region where the activity (over-striking) was being performed. When I contacted the Denver US Attorney office, their spokesperson told me that they do not render legal opinons for the public, and that I would have to hire a lawyer on my own. I consulted with one, but there was practically no precedence for this situation and no way to evaluate it. But a coin that has been mutilated to such an extent that none of the original details are visible can generally still be redeemed at face value if the US Treasury can verify it based on the weight, diameter, thickness, and metallic composition.
You said "(I) may use the same materials as originally done, instead of just some other base metal". A point of clarification: I don't just use the original "materials". I use the original coins themselves and over-strike them without heating or melting, and without adding or removing any metal.
<< <i>I have, as I have stated before, personally seen a friend get tricked due to coins that weren't "real". If he were into numismatics, he would hopefully have known better. If he had thought he was getting ripped off, maybe he would have looked things up. As it was, it was a quick decision, not a lot of money (thankfully), and nothing that he could have done with any knowledge assistance at that time. Obviously, you do this because you like to, and also because you make money from it. People buy them because (many of the people) want to make money too, so they buy and sell them. A lot of it is all about the money; in more ways than one. >>
I've seen people lose a lot of money on polished and cleaned coins over the years, far more than all other types of alteration and fakery combined. Slabbing of coins has reduced that problem significantly. If there is one thing to teach a novice, it is to stick to certified coins until they are no longer novices. This is why I am in favor of certifying over-struck coins for what they are.
Of course, a lot of people buy the over-struck coins simply because they like them, not because they want to re-sell them. One of the largest Denver area coin shops has a "1964-D" over-struck Peace Dollar on display. The long-time owner of the shop tells me a lot of people want to buy it, but he likes it and wants to keep it on display.
<< <i>... Get that official declaration from someone in the government who can legitimately supply it, and I will purchase some from you. Until then, Colorado or China, the products are too similar. >>
"Colorado or China, the products are too similar"
Andy Warhol painted a Campbell's soup can label. The label and the painting are very similar. But now that painting is worth many millions of dollars. Why ? Because the artist is iconic, famous, and controversial. So the context is important in the value. A "coin" stamped on junk metal, in large quantities, by an anonymous Chinese "worker", with no published information as to the diagnostics, characteristics, or mintages, is not the same as a piece made by a known American artist who designed actual US coins, produced in a known quantity, with published diagnostics, using surplus US Mint equipment.
One argument That I am seeing very often its that the word copy be applied to the 1933 Quarter that DC made. Would that not confuse people more thinking that there are real 1933 Quarters. I state this because the word copy denotes that something is being copied. On this 1933 quarter what was copied considering one never existed?
I think "FAKE" is the more appropriate word that should be required to be put on the "1933 Quarter."
I can't imagine a date-mintmark collector of Washington Quarters wanting one of these to put between his/her authentic '32's and '34's.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I can agree with a marking of fake but not copy because it is not a copy or how about designating it a token..... gnight all plesant dreams and remember tomorrow is a future you help create whether bad good or otherwise.....
<< <i>I can agree with a marking of fake but not copy because it is not a copy or how about designating it a token..... gnight all plesant dreams and remember tomorrow is a future you help create whether bad good or otherwise..... >>
ANACS certifies them as a "Token" and an over-strike ("O/S").
<< <i>I can't imagine a date-mintmark collector of Washington Quarters wanting one of these to put between his/her authentic '32's and '34's. >>
Perhaps not. But there do seem to be people that want them regardless. I could see someone putting one in an empty undated hole at the end of the album.
<< <i>A few questions for DCarr, How many each of these fantasy 1933 Washington will be pressed ? ... >>
>>> How many each of these fantasy 1933 Washington will be pressed ?
That is undetermined. Final quantities of other fantasy-date over-strike coins that I have produced in the past range from about 60 to about 2,000. Most were less than 400.
<< <i>I can agree with a marking of fake but not copy because it is not a copy or how about designating it a token..... gnight all plesant dreams and remember tomorrow is a future you help create whether bad good or otherwise..... >>
ANACS certifies them as a "Token" and an over-strike ("O/S"). >>
ICG graded and slabbed my Dan Carr 1964-D Peace dollars with the Fantasy Overstrike designation on the label so at least two grading services recognize them as being legitimate numismatic items.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>A few questions for DCarr, How many each of these fantasy 1933 Washington will be pressed ? ... >>
>>> How many each of these fantasy 1933 Washington will be pressed ?
That is undetermined. Final quantities of other fantasy-date over-strike coins that I have produced in the past range from about 60 to about 2,000. Most were less than 400. >>
Dan---Do these threads help your sales of these numismatic items? Just curious if there is an up-tick in orders when the CU Debating Society generates these long winded threads.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Dan---Do these threads help your sales of these numismatic items? Just curious if there is an up-tick in orders when the CU Debating Society generates these long winded threads. >>
It does appear that there is an uptick in activity when discussions here are ongoing.
<< <i>Dan---Do these threads help your sales of these numismatic items? Just curious if there is an up-tick in orders when the CU Debating Society generates these long winded threads. >>
It does appear that there is an uptick in activity when discussions here are ongoing. >>
It's quite ironic that your detractors are helping your business.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
my questions always seem to go unanswered but I'll ask another one anyway.....................to DC specifically this time.
several members have made reference to your "artistic" ability and the beauty of the products you produce, yet they are really no more than copies of another's work. after having worked as a Machinist/Tool and Die maker for close to 30 years I view you as "skilled" and assume that a person such as me, once acquainted with the machinery required to make the product you sell, could do the same quality work. however, I doubt I could ever produce an original work of art which might be viewed in the same manner as these copies. understanding your limited success of the past regarding US coin design and your other original work, why do you choose to focus on what amounts to plagiarism instead of moving forward to improve your artistic skill and focus your talent on original work??
from what I have seen I am left to infer that the "original" work finds no market to sell into, at least not a market that will sustain itself, while the "overstrike" market(at the PCGS forums) flourishes and carries an incentive to continue. it strikes me sort of like the Starving Artist type of pictures where a guy can't make anything that will hang in a gallery but can do all sorts of stuff that will hang over a living room couch. perhaps a bad analogy but one supported by the evidence at hand.
ICG graded and slabbed my Dan Carr 1964-D Peace dollars with the Fantasy Overstrike designation on the label so at least two grading services recognize them as being legitimate numismatic items.
Perry, you have to know that those "grading services" are currently not much higher than laughing stock. heck, I could take a punch-out from an electric box with a design scratched on it and they'd encapsulate the thing. try this-----drive to the Post Office and mail one to PCGS, the package might beat you back to your house. asking those services to slab these does nothing to legitimize them from my perspective, it probably does the opposite, but it was a nice try and good for a laugh.
<< <i>my questions always seem to go unanswered but I'll ask another one anyway.....................to DC specifically this time.
several members have made reference to your "artistic" ability and the beauty of the products you produce, yet they are really no more than copies of another's work. after having worked as a Machinist/Tool and Die maker for close to 30 years I view you as "skilled" and assume that a person such as me, once acquainted with the machinery required to make the product you sell, could do the same quality work. however, I doubt I could ever produce an original work of art which might be viewed in the same manner as these copies. understanding your limited success of the past regarding US coin design and your other original work, why do you choose to focus on what amounts to plagiarism instead of moving forward to improve your artistic skill and focus your talent on original work??
from what I have seen I am left to infer that the "original" work finds no market to sell into, at least not a market that will sustain itself, while the "overstrike" market(at the PCGS forums) flourishes and carries an incentive to continue. it strikes me sort of like the Starving Artist type of pictures where a guy can't make anything that will hang in a gallery but can do all sorts of stuff that will hang over a living room couch. perhaps a bad analogy but one supported by the evidence at hand. >>
I'm interested as well in your answer to this post Dan.
<< <i>ICG graded and slabbed my Dan Carr 1964-D Peace dollars with the Fantasy Overstrike designation on the label so at least two grading services recognize them as being legitimate numismatic items.
Perry, you have to know that those "grading services" are currently not much higher than laughing stock. heck, I could take a punch-out from an electric box with a design scratched on it and they'd encapsulate the thing. try this-----drive to the Post Office and mail one to PCGS, the package might beat you back to your house. asking those services to slab these does nothing to legitimize them from my perspective, it probably does the opposite, but it was a nice try and good for a laugh. >>
I was wondering how long before one of the Kool-Aid crowd would come on to denigrate ANACS and ICG. Thanks for not disappointing me.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I'm not denigrating ICG and ANACS insomuch as I'm only stating what the marketplace, this forum and even you tend to believe. that belief is well documented. to your point of Koolaid, it's not worth discussing. have a nice day.
Hmmm, seems there have been a lot of posts about how much people like ANACS slabbed coins, at least in terms of crossing over.
A good assignment Keets, IMO, would be to take one of his Oregon Commems (Dan's) and look at it next to an original US Mint struck specimen. Does it hold up? Is it artistic?
Well, also IMO, it does nicely. His coins/tokens are a bit of fun, not necessarily for everybody but very nice and numismata that are well appreciated by many.
Also, I've an idea: how about you test your skills up against Dan's and put the results up for us to judge? Your win would well support your position…Or vice versa..
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
Hey Keets it makes me wounder what could be done with a 5-Axis FA Machining Center with the proper bits. The investment would be costly for someone not in the industry. Do you have access to a mill that could properly produce a Token like D.C.s ? It would be interesting to see what someone very familiar with CNC programing could accomplish. After D.C.s makes one of his Fantasy tokens (not copies because they did not exist previously) he could mill into the surface Fantasy Token and that would not damage the production
fake fÄk/ noun: fake; plural noun: fakes 1.a thing that is not genuine. I do not believe this term applies as D.C.s works do not exist prior to his producing them.
cop·yˈkäpē/noun: copy; plural noun: copies 1. a thing made to be similar or identical to another. This is close in that they are similar to other numismatic items but are not an exact copy.
Would all tokens therefore be considered fakes or copies because they were not minted by the U.S. mint? If this is true of D.C.s Tokens then should all tokens be treated this way or is he only being singled out for this treatment? I ask this because I like tokens and find them immensely creative JMHO.
I love Dan's creations and have purchased many of them, however I feel he is leaving a very large market on the shelf untouched.
By this I mean in addition to the "FANTASY" restrike of older coins,,,, coins from 35, 50 or even 100 years in the past I would like to see "FUTURE FANTASY" strikes of coins 100 years in the FUTURE.
I suggest a coin to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Chelsea Clinton as the 1st woman to be elected as President of the United States. It would be on a Sacagawea Dollar planchet and then when I pull this coin dated 2114 out of my pocket and show it to my family and neighbors they will finally realize that that big black steel box with 50,000 volts of 3 phase power I built in the back yard really is the time machine that I told everyone it is. The coin dated 100 years in the future would PROVE that I went forward in time and brought back the coin.
<< <i>I love Dan's creations and have purchased many of them, however I feel he is leaving a very large market on the shelf untouched.
By this I mean in addition to the "FANTASY" restrike of older coins,,,, coins from 35, 50 or even 100 years in the past I would like to see "FUTURE FANTASY" strikes of coins 100 years in the FUTURE.
I suggest a coin to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Chelsea Clinton as the 1st woman to be elected as President of the United States. It would be on a Sacagawea Dollar planchet and then when I pull this coin dated 2114 out of my pocket and show it to my family and neighbors they will finally realize that that big black steel box with 50,000 volts of 3 phase power I built in the back yard really is the time machine that I told everyone it is. The coin dated 100 years in the future would PROVE that I went forward in time and brought back the coin.
GrandAm >>
Even though that black steel box supplies 50kv across 3 phases it's still missing a flux capacitor which is a must for time travel . At work I do a lot of primary splicing on 3 phase 27kv that is capable of powering all of NY so you can imagine the amperage it can deliver. I'm still in need of a flux capacitor to use all that power to time travel though .
Would all tokens therefore be considered fakes or copies because they were not minted by the U.S. mint? If this is true of D.C.s Tokens then should all tokens be treated this way or is he only being singled out for this treatment? I ask this because I like tokens and find them immensely creative
Is the single,only one known,1959 Wheat cent a token?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>I love Dan's creations and have purchased many of them, however I feel he is leaving a very large market on the shelf untouched.
By this I mean in addition to the "FANTASY" restrike of older coins,,,, coins from 35, 50 or even 100 years in the past I would like to see "FUTURE FANTASY" strikes of coins 100 years in the FUTURE.
I suggest a coin to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Chelsea Clinton as the 1st woman to be elected as President of the United States. It would be on a Sacagawea Dollar planchet and then when I pull this coin dated 2114 out of my pocket and show it to my family and neighbors they will finally realize that that big black steel box with 50,000 volts of 3 phase power I built in the back yard really is the time machine that I told everyone it is. The coin dated 100 years in the future would PROVE that I went forward in time and brought back the coin.
GrandAm >>
Even though that black steel box supplies 50kv across 3 phases it's still missing a flux capacitor which is a must for time travel . At work I do a lot of primary splicing on 3 phase 27kv that is capable of powering all of NY so you can imagine the amperage it can deliver. I'm still in need of a flux capacitor to use all that power to time travel though . >>
It occurs to me that I would be alot more comfortable with pieces such as this 1933 Quarter being out there if there was a requirement to stamp a distinct mintmark on the piece where a mintmark would appear if the piece were an authentic US mint product.
"DC" mintmark on the reverse right above "QUARTER DOLLAR" would work to clearly identify the item as a token and would also be great advertising for the maker.
All such pieces,no matter who makes them,would need a distinct mintmark totally different from the mintmarks used by the mint.
For example,simply using a "D" for "Dan" wouldn't comply with my new law because the Denver Mint uses this letter.I'm talking distinctly different and thinking a recall of the "1933 Quarter" would be in order once my law goes into effect.Leaving a mintmark off the "coin" is not an option,in other words.
"CC" would even work for the "1933 Quarter" as distinctly different since everyone knows the last Carson City coins were struck in 1893.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>It occurs to me that I would be alot more comfortable with pieces such as this 1933 Quarter being out there if there was a requirement to stamp a distinct mintmark on the piece where a mintmark would appear if the piece were an authentic US mint product.
"DC" mintmark on the reverse right above "QUARTER DOLLAR" would work to clearly identify the item as a token and would also be great advertising for the maker.
All such pieces,no matter who makes them,would need a distinct mintmark totally different from the mintmarks used by the mint.
For example,simply using a "D" for "Dan" wouldn't comply with my new law because the Denver Mint uses this letter.I'm talking distinctly different and thinking a recall of the "1933 Quarter" would be in order once my law goes into effect.Leaving a mintmark off the "coin" is not an option,in other words.
"CC" would even work for the "1933 Quarter" as distinctly different since everyone knows the last Carson City coins were struck in 1893. >>
If you are not smart enough to realize the US minted never made a 1933 quarter, you probably would not be smart enough to know the mint mark represents a mint that did not mint the 1933 quarter.
Exactly what does fake mean?
When does a US coin become not a US coin?
Should we ban hobo nickels as they are the same thing?
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
<< <i>I love Dan's creations and have purchased many of them, however I feel he is leaving a very large market on the shelf untouched.
By this I mean in addition to the "FANTASY" restrike of older coins,,,, coins from 35, 50 or even 100 years in the past I would like to see "FUTURE FANTASY" strikes of coins 100 years in the FUTURE.
I suggest a coin to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Chelsea Clinton as the 1st woman to be elected as President of the United States. It would be on a Sacagawea Dollar planchet and then when I pull this coin dated 2114 out of my pocket and show it to my family and neighbors they will finally realize that that big black steel box with 50,000 volts of 3 phase power I built in the back yard really is the time machine that I told everyone it is. The coin dated 100 years in the future would PROVE that I went forward in time and brought back the coin.
GrandAm >>
Even though that black steel box supplies 50kv across 3 phases it's still missing a flux capacitor which is a must for time travel . At work I do a lot of primary splicing on 3 phase 27kv that is capable of powering all of NY so you can imagine the amperage it can deliver. I'm still in need of a flux capacitor to use all that power to time travel though . >>
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The only ones that are going to be fooled in the future, are the ignorant, just as they are fooled today. I like them, but haters are going to hate. >>
I find that to be an ignorant statement.
The ones that will be "fooled" will likely be the UNINFORMED, not necessarily ignorant.
It's more ignorant to just turn a blindeye and blame others for not knowing something they shouldn't necessarily have to know, all because someone wanted to make some extra bucks. >>
That is one of the meanings of ignorant, uninformed.
Joe. >>
Yes, however, there are more connotations to "ignorant" than just "uninformed". I feel that, given how many people have defended these counterfeit/fantasy pieces, that they deem anyone not into the hobby who purchases them, and maybe doesn't due enough work to try to hunt down info, as ignorant in the sense of being stupid or willfully uninformed to the point of deserving to be ripped off.
As someone who HAS had a friend taken, thankfully for not much money, by "fantasy" pieces (not carr's, thank god), I feel the elitist attitude come out from some of our posters and hope they can think about both sides and that it isn't necessarily that someone is stupid when they call them ignorant.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>Gee, I wonder what would happen if someone tried to spend one. Say a 1975-D Kennedy half?
He would lose a lot of money because they are worth far more than face value. >>
So, the loss of money is what makes something ok or not ok?
What about if the above does happen (say, someone with them passes away, the heirs know nothing and decide to spend them)? What if they are held and questioned as a clerk recognizes that that date didn't exist, but doesn't know about carr, and so calls the cops/feds? It's ok that an innocent person is screwed over for awhile? Nice, PerryHall, real nice reasoning. If "copy" were on them, then it shouldn't be a problem at all, right?
Doesn't matter that something hasn't happened yet. These are still "new"/"young". Give it a few years. But, since it isn't likely to happen to YOU, it is ok, right? That's the gist I read from many of the supporters. Greed and the fact that it won't happen to them.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
Those that tell other people what they should and should not collect also leave a bad taste in my mouth, especially when highlighting theoretical harm while ignoring and actively facilitating actual harm (avoidance of doctoring issue where people are actually misled and lose money).
>>
Get off the high horse, no one is telling people what to collect and what not to. Collecting counterfeits is a long accepted niche in the hobby. We are asking people not to create counterfeits in the first place. And to infer that the ones of us that think the coins are bogus have a passive attitude towards doctoring or dealers taking advantage of novice collectors is laughable. Your perspective is shaded by a lack of comprehension of the hobby, market and the applicable laws and appear to be solely formed by your opinion.
<< <i>Even I had to think about it for a second if there was a quarter minted in 1933. >>
If you get one of these dangerous counterfeit 1933 quarters in change, I'll buy it from you so you won't feel cheated. Heck, I'll even pay for shipping.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
Those that tell other people what they should and should not collect also leave a bad taste in my mouth, especially when highlighting theoretical harm while ignoring and actively facilitating actual harm (avoidance of doctoring issue where people are actually misled and lose money).
>>
Get off the high horse, no one is telling people what to collect and what not to. Collecting counterfeits is a long accepted niche in the hobby. We are asking people not to create counterfeits in the first place. And to infer that the ones of us that think the coins are bogus have a passive attitude towards doctoring or dealers taking advantage of novice collectors is laughable. Your perspective is shaded by a lack of comprehension of the hobby, market and the applicable laws and appear to be solely formed by your opinion. >>
First of all, it is not established these are counterfeits. Many people, including myself, have read the laws and believe these are legal.
Second, Laura and others have tried to stop doctoring. In many other industries, people that mislead are discussed openly. This appears to be different in coin collecting where discussion is actively discouraged.
Third, your view seems to be based on your opinion as well. Stating these pieces are definitively counterfeits when no authority has said so makes it hard to rely on your views.
These pieces exist, are sold, haven't misled people yet, and haven't been been ruled as counterfeit by any authority. To say they are definitively counterfeit seems a bit disingenuous.
It's unfortunate these pieces are so polarizing but it is what it is.
Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls , mads and nomads alike…
Please turn to page 175 in your 2013 Edition of the Official Red Book. (edit to add: that's the spiral bound 66th edition)
Focus your attention on the population of the 1933 Washington Quarter.
This is an excellent opportunity to promote the Red Book as the unofficial guide to United States Coins.
Anyone have a 1934 S Washington Quarter ?
<< <i>
Anyone have a 1934 S Washington Quarter ? >>
Ask Dan to make one.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Anyone have a 1934 S Washington Quarter ? >>
Ask Dan to make one. >>
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>
Anyone have a 1934 S Washington Quarter ? >>
Ask Dan to make one. >>
Technically, that would be possible.
But I'm only doing dates that don't exist - not date & mint mark combinations that don't exist.
The only exception to that rule was the 2009 "proofed" Silver Eagles. Since the date (2009) already existed in the Silver Eagle series, I implemented two obvious features: proof-like finish and large "DC" mint mark. Note that those were struck over non-proof genuine 2009 Silver Eagles, and no proof Silver Eagles were produced in 2009, and no coins have ever been produced by the US Mint with a "DC" mint mark.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Gee, I wonder what would happen if someone tried to spend one. Say a 1975-D Kennedy half?
He would lose a lot of money because they are worth far more than face value. >>
So, the loss of money is what makes something ok or not ok?
What about if the above does happen (say, someone with them passes away, the heirs know nothing and decide to spend them)? What if they are held and questioned as a clerk recognizes that that date didn't exist, but doesn't know about carr, and so calls the cops/feds? It's ok that an innocent person is screwed over for awhile? Nice, PerryHall, real nice reasoning. If "copy" were on them, then it shouldn't be a problem at all, right? >>
<< <i>Doesn't matter that something hasn't happened yet. These are still "new"/"young". Give it a few years. But, since it isn't likely to happen to YOU, it is ok, right? That's the gist I read from many of the supporters. Greed and the fact that it won't happen to them. >>
1)
People have been detained when attempting to spend legitimate $2 bills and other older bills. Is it ok to knowingly pay someone with an older bill, knowing that the person may be detained when trying to spend it later on ?
2)
One of these, even WITH a "COPY" stamp, was found in circulation. The recipient of it emailed me. I told them it was worth about $10 and that I would buy if for that. They said they would rather keep it:
Note that this is an item that I designed (Washington DC side only), but did not engrave, mint, or distribute. Also note that this item is NOT an over-strike.
3)
If you took in a Liberty Dollar circulating at face value, there is a good chance that it is worth more than that now.
4)
Was the person harmed who received this gold cent in change ?:
Brooklyn Woman Finds Counterfeit Penny Made of Gold
These four actual situations illustrate that many of the arguments presented throughout this thread are hypothetically and selectively applied.
<< <i>If copies, reproductions and fantasy items are to be made completely illegal in our what is supposed to be free society, we will be with out many products we now enjoy. >>
Nobody here has advocated making copies, reproductions and fantasy items completely illegal, but aside from that...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Gee, I wonder what would happen if someone tried to spend one. Say a 1975-D Kennedy half?
He would lose a lot of money because they are worth far more than face value. >>
So, the loss of money is what makes something ok or not ok?
What about if the above does happen (say, someone with them passes away, the heirs know nothing and decide to spend them)? What if they are held and questioned as a clerk recognizes that that date didn't exist, but doesn't know about carr, and so calls the cops/feds? It's ok that an innocent person is screwed over for awhile? Nice, PerryHall, real nice reasoning. If "copy" were on them, then it shouldn't be a problem at all, right? >>
<< <i>Doesn't matter that something hasn't happened yet. These are still "new"/"young". Give it a few years. But, since it isn't likely to happen to YOU, it is ok, right? That's the gist I read from many of the supporters. Greed and the fact that it won't happen to them. >>
1)
People have been detained when attempting to spend legitimate $2 bills and other older bills. Is it ok to knowingly pay someone with an older bill, knowing that the person may be detained when trying to spend it later on ?
2)
One of these, even WITH a "COPY" stamp, was found in circulation. The recipient of it emailed me. I told them it was worth about $10 and that I would buy if for that. They said they would rather keep it:
Note that this is an item that I designed (Washington DC side only), but did not engrave, mint, or distribute. Also note that this item is NOT an over-strike.
3)
If you took in a Liberty Dollar circulating at face value, there is a good chance that it is worth more than that now.
4)
Was the person harmed who received this gold cent in change ?:
Brooklyn Woman Finds Counterfeit Penny Made of Gold
These four actual situations illustrate that many of the arguments presented throughout this thread are hypothetically and selectively applied. >>
1) You are really stretching here.....yes, of course it is ok because the item was/is legitimate currency and the expectation is that it will be received as such. Pretty poor example by you, imho.
2) So what if you offered to pay more than face value. It was spent, and shouldn't have been accepted for currency. If someone wanted to trade/buy it from the person, then fine, but it shouldn't have been accepted. It is NOT real money. As a play money item, then fine, but not real spendable monies. Again, another poor example which just illustrates the other side of your point about selectivity being applied.....when supporters state no one will spend them/accept them. Obviously, it happens/happened.
3) Yes. It *MAY* be worth more, but it isn't legitimate US approved currency/coin. Therefore, if it is attempted to be passed off that way, someone is in the wrong. If it was taken, knowingly, in trade for some value, then that is up to the person accepting it. Again, I do not think this adds anything positive to your argument.
4) Same thing....the fact that the value is worth more than the face value does not mean it is legit. Someone counterfeited the item and passed it off.
Dan - sometimes you have valid arguments for things. In the above cases, at least to me, you failed. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck. No matter the value being higher/lower...it isn't real and shouldn't be something that could be taken as being real and used in a real way.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
4)
Was the person harmed who received this gold cent in change ?:
Brooklyn Woman Finds Counterfeit Penny Made of Gold >>
Very interesting read. First time I had seen this.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>1) You are really stretching here.....yes, of course it is ok because the item was/is legitimate currency and the expectation is that it will be received as such. Pretty poor example by you, imho. >>
It is a fact that people have been detained for attempting to spend genuine currency. The point here is that any "damages" to the person being detained were due to the ignorance of the cashier, and were not the fault of the person that previously spent the bill.
<< <i>2) So what if you offered to pay more than face value. It was spent, and shouldn't have been accepted for currency. If someone wanted to trade/buy it from the person, then fine, but it shouldn't have been accepted. It is NOT real money. As a play money item, then fine, but not real spendable monies. Again, another poor example which just illustrates the other side of your point about selectivity being applied.....when supporters state no one will spend them/accept them. Obviously, it happens/happened. >>
A "COPY" stamp on a coin will not prevent it from entering circulation. It is incorrect to assume that if I put "COPY" on my altered (over-struck) coins, that would automatically prevent them from entering circulation. And if if someone does end up paying face value for a copy or altered coin, it may very well be worth more than face value.
<< <i>3) Yes. It *MAY* be worth more, but it isn't legitimate US approved currency/coin. Therefore, if it is attempted to be passed off that way, someone is in the wrong. If it was taken, knowingly, in trade for some value, then that is up to the person accepting it. Again, I do not think this adds anything positive to your argument.
4) Same thing....the fact that the value is worth more than the face value does not mean it is legit. Someone counterfeited the item and passed it off. >>
The question should be, what damage has been done in these two cases ? The recipients were not financially harmed. The only potential damage is a very slight dilution of the currency because these items entered circulation at face value but were not legally monetized as US money. In contrast, when I create my over-strikes, the general currency is NOT diluted because I "consume" an equal amount of legal tender (the over-struck items have the same apparent face value that they had before the over-striking).
<< <i>Dan - sometimes you have valid arguments for things. In the above cases, at least to me, you failed. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck. No matter the value being higher/lower...it isn't real and shouldn't be something that could be taken as being real and used in a real way. >>
You are making the potentially flawed case that an over-struck coin is no longer legal tender. I'm not claiming that it is. But what evidence do you have that an over-struck coin is no longer legal tender ?
<< <i>
You are making the potentially flawed case that an over-struck coin is no longer legal tender. I'm not claiming that it is. But what evidence do you have that an over-struck coin is no longer legal tender ? >>
I'll delete and ignore the other portions as you will never see any potential damages nor harm to anyone, because it benefits you NOT to do so. This is your job and how you make money, and I understand that. Same as those guys in China.
For the last piece, if it isn't proven TO be true, then one is not necessarily incorrect to operate under the assumption that it is not true.
Unless, and until, an official representative from the US Government (one of the mints or secret service, I would hope) puts out an official status that says what you produce, as over-strikes, is legitimate, then I only know my own thoughts on them. I put them in the same class as what is coming out of China. You may use the same materials as originally done, instead of just some other base metal, but I feel they are in the same boat. I view what comes out of China as "fantasy" as well.
I have, as I have stated before, personally seen a friend get tricked due to coins that weren't "real". If he were into numismatics, he would hopefully have known better. If he had thought he was getting ripped off, maybe he would have looked things up. As it was, it was a quick decision, not a lot of money (thankfully), and nothing that he could have done with any knowledge assistance at that time.
Obviously, you do this because you like to, and also because you make money from it. People buy them because (many of the people) want to make money too, so they buy and sell them. A lot of it is all about the money; in more ways than one.
I hadn't wanted to stay out of the thread, but people calling others "ignorant", and somewhat obviously in a very negative way, or putting any potential blame on someone who didn't know better, drew me in. My post obviously hit close to home for you on it and so you jumped in to defend them, as they are a large source of funds to you, obviously.
Get that official declaration from someone in the government who can legitimately supply it, and I will purchase some from you. Until then, Colorado or China, the products are too similar.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I'll delete and ignore the other portions as you will never see any potential damages nor harm to anyone, because it benefits you NOT to do so. This is your job and how you make money, and I understand that. Same as those guys in China. >>
The "guys" in China and their re-sellers are making a deliberate attempt to deceive. They even used image trickery to fake the "REPLICA" stamp. This stamp appeared on internet images, but many of the coins came without it. They make fake PCGS slabs and try to pass them off as legitimate. They do not publish diagnostics, mintages, or any other information about their items. So when you say I am the "same as the guys in China", that is very false.
<< <i>For the last piece, if it isn't proven TO be true, then one is not necessarily incorrect to operate under the assumption that it is not true.
Unless, and until, an official representative from the US Government (one of the mints or secret service, I would hope) puts out an official status that says what you produce, as over-strikes, is legitimate, then I only know my own thoughts on them. I put them in the same class as what is coming out of China. You may use the same materials as originally done, instead of just some other base metal, but I feel they are in the same boat. I view what comes out of China as "fantasy" as well. >>
Coin World specifically asked the Secret Service about my "1964-D" Peace Dollar over-strikes. Coin World was told that they (the Secret Service) does not interpret laws for the public. The Secret Service suggested that Coin World contact the US Attorney office in the region where the activity (over-striking) was being performed. When I contacted the Denver US Attorney office, their spokesperson told me that they do not render legal opinons for the public, and that I would have to hire a lawyer on my own. I consulted with one, but there was practically no precedence for this situation and no way to evaluate it. But a coin that has been mutilated to such an extent that none of the original details are visible can generally still be redeemed at face value if the US Treasury can verify it based on the weight, diameter, thickness, and metallic composition.
You said "(I) may use the same materials as originally done, instead of just some other base metal". A point of clarification: I don't just use the original "materials". I use the original coins themselves and over-strike them without heating or melting, and without adding or removing any metal.
<< <i>I have, as I have stated before, personally seen a friend get tricked due to coins that weren't "real". If he were into numismatics, he would hopefully have known better. If he had thought he was getting ripped off, maybe he would have looked things up. As it was, it was a quick decision, not a lot of money (thankfully), and nothing that he could have done with any knowledge assistance at that time.
Obviously, you do this because you like to, and also because you make money from it. People buy them because (many of the people) want to make money too, so they buy and sell them. A lot of it is all about the money; in more ways than one. >>
I've seen people lose a lot of money on polished and cleaned coins over the years, far more than all other types of alteration and fakery combined. Slabbing of coins has reduced that problem significantly. If there is one thing to teach a novice, it is to stick to certified coins until they are no longer novices. This is why I am in favor of certifying over-struck coins for what they are.
Of course, a lot of people buy the over-struck coins simply because they like them, not because they want to re-sell them. One of the largest Denver area coin shops has a "1964-D" over-struck Peace Dollar on display. The long-time owner of the shop tells me a lot of people want to buy it, but he likes it and wants to keep it on display.
<< <i>...
Get that official declaration from someone in the government who can legitimately supply it, and I will purchase some from you. Until then, Colorado or China, the products are too similar. >>
"Colorado or China, the products are too similar"
Andy Warhol painted a Campbell's soup can label. The label and the painting are very similar. But now that painting is worth many millions of dollars. Why ? Because the artist is iconic, famous, and controversial. So the context is important in the value. A "coin" stamped on junk metal, in large quantities, by an anonymous Chinese "worker", with no published information as to the diagnostics, characteristics, or mintages, is not the same as a piece made by a known American artist who designed actual US coins, produced in a known quantity, with published diagnostics, using surplus US Mint equipment.
1987
bluewater
pics of fantasy coins
I think "FAKE" is the more appropriate word that should be required to be put on the "1933 Quarter."
I can't imagine a date-mintmark collector of Washington Quarters wanting one of these to put between his/her authentic '32's and '34's.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>I can agree with a marking of fake but not copy because it is not a copy or how about designating it a token..... gnight all plesant dreams and remember tomorrow is a future you help create whether bad good or otherwise..... >>
ANACS certifies them as a "Token" and an over-strike ("O/S").
<< <i>I can't imagine a date-mintmark collector of Washington Quarters wanting one of these to put between his/her authentic '32's and '34's. >>
Perhaps not. But there do seem to be people that want them regardless. I could see someone putting one in an empty undated hole at the end of the album.
<< <i>A few questions for DCarr, How many each of these fantasy 1933 Washington will be pressed ? ... >>
>>> How many each of these fantasy 1933 Washington will be pressed ?
That is undetermined. Final quantities of other fantasy-date over-strike coins that I have produced in the past range from about 60 to about 2,000. Most were less than 400.
<< <i>
<< <i>I can agree with a marking of fake but not copy because it is not a copy or how about designating it a token..... gnight all plesant dreams and remember tomorrow is a future you help create whether bad good or otherwise..... >>
ANACS certifies them as a "Token" and an over-strike ("O/S"). >>
ICG graded and slabbed my Dan Carr 1964-D Peace dollars with the Fantasy Overstrike designation on the label so at least two grading services recognize them as being legitimate numismatic items.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>A few questions for DCarr, How many each of these fantasy 1933 Washington will be pressed ? ... >>
>>> How many each of these fantasy 1933 Washington will be pressed ?
That is undetermined. Final quantities of other fantasy-date over-strike coins that I have produced in the past range from about 60 to about 2,000. Most were less than 400. >>
Dan---Do these threads help your sales of these numismatic items? Just curious if there is an up-tick in orders when the CU Debating Society generates these long winded threads.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Dan---Do these threads help your sales of these numismatic items? Just curious if there is an up-tick in orders when the CU Debating Society generates these long winded threads. >>
It does appear that there is an uptick in activity when discussions here are ongoing.
<< <i>
<< <i>Dan---Do these threads help your sales of these numismatic items? Just curious if there is an up-tick in orders when the CU Debating Society generates these long winded threads. >>
It does appear that there is an uptick in activity when discussions here are ongoing. >>
It's quite ironic that your detractors are helping your business.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
several members have made reference to your "artistic" ability and the beauty of the products you produce, yet they are really no more than copies of another's work. after having worked as a Machinist/Tool and Die maker for close to 30 years I view you as "skilled" and assume that a person such as me, once acquainted with the machinery required to make the product you sell, could do the same quality work. however, I doubt I could ever produce an original work of art which might be viewed in the same manner as these copies. understanding your limited success of the past regarding US coin design and your other original work, why do you choose to focus on what amounts to plagiarism instead of moving forward to improve your artistic skill and focus your talent on original work??
from what I have seen I am left to infer that the "original" work finds no market to sell into, at least not a market that will sustain itself, while the "overstrike" market(at the PCGS forums) flourishes and carries an incentive to continue. it strikes me sort of like the Starving Artist type of pictures where a guy can't make anything that will hang in a gallery but can do all sorts of stuff that will hang over a living room couch. perhaps a bad analogy but one supported by the evidence at hand.
Perry, you have to know that those "grading services" are currently not much higher than laughing stock. heck, I could take a punch-out from an electric box with a design scratched on it and they'd encapsulate the thing. try this-----drive to the Post Office and mail one to PCGS, the package might beat you back to your house. asking those services to slab these does nothing to legitimize them from my perspective, it probably does the opposite, but it was a nice try and good for a laugh.
<< <i>my questions always seem to go unanswered but I'll ask another one anyway.....................to DC specifically this time.
several members have made reference to your "artistic" ability and the beauty of the products you produce, yet they are really no more than copies of another's work. after having worked as a Machinist/Tool and Die maker for close to 30 years I view you as "skilled" and assume that a person such as me, once acquainted with the machinery required to make the product you sell, could do the same quality work. however, I doubt I could ever produce an original work of art which might be viewed in the same manner as these copies. understanding your limited success of the past regarding US coin design and your other original work, why do you choose to focus on what amounts to plagiarism instead of moving forward to improve your artistic skill and focus your talent on original work??
from what I have seen I am left to infer that the "original" work finds no market to sell into, at least not a market that will sustain itself, while the "overstrike" market(at the PCGS forums) flourishes and carries an incentive to continue. it strikes me sort of like the Starving Artist type of pictures where a guy can't make anything that will hang in a gallery but can do all sorts of stuff that will hang over a living room couch. perhaps a bad analogy but one supported by the evidence at hand. >>
I'm interested as well in your answer to this post Dan.
<< <i>ICG graded and slabbed my Dan Carr 1964-D Peace dollars with the Fantasy Overstrike designation on the label so at least two grading services recognize them as being legitimate numismatic items.
Perry, you have to know that those "grading services" are currently not much higher than laughing stock. heck, I could take a punch-out from an electric box with a design scratched on it and they'd encapsulate the thing. try this-----drive to the Post Office and mail one to PCGS, the package might beat you back to your house. asking those services to slab these does nothing to legitimize them from my perspective, it probably does the opposite, but it was a nice try and good for a laugh. >>
I was wondering how long before one of the Kool-Aid crowd would come on to denigrate ANACS and ICG. Thanks for not disappointing me.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
A good assignment Keets, IMO, would be to take one of his Oregon Commems (Dan's) and look at it next to an original US Mint struck specimen. Does it hold up? Is it artistic?
Well, also IMO, it does nicely. His coins/tokens are a bit of fun, not necessarily for everybody but very nice and numismata that are well appreciated by many.
Also, I've an idea: how about you test your skills up against Dan's and put the results up for us to judge? Your win would well support your position…Or vice versa..
Well, just Love coins, period.
fake fÄk/ noun: fake; plural noun: fakes 1.a thing that is not genuine. I do not believe this term applies as D.C.s works do not exist prior to his producing them.
cop·yˈkäpē/noun: copy; plural noun: copies 1. a thing made to be similar or identical to another. This is close in that they are similar to other numismatic items but are not an exact copy.
Would all tokens therefore be considered fakes or copies because they were not minted by the U.S. mint? If this is true of D.C.s Tokens then should all tokens be treated this way or is he only being singled out for this treatment? I ask this because I like tokens and find them immensely creative JMHO.
By this I mean in addition to the "FANTASY" restrike of older coins,,,, coins from 35, 50 or even 100 years in the past I would like to see "FUTURE FANTASY" strikes of coins 100 years in the FUTURE.
I suggest a coin to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Chelsea Clinton as the 1st woman to be elected as President of the United States. It would be on a Sacagawea Dollar planchet and then when I pull this coin dated 2114 out of my pocket and show it to my family and neighbors they will finally realize that that big black steel box with 50,000 volts of 3 phase power I built in the back yard really is the time machine that I told everyone it is. The coin dated 100 years in the future would PROVE that I went forward in time and brought back the coin.
GrandAm
<< <i>I love Dan's creations and have purchased many of them, however I feel he is leaving a very large market on the shelf untouched.
By this I mean in addition to the "FANTASY" restrike of older coins,,,, coins from 35, 50 or even 100 years in the past I would like to see "FUTURE FANTASY" strikes of coins 100 years in the FUTURE.
I suggest a coin to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Chelsea Clinton as the 1st woman to be elected as President of the United States. It would be on a Sacagawea Dollar planchet and then when I pull this coin dated 2114 out of my pocket and show it to my family and neighbors they will finally realize that that big black steel box with 50,000 volts of 3 phase power I built in the back yard really is the time machine that I told everyone it is. The coin dated 100 years in the future would PROVE that I went forward in time and brought back the coin.
GrandAm
Even though that black steel box supplies 50kv across 3 phases it's still missing a flux capacitor which is a must for time travel
Is the single,only one known,1959 Wheat cent a token?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>
<< <i>I love Dan's creations and have purchased many of them, however I feel he is leaving a very large market on the shelf untouched.
By this I mean in addition to the "FANTASY" restrike of older coins,,,, coins from 35, 50 or even 100 years in the past I would like to see "FUTURE FANTASY" strikes of coins 100 years in the FUTURE.
I suggest a coin to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Chelsea Clinton as the 1st woman to be elected as President of the United States. It would be on a Sacagawea Dollar planchet and then when I pull this coin dated 2114 out of my pocket and show it to my family and neighbors they will finally realize that that big black steel box with 50,000 volts of 3 phase power I built in the back yard really is the time machine that I told everyone it is. The coin dated 100 years in the future would PROVE that I went forward in time and brought back the coin.
GrandAm
Even though that black steel box supplies 50kv across 3 phases it's still missing a flux capacitor which is a must for time travel
------------------------------------------------------
OK, I just ordered this to complete my time machine,,,,,
Flux Capacitor
eBay has EVERYTHING
"DC" mintmark on the reverse right above "QUARTER DOLLAR" would work to clearly identify the item as a token and would also be great advertising for the maker.
All such pieces,no matter who makes them,would need a distinct mintmark totally different from the mintmarks used by the mint.
For example,simply using a "D" for "Dan" wouldn't comply with my new law
"CC" would even work for the "1933 Quarter" as distinctly different since everyone knows the last Carson City coins were struck in 1893.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>It occurs to me that I would be alot more comfortable with pieces such as this 1933 Quarter being out there if there was a requirement to stamp a distinct mintmark on the piece where a mintmark would appear if the piece were an authentic US mint product.
"DC" mintmark on the reverse right above "QUARTER DOLLAR" would work to clearly identify the item as a token and would also be great advertising for the maker.
All such pieces,no matter who makes them,would need a distinct mintmark totally different from the mintmarks used by the mint.
For example,simply using a "D" for "Dan" wouldn't comply with my new law
"CC" would even work for the "1933 Quarter" as distinctly different since everyone knows the last Carson City coins were struck in 1893. >>
If you are not smart enough to realize the US minted never made a 1933 quarter, you probably would not be smart enough to know the mint mark represents a mint that did not mint the 1933 quarter.
Exactly what does fake mean?
When does a US coin become not a US coin?
Should we ban hobo nickels as they are the same thing?
IMO, the Oregon piece is the best SA, and worth locating one if possible.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I love Dan's creations and have purchased many of them, however I feel he is leaving a very large market on the shelf untouched.
By this I mean in addition to the "FANTASY" restrike of older coins,,,, coins from 35, 50 or even 100 years in the past I would like to see "FUTURE FANTASY" strikes of coins 100 years in the FUTURE.
I suggest a coin to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Chelsea Clinton as the 1st woman to be elected as President of the United States. It would be on a Sacagawea Dollar planchet and then when I pull this coin dated 2114 out of my pocket and show it to my family and neighbors they will finally realize that that big black steel box with 50,000 volts of 3 phase power I built in the back yard really is the time machine that I told everyone it is. The coin dated 100 years in the future would PROVE that I went forward in time and brought back the coin.
GrandAm
Even though that black steel box supplies 50kv across 3 phases it's still missing a flux capacitor which is a must for time travel
------------------------------------------------------
OK, I just ordered this to complete my time machine,,,,,
Flux Capacitor
eBay has EVERYTHING
Lol just picked up one my self