PCGS graded fantasy patterns
Zoins
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There are a number of PCGS graded fantasy patterns on eBay now.
One is PCGS 28138291 which says "X#Pn2 Fantasy Pattern" on the insert and in the variety field.
What are these and why does PCGS certify them?
Does this mean PCGS will certify the small dollar issues from Dan Carr and Ron Landis now which are less fantasy as they were submitted and considered.
One is PCGS 28138291 which says "X#Pn2 Fantasy Pattern" on the insert and in the variety field.
What are these and why does PCGS certify them?
Does this mean PCGS will certify the small dollar issues from Dan Carr and Ron Landis now which are less fantasy as they were submitted and considered.
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<< <i>There are a number of PCGS graded fantasy patterns on eBay now.
One is PCGS 28138291 which says "X#Pn2 Fantasy Pattern" on the insert and in the variety field.
What are these and why does PCGS certify them?
Does this mean PCGS will certify the small dollar issues from Dan Carr and Ron Landis now which are less fantasy as they were submitted and considered.
No. At this point in time, PCGS will NOT certify or even slab one of Daniel Carr's Fantasy pieces.
To do so, might open the gate to get one of the 1964-D Carr Dollars slabbed and that just ain't gonna happen.
NOW, if a BIG TIME Collector or group of important collectors were to jump on the bandwagon, it might be a different story.
Maybe someone from the Foreign and World Coins would care to expound upon how these pieces, which are relatively Modern (i.e. 1992-2003) came into existence and WHY they are not being called "counterfeits??
The name is LEE!
I always thought ANACS was a respected TPG?? And we all love other ebay policies…….
PCGS has always been a follower, whether it's varieties, world coins or CWT's. But, when they do follow, they do it right and do it well.
Now, back to the OP - anyone have some useful info??
Edited to add the correct image link….
Sweden & The Euro
We believe that Sweden will eventually join the Euro, along with about a dozen other countries. It is not known whether any official plans have been made to produce pattern designs for a set of Swedish euro coins. It is likely that if any designs have already been considered, they will have been kept top secret for political reasons. Sweden will hold a referendum on Euro entry on 14 September 2003. Meanwhile a privately produced pattern set has been produced.
Unofficial Patterns
On a number of previous occasions, especially before major coinage changes, pattern coins have been produced as a design exercise or to test public opinion. Many of these have been privately produced. A privately produced pattern set of British euro coins has already been produced, and met with intense demand, despite almost negligible marketing. Original priced at around €40, these have changed hands for over €250 on e-bay.
We received a pre-production sample set of eight coins in folder in May, and show images above of this set.
Deliveries started in late May, after the usual production delays, and we expect to be able to fill all existing orders very soon, subject to any production problems. Over half our existing orders have been shipped out during the first week of July.
I haven't heard a single person suggest these are a violation of anything.
Here's a Washington Post article showing designs from both Carr and Landis.
<< <i>When the industry that supports the hobby soundly rejects them (TPGs and eBay)
I always thought ANACS was a respected TPG?? And we all love other ebay policies…….
>>
Come on Lakesammman, you're smarter than that. ANACS is what it is, a catch all company that looks for what ever scraps the two big boys leave to drive submissions all while attempting to leverage a reputation with collectors that is not less than 10years out of date with the markets perception. What ANACS was and what they are today have nothing to do with each other.
<< <i>Just to be clear, the Carr and Landis pieces I'm talking about here are designs submitted to and accepted by official mints for consideration.
I haven't heard a single person suggest these are a violation of anything. >>
Agreed, and I am a fan of some of his so-called dollars too. I just chose not to support those either as the whole over-strike profiteering angle discredits the good stuff by association IMO.
Why isn't this one a "counterfeit"?
What About the New Haven Restrike?
To quote Stacks Bowers:
"The so-called "New Haven Restrikes" were produced by the Waterbury, Connecticut-based Scovill Manufacturing Company circa 1858-1860. As the firm used a new set of dies that differ in detail to those used in regular issue Fugio Copper production of the 1780s, these" New Haven Restrikes" are neither from New Haven nor are they restrikes. Most known examples are struck in copper, bronze or brass, although rarer silver and gold impressions are known. "
Daniel Carr's pieces WILL have a place in History and the TPG's WILL recognize them provided TPG's are even around.
As for ANACS, ANACS is a no BS company which stays true to their charter in that they grade "numismatic items" and there are many true collector's that appreciate their services.
But then, this thread is about these "Fantasy" pieces which I'm curious about their origins. So far, few have offered any information other than Lakesammon who might just want to provide a link??
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Who Made this one?
Why isn't this one a "counterfeit"?
What About the New Haven Restrike?
To quote Stacks Bowers:
"The so-called "New Haven Restrikes" were produced by the Waterbury, Connecticut-based Scovill Manufacturing Company circa 1858-1860. As the firm used a new set of dies that differ in detail to those used in regular issue Fugio Copper production of the 1780s, these" New Haven Restrikes" are neither from New Haven nor are they restrikes. Most known examples are struck in copper, bronze or brass, although rarer silver and gold impressions are known. "
Daniel Carr's pieces WILL have a place in History and the TPG's WILL recognize them provided TPG's are even around.
As for ANACS, ANACS is a no BS company which stays true to their charter in that they grade "numismatic items" and there are many true collector's that appreciate their services.
But then, this thread is about these "Fantasy" pieces which I'm curious about their origins. So far, few have offered any information other than Lakesammon who might just want to provide a link?? >>
<< <i>The biggest proponents tend to be the collectors and flippers of his stuff which is to say not impartial. >>
Dennis
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<< <i>These are listed in the Krause "Unusual" catalog and that's the reason they are being slabbed. There is a ton of varieties from different countries going back to the mid 1990's. Check for Euro & Ecu coinage for examples.
Dennis >>
Thanks Dennis but it still does not account for where they came from or who made them?
Was it really a "private" company?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>The biggest proponents tend to be the collectors and flippers of his stuff which is to say not impartial. >>
Ahhhh!
Kinda like Silver Eagles?
The name is LEE!
The Carr 64-D's were made from false dies of an official coin.
The two things are apples and oranges.
Why did PCGS decide to grade the Swedish pieces? I don't know, but I can see a legitimate argument for doing so. On the other hand, the attribution should probably more clearly indicate that the things are completely unofficial, and made by a private mint.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
as for his items they will be placed in the odd collectables cause well they aren't legal tender in any nation or seen as anything but a fake
you can give speeches and copy and paste all you want to but not going to change what the real world sees
coins for sale at link below (read carefully)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wvMmoUmVZySywyXj7
<< <i>Pcgs has ruled in line with the majority of people who view Dcarrs stuff to be in violation of the hobby protection act. >>
Show me the "PCGS ruling". I want to see it.
Where do you get your data that "the majority of people view Dcarrs stuff to be in violation of the hobby protection act" ?
The only data I know of was a poll conducted at another forum which indicated the opposite of your claim.
<< <i>The biggest proponents tend to be the collectors and flippers of his stuff which is to say not impartial. >>
And you are not impartial on the other side ?
<< <i>I would be hard pressed to think of any old gaurd or educated numismatist/dealer who thinks that they are 100% legal despite what his fans say. >>
What item(s) are you talking about ? Concept dollars or over-strikes ? Q David Bowers purchased a set of my concept dollars. At shows, major dealers ask me all the time if I have any "1964-D" over-strike Peace dollars that they can buy.
<< <i>When the industry that supports the hobby soundly rejects them (TPGs and eBay) it should at least give the avg collector pause to ask why. >>
"Soundly rejected" is not an accurate description of the current market for things I've produced.
Go to the eBay Coins category and search for "Carr" and click on the "Sold Items" button.
<< <i>My best guess is that these were minted by the Swedish and Norweigen mints as patterns that were not accepted for circulation. If they were minted by some other mint as fantasy coins, than all bets are off. >>
If they were produced by the Sweden or Norway government mint, then they would be a government-issue pattern, not a "fantasy" as indicated on the holder.
To be a "fantasy", it has to be an unofficial private mint issue.
<< <i>These are listed in the Krause "Unusual" catalog and that's the reason they are being slabbed. There is a ton of varieties from different countries going back to the mid 1990's. Check for Euro & Ecu coinage for examples. >>
My Astronaut, Bessie Coleman, and Sacagawea concept dollars alre also listed in the Krause "Unusual World Coins" catalog.
Other items of mine listed in that catalog are:
Concept state quarters.
Parody state quarters.
Concept trade dollars.
Union of North America Amero concepts.
Also note that many of the Norfed "Liberty Dollars" are listed in that catalog as well.
<< <i>Interest in fantasy pieces and patterns is limited, but it's there. >>
Mintages are also generally quite low, mich makes for a "thin" (volatile) market.
<< <i>The Swedish pieces are authentic fantasy issues. >>
What's an authentic fantasy piece? I would think anything called a fantasy issue would be something designed and struck outside the Swedish mint, much as the small dollar "audition" strikings. An authentic fantasy piece would then be something that's not a copy of the fantasy pieces. If struck by the Swedish mint, why would they be called fantasy pieces?
The OP's question regarding what PCGS will certify and why remains unanswered.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>place in history? then earn that spot in history cause it's not going to be given to carr he has to do something major and so far he has not
as for his items they will be placed in the odd collectables cause well they aren't legal tender in any nation or seen as anything but a fake
you can give speeches and copy and paste all you want to but not going to change what the real world sees >>
The only real evidence we have about what the "real world sees" is prices realized at auction.
Everything else is just speculation.
<< <i>Come on Lakesammman, you're smarter than that. ANACS is what it is, a catch all company that looks for what ever scraps the two big boys leave to drive submissions all while attempting to leverage a reputation with collectors that is not less than 10years out of date with the markets perception. What ANACS was and what they are today have nothing to do with each other. >>
The images posted in this thread prove that PCGS is certifying privately-minted "fantasy" coins.
Wouldn't that make everything you said about ANACS also apply to PCGS ?
Grading companies are constantly looking for new streams of items to certify.
It is always better to have more information than less. So I'm in favor of allowing all numismatic items to be certified - so as to provide such information.
And I think it is better that grading companies certify new items rather than focusing on re-grading all the coins that have already been graded (which can lead to "gradeflation").
<< <i>Agreed, and I am a fan of some of his so-called dollars too. I just chose not to support those either as the whole over-strike profiteering angle discredits the good stuff by association IMO. >>
You make it sound like "profiteering" is a bad thing. Have you ever made a profit by selling a coin that you bought for less than market value from some unaware person ?
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>As a 40-year collector and a CLCT shareholder (for almost a decade), I'd like to see PCGS grading Dcarr and other similar pieces. I think they will eventually, and I'd see it as a positive for the collector, the company, and the hobby. >>
All flipping aside, I agree with you.
BTW, I've only sold 3 of the 64-D Peace Dollars I owned. That was fun!
The name is LEE!