Ebay shill bidding

Chessman · October 29, 2013 1:04AM

I had an interchange with a major ebay seller who said that if you want to really make money there you need to have shill bidders. I see the pattern with this major seller, all bids are private and the raw material regularly goes over real market pricing. Cautiously done, shill bidding will not be detected and even if reported the ebay management may not do anything in the way of an investigation especially if they are making lots of money from the seller. What's in it for them? And as usual whistleblowing is a losing proposition, what is in it for me to report it? It would just look like I am trying to undermine my competition which is not true at all, I figure that an honest playing field is vital for all concerned.

So the question is can ebay really detect cautious and careful shill bidding, and if they do will they take action?

s4ny · October 29, 2013 1:09AM

I am a low ball bidder, so I never have a problem with shills.

Bayard1908 · October 29, 2013 1:10AM

The eBay seller neyronix was suspected of shill bidding for months or years on this board before eBay reputedly shut them down.

mbogoman · October 29, 2013 1:20AM

I gave up on reporting shill bidding. I provided several clear, obvious examples to Ebay and nothing was done. These were cases in which the shill bidder had 85% or higher activity with the seller, the coin(s) sold to the shill bidder (who left positive feedback), then the coin(s) reappeared for sale again by the same seller, AND THE SAME SHILL BIDDER BID ON THE COIN(S) AGAIN! The sellers I reported were both high volume sellers. Nothing was done.

I can remember only one time where Ebay shut down a rampant employer of shill bidding - our old friend "neyronix". He was so egregious and had so many complaints I think they couldn't just ignore him...

Unknown · October 29, 2013 1:32AM

This content has been removed.

LindeDad · October 29, 2013 1:37AM

Snipe programs make the shill a winner and you only bid your max for the item.

tincup · October 29, 2013 1:55AM

Ebay has little incentive to shut down shill bidders aggressively. After all, their income is directly tied to ... higher bids. So shill bids puts more money in their pockets. They will only aggressively persue shilling when it is perceived that they are losing bidders because of it.

AMRC · October 29, 2013 2:05AM

It's eBay. They continue to put the squeeze on sellers and so I am not surprised, nor am I the least sympathetic.

They have created a situation where buying on eBay is perhaps the most regulated (not as in law) selling environment on the net. All designed around getting shoppers in, they could give a poop about sellers as they are a dime a dozen.

I say all those that have top-tier status enjoy it while it lasts, as when it comes to selling raw coins, you will inevitably lose it because of unsophisticated buyers.

Unknown · October 29, 2013 2:09AM

This content has been removed.

mercurydimeguy · October 29, 2013 2:20AM

Any marketplace that has a potential for profit and loss will attract usually incredibly bright yet deviant people who will attempt to exploit the market for their personal gain. This is nothing new and dates back 5,000+ years...

Speculation and greed are part of mankind, have been as long as history can recall, and will likely continue long into the future.

tincup · October 29, 2013 2:34AM

"In his book Fake: Forgery, Lies, & eBay, Kenneth Walton describes how he and his cohorts placed shill bids on hundreds of eBay auctions over the course of a year. Walton and his associates were charged and convicted of fraud by the United States Attorney for their eBay shill bidding." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill

I think that info is not quite correct; they may not have been prosecuted for shill bidding. Rather, they appear to have been prosecuted for forgery; the items they were selling were forged paintings. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fake:_Forgery,_Lies,_&_eBay)

I'm sure they probably used some shilling to pump the price, but I suspect shilling is not what they were prosecuted on.)

I'm not sure that shilling as it applies to ebay would be readily prosecutable, or whether anyone would even be interested in pushing it. But... I'm certainly no expert in these matters. Regardless, your premise is correct... if prosecution were to take place then ebay might then start caring about the practice.

LindeDad · October 29, 2013 2:40AM

Simple fact shilling is not against the law in many states. Read the auction laws and cry some more.

libertydude · October 29, 2013 2:46AM

See sig

lostincoins · October 29, 2013 2:56AM

Shill bidding is just part of the auction and has been employed as long as auctions have been around. This type of activity is not limited to ebay it is used in most auctions especially if they are lagging. As a protagonist think of how shill bids help drive the market and increase the value of items being sold. I do not employ this practice but it is out there none the less.

PerryHall · October 29, 2013 3:01AM

I never understood the attraction of shill bidding. If they buy their coin because no one out bid their shill bid, don't they have to pay all the eBay fees?

LindeDad · October 29, 2013 3:03AM

Not if the sale is cancelled.

derryb · October 29, 2013 3:19AM

>>

What's in it for them? >>

Once ebay has been put on documented notice, the clock starts on their legal and financial liability should the person reporting the violation seeking court support for damages. Shill bidding is against ebay policy because it is illegal.

Unknown · October 29, 2013 10:44AM

This content has been removed.

RYK · October 29, 2013 10:47AM

Shill bidding on eBay? Next you are going to tell me that there's no Santa Clause in numismatics.

Shill bidding, in one form or another is everywhere. You may benefit from it more than you think. It probably props up the coin market to a considerable degree. Embrace it.

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD · October 29, 2013 10:52AM

<< I figure that an honest playing field is vital for all concerned. >>

...like steroids and Major Leauge Baseball.

Erik

derryb · October 29, 2013 11:14AM

<< I wouldn't know how to legally put them on notice. >>

The moment you reported the suspected shill bidding electronically you put ebay on notice. Their reply or acknowledgement is further digital evidence.

mrpotatoheadd · October 29, 2013 11:40AM

<< See sig >>

Posting that helped keep the YAIEP at the top of the list.

Just sayin'...

Max2 · October 29, 2013 11:50AM

I look at it this way.

In reality, the seller is placing a reserve on his material. He could easily do that (place a reserve), or even a BIN.

If he does not want to sell his stuff at below market, he can do reserve or BIN. Shill bidding is just a snarky way of doing the same thing. If the $$ too high, he will not sell, so have to reduce his shill bidding if he wants to sell.

At the end of the day, the market rules.

Frankcoins · October 29, 2013 2:34PM

<< >>

What's in it for them? >>

Once ebay has been put on documented notice, the clock starts on their legal and financial liability should the person reporting the violation seeking court support for damages. Shill bidding is against ebay policy because it is illegal. >>

Shill bidding is against ebay policy because it is against ebay policy. The Uniform Commercial Code allows consignors to place bids as DEFAULT in all 50 states. Only if an auction is
advertised as "absolute auction" (no reserves, no minimums) are the consignors not permitted to bid.

Frankcoins · October 29, 2013 2:43PM

<< I look at it this way.

In reality, the seller is placing a reserve on his material. He could easily do that (place a reserve), or even a BIN.

If he does not want to sell his stuff at below market, he can do reserve or BIN. Shill bidding is just a snarky way of doing the same thing. If the $$ too high, he will not sell, so have to reduce his shill bidding if he wants to sell.

At the end of the day, the market rules. >>

Ebay once allowed sellers to place ONE BID on their items, so things would not sell for below market or at a loss ( an auction company is supposed to look after the interests of the SELLER by law) But ebay had to ban that practice when they started charging a extra fee to have a reserve.

The high profile "shill Bidding art" case was actually about selling fake art for hundreds of thousands of dollars, and the sellers created fake accounts named after famous art collectors to make it seem that "if They are bidding on it, it must be real"

The equivalent here would be fake PCGS slabs that ebay accounts DAVIDHALL and TOMDELORY and QDBOWERS were furiously bidding for...but the underlying crime is selling counterfeits, not shill bidding.

s4ny · October 29, 2013 10:49PM

<< The eBay seller neyronix was suspected of shill bidding for months or years on this board before eBay reputedly shut them down. >>

I am sure he did. Who else would put an NGC AU58 1854-D $3 gold up for auction
with a start price of 99 cents? It did get up over $50,000.

I also bought common date slabbed gold from him at what I felt were
very competitive prices. He moved a lot of coins.

joebb21 · October 29, 2013 11:01PM

Shill bidding or "house bids" or reserves are placed in almost all major auction houses.

TwoSides2aCoin · October 29, 2013 11:25PM

if i have to pay more to win because two people are complicit, then that is the cost of acquisition. If it is found that shill bidding was the process by which I had to pay more, then being complicit in that event constitutes an underbelly of the society or persons I want no part of. Yet, this is merely a small part of the tuition one must pay. I could use words that are more easily understood but this might constitute a violation of the house rules and be cause for banishment from the kingdom of the well situated and heavily armed.

______ ___ ______ ____ ______________ (imagine these thoughts)

okracer · October 30, 2013 12:37AM

Shill bidding is very different than placing a reserve, because the shill "bids" create the appearance that the item is more desirable through perceived high bidder interest. When I see reserves placed, many times I notice less bidding activity, possibly due to the perception that there is no opprtunity for a great deal to be had.

Like others have said, even when sniping, the shill bids can influence what you might place as your maximum bid.....

telephoto1 · October 30, 2013 2:31AM

The easy solution for this is to establish in your own mind how much you are willing to pay for the item and bid no higher than that amount, rendering shilling moot. If I'm willing to pay $100 for something and I get it for $100 I'm happy. I'm happier if I get it for less, but I'm still happy regardless. I've resigned myself to the fact that shilling is a reality both at live auctions and on eBay.
I do find it somewhat hypocritical for auctioneers to infer that shilling is mostly legal and not a big deal... yet these same guys go ballistic if they find out that some bidders were "bid rigging" ("I won't bid on the piece you want if you don't bid on mine").

lostincoins · October 30, 2013 7:01AM

link
This is a link to an article aboutshill bidding on ebay and their new rules.
I set my max bid and if it goes over oh well!

Ebay shill bidding

Comments

Leave a Comment