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An obvious question that I have never seen answered: Why don't the PCGS "Truview" photogr
apollo14
Posts: 146 ✭✭✭
I am bothered by the fact that a coin's grade does not appear on PCGS's "TruView" images. Any idea why, as I then have to go searching to find the grade of the coin I am looking at elsewhere?
Thanks!
Thanks!
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<< <i>I am bothered by the fact that a coin's grade does not appear on PCGS's "TruView" images. Any idea why, as I then have to go searching to find the grade of the coin I am looking at elsewhere?
Thanks! >>
I could be wrong but I think its because they are photographed before they are graded.
Cert Numbers are assigned when the coins are received and before they are graded which I suspect is another method of tracking.
The name is LEE!
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>I kind of like the fact that there is no grade on the photos, I think it's nice that the photos focus on the coin, not on the TPG grade assigned. The grade isn't and shouldn't be the focal point. >>
I believe this.
There are many PCGS graded coins that are slabbed but not TrueViewed. Then at a later date someone could send the slabbed coin back into PCGS for a TrueView photo and reholdering.
And whenever I have sent raw coins into PCGS, I almost always get the grades before getting the TrueView photo.
As a matter of fact there used to be a rule that ONLY coins that get problem free grades can be TrueView photo'd -- so a coin would have needed the grade before qualifying for a photo.
However in the past year or so that changed and now PCGS Genuine coins can be slabbed with a Cert Number and TV photo'd.
I think one reason why the grade is not stamped on the TrueView photo is in some cases the grade of a coin might change after a TV photo is taken ... for example with Reconsideration coins where the coin could upgrade but keep the same Cert Number.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
<< <i>Not true on imaging before grading.
There are many PCGS graded coins that are slabbed but not TrueViewed. Then at a later date someone could send the slabbed coin back into PCGS for a TrueView photo and reholdering. >>
If the coins are photographed before grading, then it stands to reason that the grade would not appear on the photo. Given the quantity of trueviewed coins, PCGS had to develop a "standard" format for all Trueviewed images. I think that the standard is based upon a default Trueview process and not necessarily a coin which is submitted "after the fact".
<< <i>And whenever I have sent raw coins into PCGS, I almost always get the grades before getting the TrueView photo. >>
Trueview Photography adds 3 - 5 days to the grading process so it stands to reason that the grades "might" get posted before the Trueviews are made available. My experience with this is that Trueview notification comes from Phil as a separate email "after" grades are made available via email notification. Trueview photographs must be "processed" after the picture is taken. (i.e. crop the coin, merge the obverse with the reverse, adjust the color, add the background, generate the different sizes.) So while a coin may get TrueView photographed on Monday, its image may not get processed until Tuesday or Wednesday. The pictures the end user sees and receives are not available instantly.
<< <i>As a matter of fact there used to be a rule that ONLY coins that get problem free grades can be TrueView photo'd -- so a coin would have needed the grade before qualifying for a photo. >>
The operative words are "used to". As far as grading and photographing, ALL coins are subject to preliminary examination to determine if they are even gradable. They do not have to go through the grading process to make this determination just like the "grade finalizer" does not have to have a consensus to approve of reject the grade.
<< <i>I think one reason why the grade is not stamped on the TrueView photo is in some cases the grade of a coin might change after a TV photo is taken ... for example with Reconsideration coins where the coin could upgrade but keep the same Cert Number. >>
This is quite possibly the case which worked out well for PCGS's standard Trueview fomat. In the past, new cert numbers were assigned but for whatever reason, that policy was changed. More then likely to accommodate the volume of coins being graded.
Not every coin is photographed. Only coins where TrueView photography is purchased and paid for gets a trueview photograph.
Coins which go through secure plus grading usually get a copy of the image scan (from the sniffer) attached to the certification number. This scan is NOT a trueview.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Coins which go through secure plus grading usually get a copy of the image scan (from the sniffer) attached to the certification number. This scan is NOT a trueview. >>
The Sniffer sniffs, for banned substances. It doesn't scan. The Secure Plus image is from the digital scanner that does the fingerprint. And yes, it is not a True View. It is of miserable quality but perhaps enough to ID the coin.
Lance.
Firstly the current template we use for TrueViews was developed initially in 2005, and had a simple software infrastructure built around it which just emailed customers. Our main concern with putting the grade in the image back then was due to the possibility of coins being regraded. Now we have the reconsideration service and the restoration service which would complicate things further. Our infrastructure was updated at the end of 2011, and while it streamlines my work and adds some features (I can change, swap, or remove images pretty quickly, save original files, change cert numbers) it's not perfect; for instance a cert number could be transcribed incorrectly. Including grade information adds another layer of complexity that we don't feel is necessary at this time.
Secondly, I tried to change the template to something more updated in 2010, and that was kind of a bomb. People did not like it so I changed it back… sort of. There were some modifications. People are simply accustomed to the current template, and there is no real demand to change it.
Third, we say TrueView adds 3-5 days to your submission, but the reality is that it's more like 3-5 hours. I do not hold on to them very long when I get them. There are exceptions, however. Only I shoot the paid-for TrueView images at this time until I get Chrissie up to speed. That means if there is a show things will get delayed until I get back.
As to when I photograph the coins, it can be at any time during the grading process. World TrueView submissions tend to take longer, so I typically photograph those before they're graded. US coins are usually after, but I coordinate with our grading room to make sure things are as streamlined as possible. When I get the coins after they are graded, those grades are NOT FINALIZED, meaning they could still change.
My process is automated, so if for instance if I photograph and upload images for a regular submission as soon as they're received, the photos won't be sent out by the system until the coins ship. There are exceptions, that being reholder/TrueView orders. Since the grades of those coins are already final, the system sends them out shortly after I photograph, upload and assemble them. It's for that reason that I hold on to those orders a bit longer, since I can get some instant feedback sometimes.
I hope this clears some things up.
Radiant Collection: Numismatics and Exonumia of the Atomic Age.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/3232
Thanks for taking the time to post to this thread! Love your pics!
<< <i>I kind of like the fact that there is no grade on the photos, I think it's nice that the photos focus on the coin, not on the TPG grade assigned. The grade isn't and shouldn't be the focal point. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>I kind of like the fact that there is no grade on the photos, I think it's nice that the photos focus on the coin, not on the TPG grade assigned. The grade isn't and shouldn't be the focal point. >>
And I appreciate PCGSPhoto's post.
Thanks for your update on your procedures. I have sent two batches of my early proof Lincolns in to you for reholdering in the past couple of years. I have appreciated your personal updates to me and your excellent photography of my coins. The personal value of your TrueViews to have in combination with the actual coins is well worth the cost to me. Thanks for your excellent work.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>As a matter of fact there used to be a rule that ONLY coins that get problem free grades can be TrueView photo'd -- so a coin would have needed the grade before qualifying for a photo.
However in the past year or so that changed and now PCGS Genuine coins can be slabbed with a Cert Number and TV photo'd. >>
That's not correct. I have have received Genuine coins with Truviews for a number of years now - at least since genuine coins were put into plastic for sure.
<< <i>I'd like to clear up a few things in this thread.
Firstly the current template we use for TrueViews was developed initially in 2005, and had a simple software infrastructure built around it which just emailed customers. Our main concern with putting the grade in the image back then was due to the possibility of coins being regraded. Now we have the reconsideration service and the restoration service which would complicate things further. Our infrastructure was updated at the end of 2011, and while it streamlines my work and adds some features (I can change, swap, or remove images pretty quickly, save original files, change cert numbers) it's not perfect; for instance a cert number could be transcribed incorrectly. Including grade information adds another layer of complexity that we don't feel is necessary at this time.
Secondly, I tried to change the template to something more updated in 2010, and that was kind of a bomb. People did not like it so I changed it back… sort of. There were some modifications. People are simply accustomed to the current template, and there is no real demand to change it.
Third, we say TrueView adds 3-5 days to your submission, but the reality is that it's more like 3-5 hours. I do not hold on to them very long when I get them. There are exceptions, however. Only I shoot the paid-for TrueView images at this time until I get Chrissie up to speed. That means if there is a show things will get delayed until I get back.
As to when I photograph the coins, it can be at any time during the grading process. World TrueView submissions tend to take longer, so I typically photograph those before they're graded. US coins are usually after, but I coordinate with our grading room to make sure things are as streamlined as possible. When I get the coins after they are graded, those grades are NOT FINALIZED, meaning they could still change.
My process is automated, so if for instance if I photograph and upload images for a regular submission as soon as they're received, the photos won't be sent out by the system until the coins ship. There are exceptions, that being reholder/TrueView orders. Since the grades of those coins are already final, the system sends them out shortly after I photograph, upload and assemble them. It's for that reason that I hold on to those orders a bit longer, since I can get some instant feedback sometimes.
I hope this clears some things up. >>
I really appreciate the response. While I understand and respect the logistical and aesthetics challenges of putting the grades on the photo. I think the thread was trying to address the additional steps needed to go look-up the coin via the cert number once the viewer is done admiring the coin. I wonder if what could be done technically would be to pre-associate the cert. number (and embed somewhere on the image like an easter egg) a URL with each image so that when the photo is displayed, clicking on that part of the the image would take you to the certification verification landing page, or some such thing. It solves the problem of not yet having the grade, and it would then give the viewer a very convenient feature. I know I can save off the image and set something up manually by manipulating the URL behind the photo but unfortunately that is beyond the scope of a majority of collectors.
Just a thought. I think this would preserve the integrity of the current format AND still be a significant convenience to collectors.
<< <i>Are your images manipulated to produce more contrast and color? >>
Your question sounds indicting. You might ask, is post-processing done on images?
I would expect virtually all professionals to reply "yes". Post processing is an important part of modern photography. Think of it as "corrective". Sure, it can be abused to deceive. Or simply done poorly.
Color and contrast can change markedly with lighting. From what I've read Phil uses plenty of vertical, high, bright, hot lighting. This will often bring out color and contrast.
Some True Views do seem to have color problems. Example below (bottom pix are from seller's auction). But you do have to hand it to Phil...he does remarkably good work, quickly and in quantity. And he's very customer-service focused.
Lance.
<< <i>I'd like to clear up a few things in this thread.
Firstly the current template we use for TrueViews was developed initially in 2005, and had a simple software infrastructure built around it which just emailed customers. Our main concern with putting the grade in the image back then was due to the possibility of coins being regraded. Now we have the reconsideration service and the restoration service which would complicate things further. Our infrastructure was updated at the end of 2011, and while it streamlines my work and adds some features (I can change, swap, or remove images pretty quickly, save original files, change cert numbers) it's not perfect; for instance a cert number could be transcribed incorrectly. Including grade information adds another layer of complexity that we don't feel is necessary at this time.
Secondly, I tried to change the template to something more updated in 2010, and that was kind of a bomb. People did not like it so I changed it back… sort of. There were some modifications. People are simply accustomed to the current template, and there is no real demand to change it.
Third, we say TrueView adds 3-5 days to your submission, but the reality is that it's more like 3-5 hours. I do not hold on to them very long when I get them. There are exceptions, however. Only I shoot the paid-for TrueView images at this time until I get Chrissie up to speed. That means if there is a show things will get delayed until I get back.
As to when I photograph the coins, it can be at any time during the grading process. World TrueView submissions tend to take longer, so I typically photograph those before they're graded. US coins are usually after, but I coordinate with our grading room to make sure things are as streamlined as possible. When I get the coins after they are graded, those grades are NOT FINALIZED, meaning they could still change.
My process is automated, so if for instance if I photograph and upload images for a regular submission as soon as they're received, the photos won't be sent out by the system until the coins ship. There are exceptions, that being reholder/TrueView orders. Since the grades of those coins are already final, the system sends them out shortly after I photograph, upload and assemble them. It's for that reason that I hold on to those orders a bit longer, since I can get some instant feedback sometimes.
I hope this clears some things up. >>
... many thanks for taking the time to clarify things, Phil, and I love your work. However, too often when I see one of your beautiful finished products, I am left guessing what the grade of the coin is that I am looking at. Perhaps you could find a solution to that in time.
<< <i>I'd like to clear up a few things in this thread.
Firstly the current template we use for TrueViews was developed initially in 2005, and had a simple software infrastructure built around it which just emailed customers. Our main concern with putting the grade in the image back then was due to the possibility of coins being regraded. Now we have the reconsideration service and the restoration service which would complicate things further. Our infrastructure was updated at the end of 2011, and while it streamlines my work and adds some features (I can change, swap, or remove images pretty quickly, save original files, change cert numbers) it's not perfect; for instance a cert number could be transcribed incorrectly. Including grade information adds another layer of complexity that we don't feel is necessary at this time.
Secondly, I tried to change the template to something more updated in 2010, and that was kind of a bomb. People did not like it so I changed it back… sort of. There were some modifications. People are simply accustomed to the current template, and there is no real demand to change it.
Third, we say TrueView adds 3-5 days to your submission, but the reality is that it's more like 3-5 hours. I do not hold on to them very long when I get them. There are exceptions, however. Only I shoot the paid-for TrueView images at this time until I get Chrissie up to speed. That means if there is a show things will get delayed until I get back.
As to when I photograph the coins, it can be at any time during the grading process. World TrueView submissions tend to take longer, so I typically photograph those before they're graded. US coins are usually after, but I coordinate with our grading room to make sure things are as streamlined as possible. When I get the coins after they are graded, those grades are NOT FINALIZED, meaning they could still change.
My process is automated, so if for instance if I photograph and upload images for a regular submission as soon as they're received, the photos won't be sent out by the system until the coins ship. There are exceptions, that being reholder/TrueView orders. Since the grades of those coins are already final, the system sends them out shortly after I photograph, upload and assemble them. It's for that reason that I hold on to those orders a bit longer, since I can get some instant feedback sometimes.
I hope this clears some things up. >>
Thanks Phil!
The name is LEE!