Top of Switzerland

SYRACUSIAN · October 16, 2013 10:33PM

Sincona, auction 14, 5 pages of top inventory.

Anybody got something yesterday?

All the coins were graded by PCGS in SP64-67 in their vast majority as you can see in their detailed description.
I wonder if the consignor of the 1850 1/2, 1 and 5 francs in Heritage, wasn't the same as the consignor of this magnificent collection.

I remember owning a top pop 1897 20frs in PCGS MS67 and thinking of it as something special.
What I did not know when I bought it, was that there were two more versions of it, much rarer, one

the "Fore-lock. Struck in gold. With edge inscription! Divo 35. Of the highest rarity. Only 12 pieces struck.
PCGS SP66+. Specimen striking! Choice prooflike brilliant uncirculated. Cabinet piece. Finest known"

realized CHF 130000 hammer (~$145000)

and the "Gondogold"

realized CHF120000 hammer (~$133000)

"20 Francs 1897, Gondogold. Edge with 22 stars. Divo 35. Of the highest rarity. Only 29 pieces struck *).
PCGS SP66. Specimen striking! Choice prooflike brilliant uncirculated. Cabinet piece.
Top of Switzerland-Status: Until today the best known piece in this high end quality!
*) Referring to the mintage of 29 pieces, the 20 Francs 1897 struck in Gondogold is by far the rarest compared with the other two Gondgold strinkings dated 1893 and 1895."

An auction for the books.

AuroraRarities · October 17, 2013 3:42AM

Very interesting, especially that forelock piece.

The Swiss designs were among the first to pique my interest in world coins. The 20 franc are beautiful coins.

Thanks for posting!

Zohar · October 17, 2013 3:56AM

Dimitri has the best eye !

coinlieutenant · October 21, 2013 11:29AM

I thought about buying some coins out of that sale, but alas, nothing met the criteria. I am almost certain that the 1850 stuff came out of the same mint set sold at heritage and recently auctioned off in pieces by Heritage as well. I think I got the best piece....which was the 1850 half franc in PCGS MS68. All the others were subpar, with the exception of the five franc, which I would have wanted, but couldn't swing given the rarity and opportunity to find another better 1850 five.

SYRACUSIAN · October 21, 2013 7:12PM

I thought about buying some coins out of that sale, but alas, nothing met the criteria

John, perhaps nothing met your criteria, but, pls remember that all the coins were specimens (and graded by PCGS as such) and most of them were the finest in existence. This will be a landmark auction for Confederation Swiss coins for years to come. I will admit that the selection was not great in 5 francs, and certainly very poor in gold, but there were some terrific rarities or/and condition rarities, such as the first year of issue of Standing Helvetia in one franc PCGS SP65, or the 2 francs 1901 in SP65 that realized 46000 CHF, or the complete ultra rare 1896 set, with each coin bringing between 36000 and 100000 CHF, the 1910 superb specimen set, including the 10 francs gold plain edge in SP65, the best of 3 known,and the 10 frs gold reeded edge in SP64+, best of 4 known, the 1928 5 frs in SP65 at CHF 15000, finest known, (good luck in finding a better one, even though I know that you're not very fond of this design), plus so many patterns that would be too much to mention here.

I believe that if the images were truly representative, then PCGS was very harsh on some fivers. Even so, the 1896 realized 100000 CHF ($110K hammer).

I also enjoyed the particular uniform cabinet toning of the entire collection, even if it were the reason of one or two points less in final grading.

Then again, to each his own I think, and I believe that I understand why you limited your purchases to the outstanding 1850 MS68 half. Still, the 1916 half in PCGS SP67 must have tempted you a little.

As for me, I was glad to discover that my 1936 (Beck) half SP67 was 3 points above the one offered in that sale.

coinlieutenant · October 21, 2013 8:05PM

Of course...there were some fantastic coins....nothing "fit" into the collection is what I meant.

The biggest reason was the more that I read and study and learn about SP versus MS, the less I am willing to pay up for a SP....and nearly all of these were SP. Some landmark rarities for sure, but for me, for type purposes, everything was too expensive, and for the Five Franc collection, most were "lower" graded SP.

I was writing my first post literally as I was in bed shutting the computer. My choice of words was poor....and certainly not meant to sounds snobby.

I will go back and look at my notes...but I do remember Andy saying the 1 and 2 francs from 1857 were superior coins. Those would have been tempting for the type set....but too much money for me to spend on a type coin.

coinlieutenant · October 21, 2013 8:15PM

I really would like to know if the consignor did any shooting thalers. Would be pretty awesome to find some of those in uber condition....

Edited to add...

I was surprised at the hammer price on the 1896 Five Franc. It thought it was a steal at that price. Very rare coin for 100K....

MrEureka · October 22, 2013 6:35PM

`I did attend the sale, and I purchased about ten coins. None of the super-rarities, although I did get the two 1940 aluminum patterns. (Super rare coins, but the collectors are rarer.)

The most interesting things about the sale:

1. There were probably less than half a dozen floor bidders actively participating in the session. (Maybe 2-3 dozen bodies in the room, but most were apparently just waiting for the next session.) Very unusual for a sale of Swiss coins being sold in Switzerland.

2. PCGS seems to have a loose standard on where to draw the line on the "SP" designation for Swiss coins. Now, in all fairness, not even the greatest Swiss experts can agree on if the Swiss intentionally struck "Specimens" of most of these coins, much less how to identify them. But I can tell you that as a practical matter, my requirements for the SP designation are significantly more conservative than PCGS'. Perhaps that's because my uncertainty forces me to be too conservative. But I would argue that everyone, including PCGS, should be conservative on this matter, because we're all flying in the dark.

coinlieutenant · October 23, 2013 12:09AM

Thanks Andy for the information.

Can you explain your more conservative diagnostics that you look for?

Given no real record of production for presentation purposes, is it really luck of the draw for prooflike business strikes?
Lots of shooter seem to come prooflike...is there any record of special planchet preparation?

Quite fascinating really....but either way, makes me not want to fall into the "specimen mania" that sometimes arises...

MrEureka · October 23, 2013 12:56AM

Can you explain your more conservative diagnostics that you look for?

1. The degree to which the surfaces are mirrored.

2. The degree to which the coin's details are squared.

3. The flatness of the fields.

4. The sharpness of the reeding and rim. (This point may be only theoretical. I've never noticed a difference on Swiss coins, or even paid much attention to it.)

All of these could be explained by some combination of die preparation, die state and die pressure.

Frankly, without finding some historical sources to back up the Mint's intentions and/or practices, I'd have to see a lot more coins to feel that I knew enough to say with certainty that any of these coins are true "Specimens". But I'm willing to go with the flow and say which coins are "SP enough" for me, at least for now. And regardless what they "truly" are, the ones that I'd call SP are special enough to justify the premiums, regardless of whatever we decide to call them. I guess that's the bottom line.

One last caveat. I am hardly an expert on Swiss. I'm comfortable with my opinions, but they should not be taken as fact.

SYRACUSIAN · October 23, 2013 7:00AM

Andy, thank you for this very interesting input. I was wondering if you attended or not, and now it's confirmed.

Congrats on the ten purchases!

John, thank you too for elaborating and going to great lengths to explain your position towards this sale and specimens in general.

My only question is Mac's absence from this thread.

After all, it's because of him that Swiss coins attract me so much!

D

MacCrimmon · October 23, 2013 7:34AM

<< <i>Andy, thank you for this very interesting input. I was wondering if you attended or not, and now it's confirmed.

Congrats on the ten purchases!

John, thank you too for elaborating and going to great lengths to explain your position towards this sale and specimens in general.

My only question is Mac's absence from this thread.

After all, it's because of him that Swiss coins attract me so much!

D >>

Been busy....back later to throw in some tidbits, and images if you'd like.

One quickie I've mentioned before is that the 2 rappen EA strikes from at least the 1930s have the characteristics Andy described, and also the top bulb of the digit "2" on the reverse is a flat shelf. The business strikes have a rounded "bulb" on the top.

coinlieutenant · October 23, 2013 11:28PM

Doug,

Good points about the 2 rappen. Would love to be able to look at multiple specimens of some of the larger denoms to see if there is some sort of diagnostic. 2 rappens in the 30s were made in large numbers however and some of the early coins I would guess have only 1 die....

John

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