Study of 1875-CC trade dollars type I/II die marriages

shirohniichan

I was impressed with last month's thread "A study of the 1876 Trade Dollar Type 2/Type 2 Die Marriages", and I wanted to know if anyone has definitively examined the scarce '75-CC I/II trade dollar as well.

Relying on Breen is leaning on a thin reed indeed, so I take his claim that 20,000 were minted in December of 1875 with a pillar of salt. It's quite possible-- I just haven't seen the proof. Over the years I found two distinct type II reverses for the '75-CC, but I never looked for different obverses. The easiest way I distinguished the reverse dies was to look for a die scratch through the "F" in UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. One had it, and the other didn't. I haven't looked at the coins in so long I don't remember the mintmark positions or anything else that stood out. The only way I could identify the mintmark on one of my chopped 1875-dated trade dollars was to identify the crossed F. Without that indicator I would have guessed it was probably the far more common '75-S.

Has anone checked to see how many obverses were used?

Has anyone identified more than two reverse dies?

crypto79

There are 2 type 2 Rev dies known but I would go off of the mint mark location as if I recall not all on the one exhibit the die gouge. I personally put very little weight in any of Breen Reference numbers or rarity guesses. While a good place to start 25 years ago most have been disproved when exposed to any true scientific standards. As for the 20k mintage number I would guess it is at least 4-5x that. While scarce for sure they are out there and don't become rare until the UNC level of preservation.

stealer

It looks like I have a new project to pursue after my midterms tomorrow

keoj

Stealer,

Save your time. Two Reverses known....both married to the same obverse die. I can send you images if you would like to post them. They are close to one another but different.

keoj

DDR

It's not something I have delved into too deep, but I would be interested in seeing examples of the two Type II reverses if someone would post them.

shirohniichan

I'll have to boot up the PC I haven't used in 6 or 7 years to see if I still have images stored.

Any others want to guess at the original mintage figures for the type II?

Breen says 20,000.
Crypto says 80,000 to 100,000.

crypto79

The 2 known rev (pics courtesy of Keoj), they are very close but different



As for mintage, using the low mintage of the 73cc as a guide I would say I see about as many (or just a tad less)75cc type 1/2s on the market. Further more I see about 1 out of 10 total of 75cc have the type 2 rev although most high grade are the type 1.
Using those as lose guides

The 1.6m mintage of the 75cc would line it up with the 73cc which is 124k if the 10% (type one to type two) guess holds up
Two know rev lends its self to a more conservative 125-150 mintage with normal population loss factors making up the differences esp considering they were clearly used and exported at a high rate
The one obv die lends its self to a mintage if really not more than 80-100k (max die life) but most likely less.

The notion that the 75cc 1/2 was the great rarity of the hub series was something I think was popularized by jack bymer as he lead the way in popularizing the style of collecting. As far as I can tell the 75cc is the fourth hardest to come by hub variant

DDR

Based on some research I did a while back, I found that the percentage breakdown of Type I reverses to Type II reverses was 84 percent to 16 percent, or roughly 6:1.

With a mintage of 1,573,700, that would mean that about 250,000 with the Type II reverse were struck.

Bowers estimates a survival number of 4,000-8,000, so that would give us about 640-1280 surviving.

yosclimber

In the lower photo, the second C is further to the left,
judging by extending the right side of the D upward.
Or by drawing a line on the right side of the C and seeing how close it is to the comma.

crypto79

<< <i>Based on some research I did a while back, I found that the percentage breakdown of Type I reverses to Type II reverses was 84 percent to 16 percent, or roughly 6:1.

With a mintage of 1,573,700, that would mean that about 250,000 with the Type II reverse were struck.

Bowers estimates a survival number of 4,000-8,000, so that would give us about 640-1280 surviving. >>




I think with the import/export nature of the issue it's hard to directly correlate manufacturing runs vs survivorship. Considering how many went to china and suffered higher levels of attrition then followed by the recalls domestically later on, who knows. I do see mostly type 1s chop marks for what that's worth although there are type 2s out there with chops. I do not see a mintage of 250k supported with only one obv die used.

DDR

It's true that given the export and re-import (and in some cases re-export and re-re-import) nature of Trade dollars production numbers and survivorship don't always go hand-in-hand.

For my study, I looked at appearances in major auctions and eBay of 75-CC Trade dollars (and other dates) as well. I only counted them if they were in reputable TPG slabs, i.e. raw coins on eBay I ignored. I am not sure how many years I went back, but I counted 126 market appearances of 1875-CC Trade dollars over the past several years. Of the 126, 106 were I/I (84.1 percent); 20 were I/II (15.9).

Of the 106 I/Is, 10 were chopped. Of the 20 I/IIs, 0 were chopped. That's not to say I/II Trade dollars don't exist chopped, I have one.

Whatever the actual production/survivorship numbers are, the main point is that 75-CC I/II Trade dollars are probably not as rare as many people think.

DDR

Keoj can chime in here, but in his study published in the Gobrecht Journal, 29 out of 103 reported examples were I/II. That's a ratio of roughly 7 type I/Is to 3 I/IIs. However, Joe correctly noted that since it was a survey of Liberty Seated collectors, naturally it would be skewered a bit towards over reporting rarities, since that is what collectors are more likely to buy and hold on to. Joe estimated the real ratio to be at 10:1.

keoj

The ratio of Type I to Type II reverses always generates a lot of discussion. On an absolute basis, all grades considered, I have always gone with a ratio that is higher than what others think. In the 1:20 range. THis might be overstating the rarity and others will have a different opinion. Type II's are somewhat available in AU and lower but are extremely rare in MS grades. I've seen less than 8 mint state coins to date.

With respect to where I got my 1:20 range, it was based on a 2000 coin coin study of non-problem coins.

keoj

keoj

I stand corrected!!!!! Our own Stealer has found two more dies (I think) to the 75-CC Type II reverse.

Great work!!!