Question about Pistrucci's St. George design

brg5658

Many of you are familiar with Benedetto Pistrucci's design of St. George slaying the dragon, first used on British coinage in 1817, and still used today. Throughout the years, the same design (for all intents and purposes) was also used on the tokens issued by the Bank of Upper Canada in the 1850s for the Province of Canada.

The design is largely unchanged from its original save a few early modifications that had taken place by around 1820. The only large difference I see on these pieces is a component of the design that may (or may not) have significance, and I'm curious if anyone might have more insight.

From the back of St. George's helmet there are sometimes trailing "tassels" (or hair??), but other times this part of the design is absent. My questions are 2:

1) What exactly is this supposed to be (does it have a proper name)?

2) Why is it present sometimes, but not others?

Comparison images:


An example of the design as used in the 1850s on the Bank of Upper Canada tokens:

trozau

The original Piistrucci design has the streamer (term for the trailing ribbon) on the plumed helmet. In 1820, Pistrucci modified it to remove the streamer and was used in the Sovereigns of George IV. In 1887, it was put back on the Sovereigns of Victoria. The BRM has gone back to the NO streamer design beginning with the 2009 Sovereigns.

coinnuttius

Actually the number of streamers has also changed no and then. You can use it to spot fakes since the fakers often do not bother/know. I seem to remember that one of the UK gold seller websites has a discussion about it.. google is your frenemy.

brg5658

<< <i>The original Piistrucci design has the streamer (term for the trailing ribbon) on the plumed helmet. In 1820, Pistrucci modified it to remove the streamer and was used in the Sovereigns of George IV. In 1887, it was put back on the Sovereigns of Victoria. The BRM has gone back to the NO streamer design beginning with the 2009 Sovereigns. >>



Thanks for letting me know they are referred to as "streamers" -- but, question 2) still stands. WHY does the mint modify this part of the design, apparently "on a whim"?

It's odd to me that they remove and add it willy-nilly for no apparent reason. The 2013 full-sovereign's do not have the streamers, but the 2013 half-sovereign, 2013 quarter-sovereign, and 2013 silver 5 pound "Royal Birth" coins do have the streamers. I tried "google-ing" the topic, but didn't find much useful information.

Steve27

Yes, it appears they do it on a whim:

trozau

IIRC, all the silver Crowns always had the streamers. Same for all the 5 Sovereigns, 2 Sovereigns, 1/2 sovereigns and 1/4 Sovereigns (only issued since 2009). When the streamer was put back in 1887, Pistrucci was no longer associated with the Royal Mint. The decision to remove the streamer in 2009 is to go back to Pistrucci's last original design. I speculate that the Canada token used the current sovereign design of the time without the streamer (streamer put back in 1887, well after the 1850s token).

brg5658

<< <i>IIRC, all the silver Crowns always had the streamers. Same for all the 5 Sovereigns, 2 Sovereigns, 1/2 sovereigns and 1/4 Sovereigns (only issued since 2009). When the streamer was put back in 1887, Pistrucci was no longer associated with the Royal Mint. The decision to remove the streamer in 2009 is to go back to Pistrucci's last original design. I speculate that the Canada token used the current sovereign design of the time without the streamer (streamer put back in 1887, well after the 1850s token). >>



Pistrucci died in 1855, so you're correct he was "no longer associated with the Royal Mint".

trozau, Your information is extremely useful to describe the time periods and extent of when streamers were and were not included, but you haven't addressed any of the issue of WHY the RM does it on some pieces and not on others. That is, is there any significance to only the sovereign NOT having the streamers, while the other gold pieces do? Again, my question is related to reasoning, which so far, I haven't yet heard.

When the streamer was again removed in 2009, why didn't they remove it from all denomination of sovereigns? Makes no sense to me why they would modify one coin and not the series.

trozau

Here's info from the BRM on the 2009 return to the original Pistrucci sovereign designs...

Clickable Link

brg5658

<< <i>Here's info from the BRM on the 2009 return to the original Pistrucci sovereign designs...

Clickable Link >>



Great information, thanks very much trozau.

trozau

NP. Love those massive 5 Sovereign gold coins.

Weiss

Interesting...

Zohar

brg5658 very informative thread. Very neat design.

Gazza

I'll try and answer it with a question. Did the Royal mint issue coins in the same year with and without the streamers. If the answer is no then a likely reason could be fashion. The streamers simple fell in and out of use as fashions changed. maybe.....

brg5658

<< <i>I'll try and answer it with a question. Did the Royal mint issue coins in the same year with and without the streamers. If the answer is no then a likely reason could be fashion. The streamers simple fell in and out of use as fashions changed. maybe..... >>



Yes, they did. The 2013 sovereign does not have streamers -- the 2013 other issues do (.e.g, the 1/2, and 1/4 sovereign). So, try again; I don't think it's "fashion".

The only explanation I see is that there is no explanation.

trozau

Here are pics from the www of the 1820 patterns made by Benedetto Pistrucci:

1820 Pattern 2 Sovereign


1820 Pattern 5 Sovereign


I read somewhere that Pistrucci ran back to the mint (when he heard the bell toll announcing George III's death) to have the patterns struck.

Here's another from the www of another 1820 Pattern 2 Sovereign (check out the detail on that St George slaying the dragon)
Hmmm... I spy a W.W. on the left side of the ground. Methinks William Wyon may have engraved the 1820 Pattern 2 Sovereign. Very interesting.

LochNESS

I've always loved the St. George & Dragon design. But my favorite version is actually the 1935 "art deco" crown. I know, I know. Haters gonna hate! as they say

Anyway, there are many elements of the design which vary from year to year, not simply the streamers. If you look closely you can see the dimensions of the horse's body, the muscle definition, the details on the dragon, and the landscape all have subtle variations. I suspect the artists which rendered those copies of the original Pistrucci pattern were the ones responsible for removing and adding streamers on the helmet.

IMO the BRM doesn't make any decision lightly. Especially one which concerns its heritage, such as the Sovereign. If it turns out the BRM was responsible for these variations then it must've been due to a problem on the die and/or the mould used to make the die (if that's how they're made?). It's not really that surprising if you consider how many seemingly random variations exist in US coinage. All of them can be explained and yet on the surface all seem random and meaningless.