DNW And Brit Prices Gone Crazy!

7Jaguars

Especially Victorian, which is of course what I was looking at. A slightly earlier bit, the G3 Three Graces Pattern Crown went for 19k pounds plus the juice = about 35k USD. In my series of choice, the 1863 currency florin went for 14k pounds plus juice = about 25k USD! An interesting exception was the very nice (apparently from the photos at least) 1893 Jubilee 6d which looked to be in the AU58-MS61 range go for 2500 = 4500 USD.

There were many other examples, but what I am trying to figure out is who was or were the buyers? Most I know were shocked, and there were rumors that the Japanese were at it yet again. How on Earth does one decide catalog values in such an environment? I don't think they do!

RobP

Not only DNW. CNG had some fairly stratospheric prices tonight. When a fairly common EF hammered Ed.IV groat sells for around 7x the VF price, you have to take a step back and reflect - and certainly not buy on impulse.

Like many others, I didn't get anything yesterday at DNW, though prices today were a bit more reasonable and so I picked up a few.

JCMhouston

Well I wasn't one of the buyers! I left a few bids and didn't even get close, and I thought I was pretty strong on my bidding.

RobP

<< <i>Well I wasn't one of the buyers! I left a few bids and didn't even get close, and I thought I was pretty strong on my bidding. >>



I was following it along with GC and even he said 'I'm not going there'. By lot 10 it was obviously going to be carnage after the Chas.1 crown (lot 9) sold for £5K hammer

7Jaguars

I got one lot only today at double high estimate....Not likely to ever find another ever however.

MacCrimmon

<< <i>Especially Victorian, which is of course what I was looking at. A slightly earlier bit, the G3 Three Graces Pattern Crown went for 19k pounds plus the juice = about 35k USD. In my series of choice, the 1863 currency florin went for 14k pounds plus juice = about 25k USD! An interesting exception was the very nice (apparently from the photos at least) 1893 Jubilee 6d which looked to be in the AU58-MS61 range go for 2500 = 4500 USD.

There were many other examples, but what I am trying to figure out is who was or were the buyers? Most I know were shocked, and there were rumors that the Japanese were at it yet again. How on Earth does one decide catalog values in such an environment? I don't think they do! >>




Got a link to that 1863 florin?

BTW, I'm getting malware warnings on the DNW site.

7Jaguars

Well, my recall is that it was lot 1552. Sorry I am techno challenged with linkys and all! The bidding started slow and then heated up and went IMO crazy. Funny thing is that this coin strongly resembles that which I lost when my wife moved out and took everything not nailed down and a few things that were...

Gazza

I attended the Tuesday session and picked up the one lot I wanted, after beating off the Japanese opposition. I though it had filled the last big hole in my collection only to find the coin had been mis-attributed. It's going back tomorrow.

asp

<< <i>I attended the Tuesday session and picked up the one lot I wanted, after beating off the Japanese opposition. I though it had filled the last big hole in my collection only to find the coin had been mis-attributed. It's going back tomorrow. >>



Why were Japanese bidders going so high? Are British coins particularly popular in Japan?

7Jaguars

Yes, interesting. They (the Japanese) have had an ongoing, somewhat on and off interest in Brit coins and especially of Queen Victoria in silver and gold. The Tokyo "A" collection was and is to some extent a superb collection of crowns but there are other examples as well.

I remember some 12-15 years ago a poll was taken of Japanese men, and the sexiest woman in America was?????


Are you ready???


Janet Reno!

Evidently they like powerful women over there.....

OriginalDan

<< <i>
I remember some 12-15 years ago a poll was taken of Japanese men, and the sexiest woman in America was?????

Are you ready???

Janet Reno!

Evidently they like powerful women over there..... >>

EVillageProwler

I was floored by the prices in the CNG 94 auction. I chased the Harold II penny as much as I could, but in the end I had to give up. It hammered at $14k to bidder "Yorksphil", who also bid stratospherically on a few other lots (including the S-1184 in EF). I'm very sad that I lost on the H2 penny.

EVP

MacCrimmon

<< <i>Well, my recall is that it was lot 1552. Sorry I am techno challenged with linkys and all! The bidding started slow and then heated up and went IMO crazy. Funny thing is that this coin strongly resembles that which I lost when my wife moved out and took everything not nailed down and a few things that were... >>




Ah well, I'll grind through DNW's abysmal website later for a pic of this 1863 Gothic florin.



A friend gave me a heads up on the coin, but I had already destroyed the budget by procuring a newly discovered fabulous proof florin;


Victoria d: g: brit: --- reg: f: d: mdcccli


She's virtually flawless (lock PF67+ CAM with our hosts), and has the look of my auld '93 proof crown, the Blue Grotto......I'm still gobsmacked!

coinkat

Quality hammered remains very strong.

I did not see or follow the auction. What is sort of funny is that the George i and George II coinage is a bargain in comparison to Victoria

RobP

<< <i>I was floored by the prices in the CNG 94 auction. I chased the Harold II penny as much as I could, but in the end I had to give up. It hammered at $14k to bidder "Yorksphil", who also bid stratospherically on a few other lots (including the S-1184 in EF). I'm very sad that I lost on the H2 penny.

EVP >>



I noticed you were there earlier on. I also noticed Yorksphil was in danger of bankrupting himself judging by the number of bids he had on. It's a handle I don't recognise, but have recently encountered a Yorkshireman by the name of Phil who has appeared from nowhere. There may be a link - will have to do some digging. Those prices were crazy. The H2 is a £5-6K coin. I was also gobsmacked by the Ed.IV groat (1947) which was at $1800 the last time I looked. I don't know what it finished at, but with the juice was already over 7x the VF price. It was a nice coin, but not $2K nice. A toppy 1K would have sufficed given it's not rare.

RobP

<< <i>Quality hammered remains very strong.

I did not see or follow the auction. What is sort of funny is that the George i and George II coinage is a bargain in comparison to Victoria >>



G2 is strengthening relative to the other two. Better prices are being obtained for the commoner types, which may be a reflection of their relative affordability for the masses.

EVillageProwler

RobP - I valued that H2 at upwards of $10k, and was willing to exceed that (pay tomorrow's pricing) for two reasons: (1) I'd be establishing a new auction price point; and, (2) I figure I'd never need to upgrade from that piece and just hold onto it for the next 2 or 3 decades.

But when I saw $14k bid on my computer, it just broke my heart and my spirit. It was the worst I've felt in recent memory exceeded only by my divorce. Even assuming $15k bid would've gotten me the coin, I just don't think the numbers make any friggin sense. But I was so sure I was going to be that coin's next caretaker...

The silver lining is that I now know I'm not the craziest person around.

EVP

pruebas

EVP, while I don't know the specific coin under discussion, if it was rare enough and nice enough, why not just bite the bullet, swallow hard, and buy it? If it went to Asia, it probably won't be back in our lifetime, or perhaps ever. Japan has always been known as a coin black hole, though very recently those A-Tokyo coins have come out, which was a bit unusual.

The worst that could have happened is you might lose 20% in your 2-3 decade holding period, but more than likely not. And buying the coin is the only way to avoid that awful feeling you describe.

I've been there too.

What I find fascinating is the (apparent) resurgence of demand from Japan. I remember all the incredible world coins auctioned there in the 1980s. Multiples even, in the same auction!

SmEagle1795

<< <i>RobP - I valued that H2 at upwards of $10k, and was willing to exceed that (pay tomorrow's pricing) for two reasons: (1) I'd be establishing a new auction price point; and, (2) I figure I'd never need to upgrade from that piece and just hold onto it for the next 2 or 3 decades.

But when I saw $14k bid on my computer, it just broke my heart and my spirit. It was the worst I've felt in recent memory exceeded only by my divorce. Even assuming $15k bid would've gotten me the coin, I just don't think the numbers make any friggin sense. But I was so sure I was going to be that coin's next caretaker...

The silver lining is that I now know I'm not the craziest person around. >>




This exact scenario happened to me a couple months ago with my dream coin, an EID MAR denarius. I was in the bidding until close to the end, but then two people just kept bidding between each other into illogical levels. It is a very historic coin but it shattered me when I missed it as I did my homework and my bid was already excessively strong for the coin. I ended up finding the dealer who bought it at the ANA show and they said their client was willing to bid "whatever it took" to get the coin. I hate that there are people who will make these "unlimited" bids, not caring about the cost. Even if I had $10 billion, I would not just throw it around haphazardly. I know this is a fantastic situation for the consignor, but if it were me who consigned the coin, I would prefer to take less of a profit if I knew the coin was finding a good new home where it would be appreciated, not just stuffed in a closet next to a couple van Goghs.

I have another potentially similar situation happening next week with a coin that is tougher to find than the EID MAR and similarly priced. I've been lusting after the type for years and this particular coin has been on my radar for a solid six months now, and I've been purposefully selling several coins to "make room" for it. I've prepared another illogically high bid - I even spoke with a handful of trusted dealers and told them that I'd probably be willing to bid up to $X (when I'm actually willing to go to $X*3), and they said that $X was a very strong price for the coin.

If I don't get it at this level, I'm going to be very disappointed but will have to acknowledge that there are people who don't care about what they're paying.

RobP

£6K is around the $10K mark at the moment, so we aren't too far apart in valuation. There was another wild price on the Henry VIII groat with the lis mark. $300 estimate was at $2750 the last time I looked. That's also bizarre.

I think we have all pushed the boat out for something we really desire and don't expect to see any time soon. I've had to fight it out with CNG on a couple of occasions when multiples of book were bid. But these are usually coins where there is only one example available or maybe two at most. In these cases you have to bite the bullet.

Gazza

I actually took the day off work to go to the Tuesday auction as I could not guarentee to be online at the right moment. I went along with very deep pockets to get the 1935 proof crown, the last gap in my collection that I expect to be able to fill. I won the coin so you can imagine how dissappointed I was to find out that the crown was a 0.500 silver not the 0.925 as advertised.

nicholasz219

Gazza, that is disappointing. Sorry to hear that and hope the correct '35 shows its face shortly.

I participated in the weekly Heritage auction for some ancients that I thought would be accessible on my budget. I super failed as well, with some pretty common coins going for multiples of what they normally do. I am hoping that since this was my first auction with Heritage that I am just seeing auction prices higher on that website as a reliable source in general compared to individual sellers and the Bay. I'm not too familiar, so my learning curve right now is pretty sharp. I'm not collecting anything near the rarity that most of you are pursuing but I am getting a feel for it. I do know that a lot of my bids were hamstrung by the minimum buyer's fee of 17.5% or $14, whichever was higher. Since I am still in the foundational phase of my significant collections, a lot of the pieces that I want to add are simply not economical to add through that auction unless I get them for a total steal.

7Jaguars

Just curious, and maybe I should do my homework better but Gazza, how did you know it was a 0.500 vs. 0.925 without doing a specific gravity test? I have not been bold enough to take ESC too literally either, however.


And Mac, WOW! An 1851 florin! I was just not quite up to getting the one in the Spink 1999 sale, but they blew past me. Nice - maybe a picture sometime?

Gazza

Telling the difference between a 0.500 crown and 0.925 crown turns out to be supprisingly easy, if a bit nerve jangling. I am already the owner of a 0.500 proof although the currency peice would probably also do. I also own a 0.925 raised edge proof. What I did was, with a glove on and over something soft balanced two of the crowns, one on my middle finger and the other on my index finger. I then tapped them very gently with the plastic shaft of a very small modelmakers paint brush to make the coins ring. The two 0.500 crowns had a much higher ring than the 0.925. Simples.

EVillageProwler

<< <i>EVP, while I don't know the specific coin under discussion, if it was rare enough and nice enough, why not just bite the bullet, swallow hard, and buy it? If it went to Asia, it probably won't be back in our lifetime, or perhaps ever. Japan has always been known as a coin black hole, though very recently those A-Tokyo coins have come out, which was a bit unusual.

The worst that could have happened is you might lose 20% in your 2-3 decade holding period, but more than likely not. And buying the coin is the only way to avoid that awful feeling you describe.

I've been there too.

What I find fascinating is the (apparent) resurgence of demand from Japan. I remember all the incredible world coins auctioned there in the 1980s. Multiples even, in the same auction! >>



Pruebas - I have champagne tastes, but not really a champagne budget. I need to be realistic. If I can find an "aEF" H2 with similar fantastic eye appeal, then I would be satisfied with that too. Heritage has an H2 in its upcoming LB sale, NGC EF40, that really doesn't suit me.

However, I should confess that I do have loser's remorse. I could've pushed it a bit more. After all, what's "a little more broke" when one is already "broke"?

A veteran dealer (light side) once told me a story that I'll never forget: Tony Terranova once got into a bidding war with another old-time copper specialist. Tony lost that bidding war that day. Many years later, that other copper specialist passed away and the coin came back on the market. This time, Tony won the coin at a much lower price. The point of this story from that guy to me: be smart, be patient, for this is a marathon and not a sprint.

EVP

7Jaguars

Hi Gazza,

Glad you brought up the "ring" test. I remember in chemistry that they told us ?wrongly? that the higher pitch, the finer metal? Drop a clunker on the table of copper nickel and a much duller sound than a .900 or .925 coin. And that happens when I do it (well, not with proof rarities!) as well. A more clear ring I usually took to be higher resonance frequency. Not so for you?


BTW, I too have a 0.500 incuse edge proof. I believe these, along with the jumbled edge inscription proofs to not be as rare as ESC.

Nap

<< <i>

<< <i>EVP, while I don't know the specific coin under discussion, if it was rare enough and nice enough, why not just bite the bullet, swallow hard, and buy it? If it went to Asia, it probably won't be back in our lifetime, or perhaps ever. Japan has always been known as a coin black hole, though very recently those A-Tokyo coins have come out, which was a bit unusual.

The worst that could have happened is you might lose 20% in your 2-3 decade holding period, but more than likely not. And buying the coin is the only way to avoid that awful feeling you describe.

I've been there too.

What I find fascinating is the (apparent) resurgence of demand from Japan. I remember all the incredible world coins auctioned there in the 1980s. Multiples even, in the same auction! >>



Pruebas - I have champagne tastes, but not really a champagne budget. I need to be realistic. If I can find an "aEF" H2 with similar fantastic eye appeal, then I would be satisfied with that too. Heritage has an H2 in its upcoming LB sale, NGC EF40, that really doesn't suit me.

However, I should confess that I do have loser's remorse. I could've pushed it a bit more. After all, what's "a little more broke" when one is already "broke"?

A veteran dealer (light side) once told me a story that I'll never forget: Tony Terranova once got into a bidding war with another old-time copper specialist. Tony lost that bidding war that day. Many years later, that other copper specialist passed away and the coin came back on the market. This time, Tony won the coin at a much lower price. The point of this story from that guy to me: be smart, be patient, for this is a marathon and not a sprint.

EVP >>




Well said. The H2 penny was nice, but not so rare that you won't find another. I think it was wise move not to bid it to the moon. If you are just looking for a type, you will have other options. If you are looking to collect all the mints/moneyers, then, well you are a different kind of ill

There are 2 H2 pennies in this week's Spink, although admittedly they are not nearly as nice. They both have low estimates, but we shall see.

I feel like I got into Anglo-Saxons at a bad time...

EVillageProwler

I feel like I got into Anglo-Saxons at a bad time...

Yeah, tell me about it. They were so much cheaper 4 or 5 years ago.

MrEureka

The silver lining is that I now know I'm not the craziest person around.

This too shall pass.

marvinf

<< <i>Especially Victorian, which is of course what I was looking at. A slightly earlier bit, the G3 Three Graces Pattern Crown went for 19k pounds plus the juice = about 35k USD. In my series of choice, the 1863 currency florin went for 14k pounds plus juice = about 25k USD! An interesting exception was the very nice (apparently from the photos at least) 1893 Jubilee 6d which looked to be in the AU58-MS61 range go for 2500 = 4500 USD.

There were many other examples, but what I am trying to figure out is who was or were the buyers? Most I know were shocked, and there were rumors that the Japanese were at it yet again. How on Earth does one decide catalog values in such an environment? I don't think they do! >>



As I own a G3 Three Graces, I'm always interested in the price realized. Which auction was that? I went to the DNW site but could not locate a Three Graces in their most recent auctions. What condition was their 3G in, and was it slabbed?

7Jaguars

It was in the second day of sales & was not slabbed, possibly of "63" grade or so. Their search function is currently off.