Topps Football 1959 Second Series Question

VOTC

Does anyone know the card #'s that were single printed from the second series? I'd like to add it to this profile for the set here Thank you!

jmoran19

I dont believe any where, 88 cards in series each printed 3 times. Here is a good site for info

link

cards651

I'm not real familiar with that particular issue. However, most Topps 88-card or 176-card series had half the cards short printed. The 1972 Football high series (264-351), the 1969 Topps Baseball 5th Series (Cards 426-512) and 1980 Topps Basketball come to mind.

The latest issue of SMR claimed that the 66-card 1962 Topps Hockey cards were evenly printed. I think that is way, way off. (Do they even proofread SMR?) Kids could buy about 10 packs and complete the set. Would defeat the whole purpose of the card companies which was to separate parents from their hard-earned cash.

Always a topic that brings out some comments. Good luck with the 1959 Football. I collected it for awhile but quickly got sick of the design, particularly how they alternated the red and blue colors for each letter in the name. I got vertigo working on that set and gave it up.

Kevin M.

jmoran19

<< <i>I'm not real familiar with that particular issue. However, most Topps 88-card or 176-card series had half the cards short printed. The 1972 Football high series (264-351), the 1969 Topps Baseball 5th Series (Cards 426-512) and 1980 Topps Basketball come to mind.

The latest issue of SMR claimed that the 66-card 1962 Topps Hockey cards were evenly printed. I think that is way, way off. (Do they even proofread SMR?) Kids could buy about 10 packs and complete the set. Would defeat the whole purpose of the card companies which was to separate parents from their hard-earned cash.

Always a topic that brings out some comments. Good luck with the 1959 Football. I collected it for awhile but quickly got sick of the design, particularly how they alternated the red and blue colors for each letter in the name. I got vertigo working on that set and gave it up.

Kevin M. >>



Kevin, those are completely false statements. Any series that is 66/132 or 88 cards (87 if you exclude the DP checklist) is printed evenly.

a true sheet is 264 cards, not 132. 88 card series had each card printed 3 times. On the left half rows 1 thru 4 were repeated in rows 9 thru 12. On the right half rows 5 thru 8 from the left side were printed in rows 1 - 4 and 9 - 12 and the double prints from the left half were printed once on the right half.

jmoran19

For Kevin

cards651

j - I knew this subject would draw some comments. A couple of thoughts:

1. The existence of an uncut sheet ignores the possibility that there could be other sheets. The fact that you have a 264-card sheet simply does not prove that all cards were printed equally.

2. Here's a 66 card Topps FB sheet from a 528-card set. 1976 Topps FB 66-Card Sheet Why would a company be printing 66-card, 132-card and/or 264-card sheets? The answer would seem to be so that they can vary the number of cards and not distribute them equally. The easiest way to sell more cards was to print unequal numbers. Why would a card company ever print equally? It would reduce sales.

3. If anyone has a link to a 132-card 1980 Topps basketball uncut sheet, it would help. Perhaps because it is newer, this set is generally accepted to have half the cards double printed. There are 88 different cards on the 132-card sheet. 44 are double printed. Presumably there is a second 132-card sheet using the same approach in order to get to the 176-card total. Why would Topps suddenly start short-printing half a set beginning in 1980?

Anyway, always a good topic but while my initial comments are not Gospel by any means, they are not 'completely false' either. - Kevin M.

jmoran19

<< <i>j - I knew this subject would draw some comments. A couple of thoughts:


2. Here's a 66 card Topps FB sheet from a 528-card set. 1976 Topps FB 66-Card Sheet Why would a company be printing 66-card, 132-card and/or 264-card sheets? The answer would seem to be so that they can vary the number of cards and not distribute them equally. The easiest way to sell more cards was to print unequal numbers. Why would a card company ever print equally? M. >>



Uh, you know that is a proof sheet not a sheet to be cut up for distribution.

Yes some other companies purposely have short printed or even excluded a card but Every Topps series containing either 66, 87/88 or 131/132 cards printed each card equally excluding CL's. This includes sets that are 263/264 or 528 or 660 total cards.

Excluding the 1st series all CL they all were double printed, once in the preceding series and once with the current series. The 1971 coin CL was also printed in the 3rd and 4th series.

Finally, the 1980 bball set had each card printed 3 times on 2 different 264 card sheets. 176 x 3 = 528/2 = 264

cards651

j - I'm no printing expert but the Internet dictionary says a proof sheet is 'A trial sheet of printed material made to be checked and corrected'

Are you suggesting that Topps would 'proof' a sheet that they had no intention of actually using?

Would Topps then produce another 132-card or 264-card sheet without proofing it?

I know I can't convince you that Topps short-printed cards but this was a company that literally monopolized the 'baseball card' market for many years. I find it far more likely that they short-printed as opposed to printing evenly. Even Beckett lists numerous cards as DP or double printed. 1980 Topps basketball is accepted by almost everyone as being half short printed. We may have to agree to disagree.

Kevin M.

jmoran19

I'm not debating when a series is 55 or 77 or 110 cards, there are definitely double prints and I have pictures of basically every topps uncut sheet from 1960 thru 1979 for baseball, football and basketball that proves that.

I'm trying to tell you when a series is 66 (1962 hockey)or 88 (1972 series 3 FB) or 132 cards there are NO short prints, see your first post. Here is visual evidence of the 1972 FB High series

cards651

j - My eyes aren't the best so correct me if I'm wrong here:

1. You are showing two (2) 132-card uncut sheets.
2. There are three (3) versions of each card on each sheet.
3. This gives us 44 unique cards on sheet 1 and 44 unique cards on sheet 2 for a total of 88 unique cards.

Here's my question:
What happens if Topps prints twice as many of sheet 1 compared to sheet 2?

cards651

j - For 176 card sets, the 1972 Topps Hockey #100 Bobby Orr is listed as a Double Print by Beckett.
People even use it in their eBay listings:
1972 Topps Orr #100

Is Beckett somehow wrong on this?

jmoran19

I have no idea about Orr or hockey but we aren't discussing 176 card sets, we are talking about 88 card series, 132 card series and 66 card series/sets, which for the record every major publication will tell you the same thing, there are NO SHORT PRINTS.

Topps didn't need to create perceived shortages before 1981, they basically were the only game in town. If they needed to generate sales they printed different things like wacky packs, partridge family, Brady bunch, monster laugh cards etc., plus by the time a certain series hit the shelves they were already printing a new series or a new sports.

Here's one more piece of evidence and then I'm done with the conspiracy nonsense. I picked 2 1972 3rd series Non hall of fame cards, one from each sheet posted above and although they were random I wanted to use players from the same team. Preston Pearson #306 has 175 graded examples in the pop. report. Andy Russell #330 has 184 examples.

cards651

j - This is a great topic but we may have to agree to disagree. I appreciate the full sheet scans. There is no conspiracy involved. Beckett lists many cards as DP. That is how cards were produced. A 176-card set is basically two 88-card sets. Just like a 132-card set is basically two 66-card sets. Always an interesting topic. Best of luck with your collecting. - Kevin M.

P.S. The count of graded examples is useless as that is determined by collectors that send in cards. That does not measure how many cards were actually produced. Under this theory Topps produced about 500 times as many Walter Payton rookies compared to other cards in the 1976 FB set. Not possible. Raw cards are the key my friend...

1976 Topps FB Vikes Checklist

jmoran19

OMG yes there are DP's , I'm not disputing that when a series is 77 cards like 1967 high numbers or 110 cards like 1968 and 1969 series one.

What I'm trying to tell you is when a series is 66 or 87/88 or 131/132 cards each card is printed in equal numbers excluding a checklist

And yes that is me in the contributor notes

History of topps

P.S. And basic economics explains why there are more hall of fame rookie cards sent in for grading than common cards, they sell for more!

cards651

Best of luck j. As a well-known collector implores us, Never Get Cheated - Kevin M.

jay0791

I have an older 1995 big beckett of FB cards.
In the 1959 topps set there are no SP's listed next to card #'s and players.

In other sets such as 1955, 1956,1962, 1963, 1964 1965....they list cards as SP's

No SP's listed after 1965